Shumei he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 This is my first post here, though I've been lurking for a while. I couldn't find an obvious answer to this question on the wiki, etc., so I thought I would pose it here: Does anyone know (or has anyone asked Brandon or Peter) how large the gem inside of each denomination of sphere is? I. e., how many carats to a broam, how many carats to a mark, how many carats to a chip? Do these values vary between the different gems? Are the sizes fixed exactly, or do they vary within a set range for each level of value? I don't expect that anyone has answers to these questions yet, but I thought I would pose them for future consideration. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) No idea on the karats, but I'm pretty sure that gems are much more common, and thus much cheaper, than in the real world. for example, I wouldn't be surprised if a diamond chip (the smaller coin) contained one karat worth of diamond. which in the real world would be worth a few tens to a few hundreds euros depending on quality and cut. In fact, a chip can hardly contain less than one karat (roughly 0.2 grams); a smaller peice would be difficult to see and to handle. As for an equivalent value, the way they are used make me think that a diamond chip would be worth 2 to 5 euros at purchasing power parity. EDIT: the majority of you americans can easily change "euros" with "dollars" and be fine with it. those estimates are approximate enough that the exchange difference between euro and dollar isn't a big deal Edited January 23, 2014 by king of nowhere 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I am pretty sure they have never been asked, but it's entirely possible that Brandon has all those things worked out - he did say he spent a lot of time researching gems. Maybe we can abuse the fact that Peter lurks around here and get some info out of him? Either that, or somebody could ask at a signing, which will likely lead to PAFO anyway (if the information exists). So, Peter, might as well save Brandon some trouble and give us the goods 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha'man Logain Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I really like this question for some reason. If it has not been answered by April I'll ask at JordanCon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 It would have to be based on carat almost exclusively. The actual value of a gem IRL is strongly affected by cut and clarity. As to the overall size, it should be remembered that spheres are roughly the size of a thumbnail, so even in a broam, the gemstone will not be particularly large. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I am pretty sure they have never been asked, but it's entirely possible that Brandon has all those things worked out - he did say he spent a lot of time researching gems. Maybe we can abuse the fact that Peter lurks around here and get some info out of him? Either that, or somebody could ask at a signing, which will likely lead to PAFO anyway (if the information exists). So, Peter, might as well save Brandon some trouble and give us the goods Good idea. let's pile some wood and do smoke signs to catch his attention =) I also heard that if you speak his family name backward five times he will be automatic summoned Side question, Who they fix the gem in the middle(precisely) of the glass, I always had trouble to imagine how would look like a sphere in real life (if someone have a picture or ilustration plx drop here) On diamond carat are a veryyyy tiny thing, I know that it's a "magic" diamond but to be able to see a diamond inside a glass sphere I always believed that you would need at least a few carats worthly gem, after all they have head sized gems there =) Edited January 23, 2014 by Natans 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I don't think it's possible to answer such a question. The spheres will be useless here since we have no stormlight for them to hold. Also, spheres are very common on Roshar which means diamonds there must be cheap. It's impossible to measure how common they are and then compare them to something as common on Earth. Even if we know how many karats a sphere is worth, doesn't mean it's as valuable as the same karat gem here. It's possible to measure the value in a more accurate way: what can someone buy with a broam on Roshar for example. This is not the same as saying how many dollars a broam is worth, because our world are very different, just remember how Jasnah hadn't seen a strawberry jam. So strawberries are much more rear than diamonds on Roshar, therefor more valuable than in our world. We can sell them strawberries for diamonds 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Another fly in the ointment is that I don't recall seeing much in the way of gemstones being used as jewelry. This is the chief reason why gemstones are of such value IRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Side question, Who they fix the gem in the middle(precisely) of the glass, I always had trouble to imagine how would look like a sphere in real life (if someone have a picture or ilustration plx drop here) The only description I can think of comes from one of Shallan's earlier chapters: Before this trip, she’d never used money; she’d just admired the spheres for their beauty. Each one was composed of a glass bead a little larger