Diferences between splinters and shards

[hellfun]

Adonalsium split into 16 shards which were taken up by 16 sapients. This indicates that Adonalsium was self aware. The definition of splinter is a self aware pice of a shard. But no shard has to our knowledge attained self awareness.

This indicates 2 possibilities

1 there was always someone who took up the shard. Not leaving it enough time to attain self awareness

2 shards can't attain selfawareness because they are both too powerful and/or to powerless.

If it is 1 can splinters be taken up before attainig self awareness (divine breath? )? Could it be that Adonalsium was taken up by a sapient. Has any shard attaind selfawareness?

 

 

[Eki]

It seems like without a holder, a shard splinters. This is probably because the power is just too great for it to be stable without someone controlling it. The resulting splinters would then be small enough to be stable, and would develop sentience over time. Whether adonalsium - the actual power itself - was sentient, or if there was a holder who took the power... that's an interesting question. If a shard is too big to be stable without a holder, then surely adonalsium itself would have been too... But what if adonalsium just started out sentient from the beginning?

You say that the fact that adonalsium split into 16 shards indicates that adonalsium was self aware, though. I agree that adonalsium was self aware, but I don't see the connection you're making. We don't know the details of the Shattering, but we know that someone or something opposed adonalsium, meaning it might not have Shattered itself. Personally I think adonalsium was in on it to some degree, but we don't know anything about that yet.

About divine breaths: We don't actually know if they are self aware or not. They don't seem to interact with the Returned, but it's possible that they actually are aware regardless.

The only way I see a shard attaining its own sentience, would be if someone managed to keep the shard intact for long enough, without actually picking it up. If the shard was unheld, but whole, for long enough, maybe it would develop enough sentience to be able to control itself. That would be interesting.

[Yata he/him]

1 minute ago, Eki said:

It seems like without a holder, a shard splinters. This is probably because the power is just too great for it to be stable without someone controlling it.

Actually this isn't really true...the only Splintered Shard we saw are being actively Splintered (most by Odium) as Mistborn trilogy shows....the Shards without holder are not really troublesome...they are there waiting to be pick up because the "power want to be used". We also see how Preservation wasn't automaticaly Splintered when Leras died also if it's what Ati wanted (and Ati is a big malicious force at this point aganist the Shard).

We have also some WoB who said that if a Shard is lefted without a holder he may began to develop sentience or keep doing what he was doing before (for example the Mist on Scadrial or the Returned creation on Nalthis).

Anyway I think the answer is simply "no Shard was left alone too long" and that a Shard auto-developed Mind is still a worse controller for the Shard's Power than any mortal. It may be that an Autonomus Shard began to search for a new host (to better use its own power)

[Eki]

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

Actually this isn't really true...the only Splintered Shard we saw are being actively Splintered (most by Odium) as Mistborn trilogy shows....the Shards without holder are not really troublesome...they are there waiting to be pick up because the "power want to be used". We also see how Preservation wasn't automaticaly Splintered when Leras died also if it's what Ati wanted (and Ati is a big malicious force at this point aganist the Shard).

I haven't read Secret History, but I thought it was fairly well established that if Kelsier hadn't taken up Preservation when Leras died, it would have splintered pretty soon thereafter. I guess in that particular case, it could have been Ruin who did the splintering...

14 minutes ago, Yata said:

We have also some WoB who said that if a Shard is lefted without a holder he may began to develop sentience or keep doing what he was doing before (for example the Mist on Scadrial or the Returned creation on Nalthis).

I always assumed those WoBs referred to if the shard was splintered, but now that I look at them, that's not exactly what they say.

I was sure I read somewhere that a shard left on its own would splinter, but now I can't find any reference to that... Sorry about the confusion!

[Yata he/him]

11 minutes ago, Eki said:

I was sure I read somewhere that a shard left on its own would splinter, but now I can't find any reference to that... Sorry about the confusion!

Nevermind, it's a quite unclear topic, we never sees a whole Shard without an holder (for more than some seconds or minutes) and therefore we can't have direct experience of this kind of event...the best we can do, is to try to speculate with the few element we have

My point was just about how a Shard may keep doing is work (if it keep doing for a while) also if the former mind is no more. This point to a Shard who don't explode in a tons of Splinter if lefted alone for too long and it's a basic level of mind to direct its own power if you think about.

