Parshendi Genocide

[Maximus]

I was referring to the Parshendi fears of the return of their dark gods.  They assassinated the king of arguably the most powerful nation in Roshar to prevent him from taken some action that they perceived would lead to that result.   Even with the knowledge that it would almost certainly lead to a devastating war.

 

Right, but that says nothing about who gets taken over. We know nothing about the nature of those dark gods as far as I am aware.

 

Edit: In fact here's a scenario: Perhaps their dark gods are voidspren that can take over "slave form" Parshen, turning them into monsters and triggering a genocide by the humans against the Parshendi.

 

Edit2: Moving this to a more appropriate thread, I can think of few things the Oduim we know would like to cause more than a genocide. He may have already had one on Aimia. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Why not seek a way to prevent Odium from possessing them? If they just slaughter the Parshendi, what stops Odium from finding another way to bring Desolation? They should find a cure for the cause, not the symptoms. 

 

That is great, if they have time or the information that could lead to such a plan.  Jasnah's plan suggests that they have neither.  By all appearances the Voidbringers are a facet of Odium's forces.  I think Jasnah is likely aware of this.  I doubt her plan is to stop the desolation.  Consider though, if you were faced with an army and had an opportunity destroy a substantial portion of that army, would you not take that opportunity because it would not stop the war?

 

 

Right, but that says nothing about who gets taken over. We know nothing about the nature of those dark gods as far as I am aware.

 

Edit: In fact here's a scenario: Perhaps their dark gods are voidspren that can take over "slave form" Parshen, turning them into monsters and triggering a genocide by the humans against the Parshendi.

 

Edit2: Moving this to a more appropriate thread, I can think of few things the Oduim we know would like to cause more than a genocide. He may have already had one on Aimia. 

 

Whether, Odium can take over the Parshendi or only the Parshmen is largely irrelevant to the topic.  Jasnah's primary concern is the Parshmen who are disseminated everywhere throughout Alethkar and whom could make a devastating and simultaneous attack everywhere  and where such an attack would largely be unanswerable or unpreventable without either ejection or extermination of the Parshmen from Alethi life.

[Aleksiel]

 “The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”

—Collected on the first day of the week Palah of the month Shash of the year 1171, thirty-one seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed pregnant woman of middle years. The child did not survive.

 

Sounds more like whoever was impersonated by the dying woman can be possessed. I don't think we have anything to connect the death rattles to the Parshendi.  

[Shardlet he/him]

That one seems to me to be from the perspective of a spren.

[Aleksiel]

Why do you think that?

[Maximus]

Whether, Odium can take over the Parshendi or only the Parshmen is largely irrelevant to the topic.  Jasnah's primary concern is the Parshmen who are disseminated everywhere throughout Alethkar and whom could make a devastating and simultaneous attack everywhere  and where such an attack would largely be unanswerable or unpreventable without either ejection or extermination of the Parshmen from Alethi life.

 

The point is that a moral and thinking person such as Jasnah would not immediately jump to the final solution when there are so many possible scenarios where that is not only unnecessary, but the opposite of a solution.

 

Based on what we think we know of Odium, there are few things he would enjoy more than a good old genocide. He may have already had one on Aimia.

[Shardlet he/him]

The point is that a moral and thinking person such as Jasnah would not immediately jump to the final solution when there are so many possible scenarios where that is not only unnecessary, but the opposite of a solution.

 

And yet, expulsion and/or extermination is the path she advocates.  This really has been an underlying facet of many of the arguments that I have presented.  Jasnah seeks to find facts in what may be flawed accounts.  She is of an order of scholars which do not take things at face value.  Such people tend not to be reactionary and leap to conclusions.  She seems to be thoughtful, studious, and cynical.  She would not leap to expulsion/genocide of the Parshmen unless she felt she had a solid basis of the necessity.

 

As to Odium, I do not say any indication that Jasnah is aware of Odium or his intent at all.

 

 

 

Why do you think that?

 

The spren have hard feelings towards humans apparently due to the Recreance.  The invocation of the Stormfather also suggests this to me in light of Syl's information that we just got.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Shardlet

[Aleksiel]

The spren have hard feelings towards humans apparently due to the Recreance.  The invocation of the Stormfather also suggests this to me in light of Syl's information that we just got.

 

Plenty of people in the book mention him as a figure of speech and curse using 'storms'. It's a Roshar thing. However, there are certain death rattles that indicate some connection to the Heralds and KR like this one:

 

“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”

 

Also, there are some that sugges physical form as well

 

 

“I’m standing over the body of a brother. I’m weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?”

 

 

 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

 

I find it highly unlikely death rattles belonging to spren.

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't see any indication that they belong to any one group of people.  Most are ambiguous.  Only a few can be directly related to a specific person or even one of a group of people.  I don't see any reason to rule out spren.  Nahel spren are thinking, self-determining beings as well.  With personalities, desires, opinions, joys and sadnesses.  Why do you find it so unlikely?

