Who is this 'Taln’?

[Tariniel he/him]

He doesn't have to be Alethi to speak Alethi, @Eki, especially since he is a Herald and would therefore have to deal with all cultures. He also had a wild look, with branches and tangles in his hair and beard, implying that he likely had to travel a long distance to reach Kholinar. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tariniel

[Argent he/him]

2 minutes ago, Eki said:

And I doubt a darkeyed person would willfully immigrate to Alethkar.

Do you mean that you doubt a darkeyes from another kingdom is unlikely to emigrate to Alethkar? Maybe because you think darkeyes are treated especially poorly there? Because if that's the case, I don't know if I can agree. Alethkar is widely agreed to be one of the most prosperous kingdoms, with a fair number of darkeyes spanning all ten dahns. some of them even marrying to lighteyes. So no, I don't think Alethkar would be undesired by foreign darkeyes.

Now, as far as Taln's description goes, I think the only odd thing about him is that he is really broad of shoulders and his skin is darker than the average Alethi. Things that could indicate that he is a foreigner, but they could also point to him being a well-tanned farmer. I like the latter theory a lot. 

[Tariniel he/him]

33 minutes ago, Argent said:

What this theory doesn't explain is Damnation. Taln very clearly remembers fire, and chains, and sizzling flesh. Now, it's very much possible that those experiences are - were - being fabricated for his mind somehow, but they suggest a physical body. I wonder of Odium keeps a stockpile of bodies, of people, on Braize, and would normally just hand the Honorblades to them, forcing the Heralds' minds to inhibit the bodies, and then torturing them until the body dies.

These are both really interesting things I hadn't thought of, @Argent, especially the second one. Until now I had just been thinking of it as when the Herald dies in Damnation is when the Honorblade loses its connection ("Experience ended," you might say.) That is why Taln and the other Heralds seem to remember the fires and other horrors, because it was before they died, and so the Honorblade keeps the memories. I'm liking your points a lot better, though.

[Eki]

1 minute ago, Tariniel said:

He doesn't have to be Alethi to speak Alethi, @Eki, especially since he is a Herald and would therefore have to deal with all cultures. He also had a wild look, with branches and tangles in his hair and beard, implying that he likely had to travel a long distance to reach Kholinar. 

The argument Argent made was that the reason he could speak modern Alethi was because the body could, so for that first point, him being a Herald doesn't really matter. Otherwise, I agree with you.

For the second point, from his description, it really seemed like he arrived from Damnation very recently. I doubt he could have traveled very far, between the state he was in, and the presence of highstorms. You could argue that he was as exhausted as he was because he had traveled that far, but considering he had just been tortured for thousands of years, I think that would have the bigger impact, even if it was only psychologically.

3 minutes ago, Argent said:

Now, as far as Taln's description goes, I think the only odd thing about him is that he is really broad of shoulders and his skin is darker than the average Alethi. Things that could indicate that he is a foreigner, but they could also point to him being a well-tanned farmer. I like the latter theory a lot. 

There is a WoB that says Taln (along with Ash and Sigzil) has the pigmentation of a black person on earth. I don't think anyone of Alethi decent is ever described as such. So probably not just a tanned Alethi.

[Tariniel he/him]

8 minutes ago, Eki said:

You could argue that he was as exhausted as he was because he had traveled that far, but considering he had just been tortured for thousands of years, I think that would have the bigger impact, even if it was only psychologically.

"His hair was long and matted, his clothing nothing more than a ragged, sacklike length of cloth wrapping around his waist. He stood with his head bowed, wet, ratty hair hanging down over his face and mixing with a beard that had bits of wood and leaves stuck in it. His muscles glistened, wet as if he'd just swum a great distance." 

This seems like more than psychological exhaustion to me...

[Argent he/him]

12 minutes ago, Eki said:

it really seemed like he arrived from Damnation very recently

This is a good point, His body being covered in moisture is very much what you would expect if he had recently materialized in a manner similar to how Shardblades materialize - covered in frost. I am very inclined to agree that he had materialized very close to Kholinar, and not long ago.

14 minutes ago, Eki said:

There is a WoB that says Taln (along with Ash and Sigzil) has the pigmentation of a black person on earth. I don't think anyone of Alethi decent is ever described as such. So probably not just a tanned Alethi.

Those are also fair points. He would be assumed to be Makabaki on Roshar. They are, I suspect, unusual in Alethkar, but not unheard of. I can't fully counter your argument, I kind of agree that it's unlikely - though not impossible - for a Makabaki to have been possessed so close to Kholinar...

Unless the bodies, the vessels, also experience a physical change when the Herald takes over. If the Blades hold the Heralds' cognitive aspects, then we have seen at least one other case where a Cognitive entity changes a physical body - the Returned. The Divine Breaths are Splinters, and there is a strong argument to be made for all Splinters having a strong Cognitive aspect. So the transformation the Returned display as they are being endowed with a Divine Breath could be viewed as very similar to the change we propose people go through when they receive the of a "dead" Herald.