I don't want to go further on the matter because I don't want to talk of something that may be spoiler to you....But there are elements who suggest that a Shard without a Holder (I decide that I will called it Orphan Shards) also with an hypotetical mind would prefer to have a real holder than keep without.

In the end this post of mind made me come to an Idea about Adonalsium and the event of the Shattering but it's too soon to expose it

Edited September 30, 2016 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, hellfun said:

If it is 1 can splinters be taken up before attainig self awareness (divine breath? )

It is supposed that the Divine Breaths are self-aware, hence why they are defined as splinters, and that it is in fact largely their cognitive and spiritual which are manifested in Returned.

[hellfun]

19 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It is supposed that the Divine Breaths are self-aware, hence why they are defined as splinters, and that it is in fact largely their cognitive and spiritual which are manifested in Returned.

Jet Divine Breaths are tho only pieces of a shard where it is unproven that they are self aware. personally I think that the bond between a Returned and Divine Breath is like a (imperfect hence the breath once a week)Nahel bond only the other way around. It would explain the memory loss and the possibility to rememmber fragments of thre former lives. And when the bond is Broken (giving ons life for another) both participants die (or arerelesed).

Kelsier did take up Preservation however he felt resitence at first as he tried to take it up and the connection was uncomplite way weeker than Vins later on so it wich leads me to think that it depends on the Shard and Shardholder if the shard kan be taken up.

[goody153]

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it depends on the Shard and Shardholder if the shard kan be taken up.

I remember some WoB about who can take up the shards but Mr. Sanderson just rafo'd the question. I think considering that the (Secret History Spoilers)

Spoiler

Elantrians who were planning to take up the shard of preservation after he dies needed that weird orb thing to do it. And judging from  Kelsier and Leras conversation where Kelsier asked Leras if he could take the the shard of preservation or when Kelsier has to say "i give you my power" (non-verbatim) to Vin before he let go of the powers of preservation would probably mean that the one of the requirement would be that the previous shardholder giving his green light that the person who will take up the shard can.

That theory gets questionable since Sazed managed to picks up the shard of Ruin without any trouble(like Vin picking up Preservation without literally any problems unlike

Spoiler

Kelsier who picked up Preservation where the power resisted him

).

I suspect anybody can't just pick up vessel-less shards without maybe connecting with the shard or something ?  I mean by the time Sazed picked up Ruin he already understood the good sides of Ruin like acceptance and peace over things if he had to pick up Ruin earlier when Tyndwyl was still alive or when he was still stuck in the state of depression he probably couldn't or if he could he would've been overwhelmed by the Shard intent(like what happened with Ati) or get resisted by a chunk of the power(like what happened with (SH Spoiler)

Spoiler

Kelsier when he picked up preservation

)

 

But that's just a theory

[Steelheart]

On 10/1/2016 at 2:52 PM, goody153 said:

I remember some WoB about who can take up the shards but Mr. Sanderson just rafo'd the question. I think considering that the (Secret History Spoilers)

  Hide contents

Elantrians who were planning to take up the shard of preservation after he dies needed that weird orb thing to do it. And judging from  Kelsier and Leras conversation where Kelsier asked Leras if he could take the the shard of preservation or when Kelsier has to say "i give you my power" (non-verbatim) to Vin before he let go of the powers of preservation would probably mean that the one of the requirement would be that the previous shardholder giving his green light that the person who will take up the shard can.

That theory gets questionable since Sazed managed to picks up the shard of Ruin without any trouble(like Vin picking up Preservation without literally any problems unlike

  Hide contents

Kelsier who picked up Preservation where the power resisted him

).

I suspect anybody can't just pick up vessel-less shards without maybe connecting with the shard or something ?  I mean by the time Sazed picked up Ruin he already understood the good sides of Ruin like acceptance and peace over things if he had to pick up Ruin earlier when Tyndwyl was still alive or when he was still stuck in the state of depression he probably couldn't or if he could he would've been overwhelmed by the Shard intent(like what happened with Ati) or get resisted by a chunk of the power(like what happened with (SH Spoiler)

  Hide contents

Kelsier when he picked up preservation

)

 

But that's just a theory

Hate to rain on your parade, but thers a WoB out there that specifies that "ANYONE can pick up a shard" ( Emphasis NOT mine)

[Yata he/him]

21 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

Hate to rain on your parade, but thers a WoB out there that specifies that "ANYONE can pick up a shard" ( Emphasis NOT mine)

Actually the "anyone" is a bit tricky. As pointed in-world fact, there are factors who allow you to pick up a Shard. But are nothing too extraordinary.