 

Edit: Though, I'm not sure how any of this relates to the topic at hand.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Shardlet

[Aleksiel]

I don't see any indication that they belong to any one group of people.  Most are ambiguous.  Only a few can be directly related to a specific person or even one of a group of people.  I don't see any reason to rule out spren.  Nahel spren are thinking, self-determining beings as well.  With personalities, desires, opinions, joys and sadnesses.  Why do you find it so unlikely?

 

Edit: Though, I'm not sure how any of this relates to the topic at hand.

 

It is relevant because a death rattle mentioned possession and a thousand days count down to the Everstorm. If we figure out who they belong to, we know who gets possessed by Odium and thus we can either confirm or rule out the need of Parshendi genocide.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Is it just me or could those last two death rattles Aleksial posted be humans after the last desolation regretting having to kill parshendi (dead brother) or debating weather to finish the genenocide (the baby)? Possibly my perspective being skewed by the thread topic

Edited January 24, 2014 by Awesomeness summoned

[Shardlet he/him]

I think the second one very clearly could refer to an action taken during genocide.  I find it to be very foreboding in light of Jasnah's efforts.

 

The one about the blood seems unlikely to me since Parsh blood is a different color than human blood.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Shardlet

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

 The one about the blood seems unlikely to me since Parsh blood is a different color than human blood.

Yeah, I'd forgotten their blood was different so not likely the first one

[Shardlet he/him]

It is relevant because a death rattle mentioned possession and a thousand days count down to the Everstorm. If we figure out who they belong to, we know who gets possessed by Odium and thus we can either confirm or rule out the need of Parshendi genocide.

 

Ah, I see now what you were saying.  Well, 1) Taravangian is the one collecting the quotes and by all appearances does not intend to share.  So, Jasnah or other Alethi would not have access to such information.  And 2) While we do not have anything to tie the Parsh to the death rattles, we also do not have anything to divorce them from them as well.

[Aleksiel]

Ah, I see now what you were saying.  Well, 1) Taravangian is the one collecting the quotes and by all appearances does not intend to share.  So, Jasnah or other Alethi would not have access to such information.  And 2) While we do not have anything to tie the Parsh to the death rattles, we also do not have anything to divorce them from them as well.

 

You are right, but when I said 'we' I didn't mean Jasnah or any Alethi. I understand they have no use of information they don't have, but we (the readers) can speculate using all the knowledge we have. So we can find out whether a genocide is justified or not regardless of what characters chose to do.

[Arondell]

Call me contrarian but I have the suspicion that any attempt at genocide wouldn't work.  Regardless of the morality of the issue.  If the Parshendi truly are the void bringers then they are effectively Odium's primary tools to achieve victory on Roshar.   I can't imagine he would allow their complete destruction.  On top of that both the Radiants and the Heralds before the Radiants showed up were either unable or unwilling for whatever reason to exterminate the Parshendi in any prior desolation.

 

I suspect the agreement implied to exist between Honor and Odium in the prologue to WoK is still at work here.  We the readers are working with far to little information to really make an informed judgement on the issue.

 

As things stand right now I would tentatively favor the expulsion of the Parshmen.  I wouldn't bother trying for genocide since it would probably be a waste of time and effort given the apparent time limit Jasnah thinks they are working with.  Good luck convinving all the other nations of Roshare in following your lead.   If the Parshendi turn out to be the void bringers they can decide after the issues of immediate survival what we can and should do about them in the long term. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Perhaps, but for it to be justified we should only take into account the information that Jasnah specifically has at her disposal.  We all can see and feel things that likely lead us to think or conclude that genocide is not the correct choice to make.  But, that is not as relevant to whether it is a justified choice as the information that Jasnah has is.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

It's a good topic Shardlet. In the broadest definition of this question, I'm going to say no, but I'm also going to refrain from responding to other comments in the interest of keeping this post healthy and unlocked, hahaha.

[Moogle]

Perhaps, but for it to be justified we should only take into account the information that Jasnah specifically has at her disposal.  We all can see and feel things that likely lead us to think or conclude that genocide is not the correct choice to make.  But, that is not as relevant to whether it is a justified choice as the information that Jasnah has is.

 

You do make a compelling argument. I don't quite trust Jasnah's information, but I do trust her to make informed decisions.

 

Though, didn't she completely avoid stopping a war that's responsible for thousands of deaths? I distinctly recall being disappointed at her for that.

 

I suppose it doesn't matter. Part of the issue with killing or expelling the parshmen is that their entire economy relies on them. Finding an alternate solution that protects them from Odium would be top priority research for her. Of course, I'm sure she's found no useful information on the subject, hence the mad dash for Urithiru.

 

Given Jasnah's information, and assuming she finds nothing else, I think her decision to expel/kill the parshmen is well-thought out and likely the correct course of action. Even from a meta-perspective I think the choice is slanted in favor of genocide. I'm curious as to how a Knight Radiant could be so utilitarian, but I guess that's the nice part about her not actually being one.

 

(Half-sarcasm warning!) I really do hope JasnahxTaravangian becomes a thing. With them together, Roshar could truly prosper.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 We know that there are some kind of altered spren, so I wonder what that means if a parshendi bonds with one? I think it would make them enter the voidbringer form.