than a person’s thumbnail with a much smaller gemstone set at the center. The gemstones could absorb Stormlight, and that made the spheres glow. I am almost certain there was a part somewhere (maybe in another one of her chapters?) that explain how each sphere had was flattened a little on one of the "sides" so they don't roll when you put them on a table... but I can't find this passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Kaladin narrowed his eyes as the apothecary fished two marks out of his money pouch, setting them on the table. Like many spheres, these were flattened slightly on one side to keep them from rolling away. Chapter 27. I guess not all of them are flattened on a side, since it only says "many". On the main topic, I think it would be impossible to know without knowing the exact size, color, cut, and clarity of the gems, which may be either fairly uniform, or highly variable. We're told the purchasing power is about 1 diamond chip for a loaf of bread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I think it's expecting too much to relate the value of spheres to real-world gemstones. As has been mentioned, gems seem far, far more prevalent on Roshar; this is likely because they're a renewable resource, since the various greatshells all grow them inside as gemhearts. For another thing, we know the relative value of 5 of the ten gemstones, and those values are nothing like they would be on earth. 1 emerald = 2 sapphires = 5 rubies = 10 garnets = 50 diamonds. I think Peter has posted somewhere that the other 5 stones are also used for currency, and have value equal to the numbers above, but we just don't know which one goes where. The gems on Jasnah's soulcaster are described as thumbnail-sized as well, and even though they're described as very valuable, gems that size would be nearly unique on earth. For comparison, we know Elhokar pulled an emerald the size of his head out of the chasmfiend, while in reality, you could easily hold the Hope Diamond in the palm of your hand. Edited January 23, 2014 by 11thorderknight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ccstat he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I'm going to take a stab at the relative sizes of broams, marks, and chips. While this has been discussed before, I'm going to try a new approach. Making some admittedly tenuous assumptions, I'm going to try to use the "brightness" of the spheres to estimate their sizes.I don't have a searchable WoK, so if anyone else wants to double check my quotes and improve on this reasoning, I welcome the corrections. My basic assumption is that the luminosity of an infused gem is proportional to its size. We know that a mark is almost as bright as a candle. The luminosity of a candle is ~1 candela, which, assuming it shines in all directions, is about 12.5 lumens, giving ~4 lux of illumination at a distance of half a meter. As an upper limit, a broam will not be more than 5x the size of a mark, or it would have been cut down to 5 marks plus chips from the waste, giving a profit. (Good arguments can be made for the ratio to be lower). Using this upper limit, if the broam is 5x as bright as a mark, it provides ~20 lux at half a meter. Reading is uncomfortable below 50 lux, and difficult below 10 lux, even when the eyes are adapted to dim room lighting (reference). Modern home and office lighting guidelines are for 300-600 lux for study and reading (reference). This makes sense, as at one point Shallan "was forced to use gems of all 9 colors and all 3 sizes" to fill up her lighting goblet to read and write by. If I remember correctly, at this point she only has 1 or 2 broams left, so for argument's sake let's say she has 2 broams, 9 marks, and assorted chips, making for ~80 lux. (Illuminance decreases with the square of distance, so if she scooted in and was only .25 meters from the goblet of spheres, she would have 4x the amount of light. That is about 10 inches, which puts her awkwardly close to the light source if she also has to worry about pen and ink, etc.) If anyone finds more references for the spheres used as indoor lighting, please post them to help refine this. The next piece comes from a comparison in the released WoR chapters. I'm spoilering both the quote and my analysis since we're not in that subforum, but seriously, this doesn't amount to much of a spoiler. My math is probably a better reason to hide all this: EDIT: It turns out, after reading all of WoR, that Kaladin was holding a broam. That makes the following comparison between the submerged broam and the sphere he held pretty meaningless in the context of comparing gem sizes. The rest of this spoiler is based on the assumption that they were different denominations. Kaladin closed his hand around his sphere, bringing near-darkness to the cavernous space. It was day above, but that crack of sky was distant, unreachable.