A person need to be Connected enough (to be honest I don't know how much it is this "enough") to a Shard's mandate to pick up the Shard....or maybe to use the Shard once picked up (this is a bit unclear).

I think the WoB wanted to say that you don't need to be a Chosen One, a Magic Powerhouse or something beyond the Humanity to be able to Ascend with a Shard. Anyone with the right attitude my become a God

[cometaryorbit]

That WoB could also mean that anyone can pick up a Shard - i.e. for each Cosmere individual, there's at least one Shard they could take up. Not anyone can pick up any Shard. Kelsier was closer to Ruin, so he needed help to take up Preservation.

[Yata he/him]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

That WoB could also mean that anyone can pick up a Shard - i.e. for each Cosmere individual, there's at least one Shard they could take up. Not anyone can pick up any Shard. Kelsier was closer to Ruin, so he needed help to take up Preservation.

The problem here is: Is "be Connected enough" a requirement to pick up a Shard or to use a Shard.? Because it's possible that I may pick Dominion (the knowed Shard with less compatibility with me) without trouble, but then be uncapable to performe anything with this power. Damned to release the Shard or slowly be twisted by its power until I am Connected enough to began to use it.

 

We know to little to speculate a real model for the Ascension. The only Ascensions we saw were with a perfect Vessel, or with an anomaly as Vessel.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Yata

[goody153]

Quote

We know to little to speculate a real model for the Ascension. The only Ascensions we saw were with a perfect Vessel, or with an anomaly as Vessel.

Actually (Secret HIstory)

Spoiler

Kelsier was not a perfect candidate. I mean both Leras(before he got convinced and probably thought it was better to gamble Kelsier as the new Vessel than no Vessel at all at the risk of Ruin splintering the Shard) and the powers of preservation itself denied Kelsier even though he managed to ascend (like only not every part of Preservation bowed to the new Vessel and there was some parts resisting him).

Completely different to Vin who she could fully control preservation no issues whatsoever. And also Sazed where both preservation and Ruin didn't threaten to destroy each other held by a single entity. 

Maybe that's what it looks like when somebody undeserving or unconnected enough gets the Shard until like you said Yata the shard turns you into like a puppet completely twisting your thoughts into a version of you (whether kind or cruel) like had a way of implementing your beliefs with the shards intent like somebody who has insane confirmation bias.(kinda like Ati feels like he's doing everybody a favor by ending them lol)

[Yata he/him]

It's what I meant with "Anomaly", He was not only "not Connected enough" (problem solved with alternative method) but also not fully living being. It's too a special case to use as example.

much more (here I can't avoid to say something spoiler)

Quote

The IRE were certain to obtain Preservation and return home with their own legs. This mean their Orb would be enough to fully reclame and use a Shard.

When Kelsier Ascended to Preservation, He manage to overcome the Connection issues (with the Orb), but the Shard resist him because He was a faulty Vessel (for his Cognitive Shadow Status) like Ruin said

 

[goody153]

Hmm if anything

Spoiler

Kelsier should be the most compable since he stayed in the well(literally a part of preservation). Enough that even before he ascended he's kinda like a sliver

i don't think it should matter if someone doesn't have a physical form. But we don't know that better ask Mr. Sanderson and get a RAFO for our efforts lol

[Yata he/him]

57 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Hmm if anything

  Hide contents

Kelsier should be the most compable since he stayed in the well(literally a part of preservation). Enough that even before he ascended he's kinda like a sliver

i don't think it should matter if someone doesn't have a physical form. But we don't know that better ask Mr. Sanderson and get a RAFO for our efforts lol

Actually someone with a quite perfect knowledge of Realmic Theory (a Shard) explicity states that someone without ties to all three realm would be a worse Vessel than a regular living human.
And about the time the guy spent in a certain location...Probably He improved his Connection to the Shard, but for his own statement. His Connection to Preservation was a little thing before his natural Connection to Ruin

Edited October 11, 2016 by Yata