 So it stands to reasonson escape.

 I wonder if te void bringer used their dead as vessels, explains their horror at their dead being messed with.

[Crysanja]

Guess Jasnah has more time on the ship to think about it, we know something is happening on the ship, this can change her view alot.

 

please keep in mind Jasnahs father the King was assesinated by the Parshendi.

She made it her life to understand what happend.(walking on walls) a power maybe given by the Parshendi(Desolation) in her mind?

 

 

the world of the stormlight archives needs her to understand and learn, to survive the desolation.

but with the Parshendi, she might not be the right person to ask anything.

 

i dont think she could convince Dalinar to kill/expulse them all.

he has too much else on his mind, only a vision could bring him todo so.

[stratix]

To me the Parshendi seem alot like the Kandra in Mistborn.  Although they may have been a creation of a being who is misusing his power, they still have there own decisions and desires for good.  I think they would be just as opposed to Odiums return as the humans simply for the fact that part of the process to create them could have given Odium power to control them.  I am guessing the new found form in words of radiance, while not inherently evil, gives Odium the ability to control them to his own will. 

[Wysawyg]

I'm wondering if the clue is hidden somewhere in the Parshendi songs in the chapter heading. Perhaps there's a form that grants immunity from the Everstorm so the question would be how to get as many Parshmen as possible into that form. I don't think they'd have to trap the spren in the crystals, that's the cheat method, the old method was just to walk into a Highstorm with the right mindset to attract the right  spren.

 

So potential forms:

Work form contains this line: "Seek first this form, its mysteries to bear.

Found here is freedom from fear."

 

Though we've seen Workform Parshendi forcibly StormFormed but maybe there's a difference between the Everstorm and the walking into a Highstorm with the right spren.

 

Or perhaps DullForm is the answer:

To find this form, one needs banish cost.

It finds you and brings you to blight

 

You could parse the lines as 'Cost will bring you to blight so banish it'. Would explain why all the Parshendi 'woke up' post desolation in DullForm.

[Numb]

A lot of the posts here seem to take the perspective that it's kill or be killed but one thing it doesn't take into account is the humans seem to be the invaders themselves. If the Parshendi were on Roshar before the humans then it was the humans themselves that helped create the Odiumus forms of the Parshendi. 

 

It's not about right or wrong for the humans at the end of the day. They are the ones in the wrong from the start. They brought a malignant force that is capable of taking control over the local population and now are engaged some how in an endless cycle of destruction with said force. If anything we should be speaking about the Parshendi initiated a genocide on the human population not the other way around. In any case a genocide of either population only serves to help Odium.

 

If we just look at it from Jasnah's perspective than there is not enough information for her to make such a decision. The most obvious reasoning being if the Parshendi are the voidbringers and cause of the desolations how do desolations stop. If they end when the voidbringers are defeated than how are there Parshendi still alive after the end of a desolation. If they end in some other way but killing the Parshendi would end them for good why did that never happen before. Jasnah might be ruthless but she won't make a decision based off unclear information. She has enough to reasonably say that the Parshendi can become something akin to Voidbringers which is all she has said.

 

edit: I can't help but feel extreme pity for the Parshendi. They chose to enter into a war they knew they had no hope of winning in order to give the world more time before the next desolation. They effectively sacrificed themselves for everything else and yet were still betrayed in the end. Even before it seems they entered Dullform to end the desolations which is akin to becoming mentally handicapped. The Parshendi are the true victims of this story and I can't help but feel that only reason we don't side with them is because we see the story from the side of the humans. Reminds me of the Native American population in a way although my history on them is pretty weak.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Numb

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

A lot of the posts here seem to take the perspective that it's kill or be killed but one thing it doesn't take into account is the humans seem to be the invaders themselves. If the Parshendi were on Roshar before the humans then it was the humans themselves that helped create the Odiumus forms of the Parshendi. 

 

It's not about right or wrong for the humans at the end of the day. They are the ones in the wrong from the start. They brought a malignant force that is capable of taking control over the local population and now are engaged some how in an endless cycle of destruction with said force. If anything we should be speaking about the Parshendi initiated a genocide on the human population not the other way around. In any case a genocide of either population only serves to help Odium.

There is some pretty flawed reasoning here. You can't ignore the decisions and actions of the Parshendii because they were on Roshar or the Shattered Plains first. Every decision should be evaluated in context and take prior decisions into account. The humans were willing to talk and negotiate - the Parshendii assassinated their leader. Toward the end of the conflict, the humans were willing to talk and negotiate, the Parshendii say there will not be any negotiation and proceed to wipe out the entire Shattered Plains. Both are opportunities for the Parshendii to make decisions that avoid conflict. You can't just skip over them because the Parshendii were around. Whether or not the humans responded the right way when there king was assassinated, that was the event that caused the hostilities. If there was one before, we are not aware of it. 

I think this story is supposed to remind you of the Native Americans, but the Native Americans never assassinated any European king, and they never (effectively) nuked the opposing force instead of negotiating. It is a similar story with huge differences at critical points.