[...] The pool in front of him glowed a deep violet. He’d noticed it earlier, but in the light of his sphere it had been harder to see. Now, in the dimness, the pool could reveal its eerie radiance. [...Syl] glowed more softly than the weakest of spheres, but it was enough to light his finger. [...] Kaladin [fished] in the pool. He came out with an amethyst broam and held it up. Two things: first, Syl is less bright than a weak, run-down chip, and she can illuminate a finger in a dim chasm. I'm going to make my assumptions for the broadest range possible. Some of these assumptions actually make a difference to the result, but others are just for convenience of thinking through the problem. Assumption: the light in the chasm is dark, but brighter than a moonlit night, placing it at at least 1 lux (ref). Assumption: To count as illumination, Syl must cast at least 5 lux of light halfway down Kal's finger (5cm). Calculating backward, this puts her in the neighborhood of .01 candelas, or 1/100th as bright as a candle. Broad interpretation: run-down chips are at least 2x as bright as Syl, or 1/50th as bright as a fully infused mark. Second, the light from the sphere he was holding was bright enough to make the broam's light difficult to see. There are a lot of unknowns here, such as K's distance from the pool, the pool's size and depth, and most importantly whether K's sphere was a mark or a chip. At visible wavelengths, especially on the blue end of the spectrum, the absorption coefficient of water is negligible for the depths we're considering. I'm going to guess Kaladin was one step (1m) away from the pool, and he was holding a mark (I really think it would be a chip, but we saw him use marks in the chasms in WoK ch 59, and assuming a mark here gives us the broadest possible range). Both spheres are fully (or at least equally) infused. The pool is 1 m across, and the broam is in the middle, 5-10 cm below the surface. There are probably better ways to calculate this, but Kaladin observed the whole pool to be glowing. Diffusing the light across the surface of a 1m pool (area~.8m^2) reduces the luminance to (assume 5 candela for argument, though this number won't matter too much) about 6.5 cd/m^2, which is less than 1/20th as bright as a laptop LCD display. To make that hard to notice, the illuminance on the surface of the pool from Kaladin's sphere would have to be at least as bright (ignoring the diminution of light intensity by reflection and absorbance, mostly since I don't know good ballpark numbers to plug in for those). This forces the sphere he's holding to have a luminance of at least 1 candela, or 1/5th the luminance of the one in the pool (the ratio postulated at the beginning). That means the broam can be up to 5x the size of what Kal is holding. If he has a mark, that is the upper limit we chose above for economic reasons. If he is holding a chip, though, that makes the gem in a broam 5x the mass of a chip gem, and a mark falls somewhere in the middle. Clearly, there is a lot of ballpark figuring here, but I'm guessing other scenes can help us narrow in the windows of plausibility. Also, wow! I spent way too much time on this. Is there anyone with more experience in lighting who can help me out here? EDIT: Here is another WoK quote: A broam—the highest denomination of sphere—glowed with about the same light as several candles. "Several" can be interpreted variously, but is generally used to mean 3 or 4. So a broam is probably on the order of 3x the size of a mark. (Although, since a mark is only "almost as bright" as a candle, a good argument can still be made for 5.) With a nominal currency value of 4 marks, that is also a very plausible ratio for their gem sizes. Edited April 11, 2014 by ccstat 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Nice thought experiment ccstat +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamantame he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Well are we measuring the gem value, or its appliances from it absorbing Stormlight? If it's value, I am guessing that diamonds will probably worth the most, and for its Stormlight uses well this is our Earth we are talking about. If we are that rich using diamonds and emeralds for lighting we probably have a currency based on chocolate just for the thrills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironeyes he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 No, the value of gems in Vorin lands is based on what they can Soulcast. Thus emerald, which can make food, is at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 We are told the relative values of chips, marks and broams: 1 broam = 4 marks; 1 mark = 5 chips; therefore, 1 broam = 20 chips. This is for spheres of the same gemstone, obviously. Add in the difference between gemstones, and you get the extremes of 1 emerald broam = 1000 diamond chips. Which is actually a pretty big spread for currency. We're told in WoK that a firemark is a week's wages for a sailor, which means that a firechip is one day's wages (Rosharan week has 5 days). A ruby is worth 10 diamonds, so a firechip = 10 clearchips. That means that a sailor, which is probably a reasonably-paid working class job on Roshar, gets 10 clearchips a day. Now, I assume they also get room and board on the ship, but still, that puts a lower limit on what a clearchip can reasonably buy (i.e. it can't be worth our equivalent of a penny, or even a dollar, just because it's the lowest denomination of currency). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Why are sapphires worth so much, if they only Soulcast air? Is it because they break in Shardplate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) We are told the relative values of chips, marks and broams: 1 broam = 4 marks; 1 mark = 5 chips; therefore, 1 broam = 20 chips. This is for spheres of the same gemstone, obviously. Add in the difference between gemstones, and you get the extremes of 1 emerald broam = 1000 diamond chips. Which is actually a pretty big spread for currency. We're told in WoK that a firemark is a week's wages for a sailor, which means that a firechip is one day's wages (Rosharan week has 5 days). A ruby is worth 10 diamonds, so a firechip = 10 clearchips. That means that a sailor, which is probably a reasonably-paid working class job on Roshar, gets 10 clearchips a day. Now, I assume they also get room and board on the ship, but still, that puts a lower limit on what a clearchip can reasonably buy (i.e. it can't be worth our equivalent of a penny, or even a dollar, just because it's the lowest denomination of currency). In some point was said that 1 clearchip are enough to buy a bread loaf. Google are our friend (and I think better use U$ to compare this) and it says: How much a loaf of bread costs depends on where you live and the type of bread you choose. A store brand can cost 1.99 to 2.49. A premium brand could cost 3.99 or more per loaf. If Let say that the production cost and everthing else are similar so a clear chipwould be U$2.00/4.00 A emerald broam U$2000 to U$4000. My guess U$3000 Edited January 24, 2014 by Natans 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Another fly in the ointment is that I don't recall seeing much in the way of gemstones being used as jewelry. This is the chief reason why gemstones are of such value IRL. There are a couple points where gemstones as jewelry are mentioned. From the WoK prologue: Their pure black hair was pinned up atop their heads, either in intricate weavings of braids or in loose piles. It was often woven with gold ribbons or ornaments, along with gems that glowed with Stormlight. From WoK Chapter 22: The gems in her [Navani] hair--which was streaked with a few lines of grey--were red as well. From WoK Chapter 54: A faintly glowing ruby sat on each of his [Highprince Hatham's] fingers... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Excellent quotiness Weiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 In some point was said that 1 clearchip are enough to buy a bread loaf. Google are our friend (and I think better use U$ to compare this) and it says: How much a loaf of bread costs depends on where you live and the type of bread you choose. A store brand can cost 1.99 to 2.49. A premium brand could cost 3.99 or more per loaf. If Let say that the production cost and everthing else are similar so a clear chipwould be U$2.00/4.00 A emerald broam U$2000 to U$4000. My guess U$3000 I remember that quote as well. Remember, though, when Shallan went to buy books, she spent a bunch of emerald broams on them; that's like, at least 10,000 dollars equivalent. For books. Now, it's true that they probably don't have printing technology so the books are all hand-copied. But still. Also, for someone who's supposed to be broke, that's a lot of cash to carry around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I remember that quote as well. Remember, though, when Shallan went to buy books, she spent a bunch of emerald broams on them; that's like, at least 10,000 dollars equivalent. For books. Now, it's true that they probably don't have printing technology so the books are all hand-copied. But still. Also, for someone who's supposed to be broke, that's a lot of cash to carry around. Of note is that bread almost surely costs a different amount to make in Roshar. Efficient farming has brought the price down for us in modern times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty she/her Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Of note is that bread almost surely costs a different amount to make in Roshar. Efficient farming has brought the price down for us in modern times. It probably would be better to compare the price of Rosharan bread to the price of bread before the industrial revolution. that technology level would probably match Roshar better anyway. maybe compare the cost of hand-written books back then too for a better baseline for emerald broams. So, who has studied pre-modern economy? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 The relative values of various commodities is likely to be so different from modern times to pre-modern times that it will be very challenging to ascribe any kind of meaningful value comparison. And that is without taking into account the relative differences in scarcity and demand of these commodities between Earth and Roshar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) The relative values of various commodities is likely to be so different from modern times to pre-modern times that it will be very challenging to ascribe any kind of meaningful value comparison. And that is without taking into account the relative differences in scarcity and demand of these commodities between Earth and Roshar. Agree. But bread are the kind of thing that are bound to have less flutuation given the fact that this is one of the most basic human needs. One must earn enough to buy his food at least. So of all things that we could compare (Bread, medical supply(Kaladin) and books(Shallan)) that is the best one. But even so that is no more than an educate guess, because for sure Roshar bread and our own must cost different =) PS: End of the side discussion Edited January 24, 2014 by Natans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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