[Tariniel he/him]

12 minutes ago, Argent said:

This is a good point, His body being covered in moisture is very much what you would expect if he had recently materialized in a manner similar to how Shardblades materialize - covered in frost. I am very inclined to agree that he had materialized very close to Kholinar, and not long ago.

Yes, but the bits of wood and leaves in his beard seem un-Damnationlike. They seem more as is he had actually traveled a sizable distance on Roshar itself.

[Argent he/him]

17 minutes ago, Tariniel said:

Yes, but the bits of wood and leaves in his beard seem un-Damnationlike. They seem more as is he had actually traveled a sizable distance on Roshar itself.

Unless he rolled down a hill or something. Or unless Braize is not a barren wasteland and Taln had just escape through some forest there. 

I can acknowledge that it seems likely that Taln has traveled a long distance. I just think that the moisture on his muscles is mighty suspicious (I don't think it's sweat), and that makes it more likely that if he has, in fact, traveled a long distance, it wasn't on Roshar.

[Ardjet]

14 minutes ago, Argent said:

Unless he rolled down a hill or something. Or unless Braize is not a barren wasteland and Taln had just escape through some forest there. 

I can acknowledge that it seems likely that Taln has traveled a long distance. I just think that the moisture on his muscles is mighty suspicious (I don't think it's sweat), and that makes it more likely that if he has, in fact, traveled a long distance, it wasn't on Roshar.

I was actually JUST about to post something to that effect, Argent. The way he's described, I always associated it with Shardblades and how they're wet with condensation after summoning. I believe the same type of thing happened to Taln. He was made to appear somewhere(perhaps in a fashion similar to Elsecalling?) and the transition left him covered in condensation, as does a Shardblade when summoned.

[Tariniel he/him]

38 minutes ago, Argent said:

I just think that the moisture on his muscles is mighty suspicious (I don't think it's sweat)

I do agree with this. Hadn't noticed it before, but it does really seem like how Shardblades look when they're summoned. I wonder why this is...

[Argent he/him]

45 minutes ago, Tariniel said:

I do agree with this. Hadn't noticed it before, but it does really seem like how Shardblades look when they're summoned. I wonder why this is...

I have two theories hypotheses:

1. Moving between Realms, or possibly only when moving to the Physical, acts similarly to an endothermic reaction, i.e. it sucks energy from the environment, generating frost.
2. Creating matter into the Physical Realm using magic generates frost, for whatever reason.

To pick one or the other we need to decide how is it that Shardblades get manifested, where are they summoned from. If they reside in the Cognitive Realm, which I think would make sense, then it's probably the act of dragging them into the Physical that creates the frost. I suppose they could be in the Spiritual, but that feels weird to me for some reason. Alternatively, it's possible that Shardbearers create them on the fly, but this idea seems far less elegant to me. I think they are being summoned from Shadesmar (which is a good place for spren to be), and something about the transition covers their Physical "bodies" with frost. 

So in this light, I think Talenel's Cognitive Aspect may have escaped Braize through Shadesmar, and his reemerging into the Physical Realm, into the body of Taln, caused Taln to be covered in frost. But at this point we are stretching things a bit...

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

2 minutes ago, Argent said:

I have two theories hypotheses:

1. Moving between Realms, or possibly only when moving to the Physical, acts similarly to an endothermic reaction, i.e. it sucks energy from the environment, generating frost.
2. Creating matter into the Physical Realm using magic generates frost, for whatever reason.

To pick one or the other we need to decide how is it that Shardblades get manifested, where are they summoned from. If they reside in the Cognitive Realm, which I think would make sense, then it's probably the act of dragging them into the Physical that creates the frost. I suppose they could be in the Spiritual, but that feels weird to me for some reason. Alternatively, it's possible that Shardbearers create them on the fly, but this idea seems far less elegant to me. I think they are being summoned from Shadesmar (which is a good place for spren to be), and something about the transition covers their Physical "bodies" with frost. 

So in this light, I think Talenel's Cognitive Aspect may have escaped Braize through Shadesmar, and his reemerging into the Physical Realm, into the body of Taln, caused Taln to be covered in frost. But at this point we are stretching things a bit...

The air around Kaladin also begins to freeze if he uses Stormlight too quickly. Not sure if it's related, but the mention of frost reminded me. I also don't think it fits either of your theories. 

[Argent he/him]

I vaguely recalled something about Stormlight and frost, but I couldn't remember the exact details. I'll think on it.

[soyperson]

This (absolutely completely out-there and brilliant) theory, if correct, could explain the multiple, drawn-out names that all the Heralds get.

[marianmi]

In any case, it's clear Heralds use the same bodies over time, and don't "possess" people from the current time.

My reasoning for Taln being wet/having bits of stuff in his hair was that he died in a river and he spawned as he was before death. I agree the wetness can be because of materialization from wherever he was held, but the algae and whatnot can be from the river he died in last desolation.

[Oversleep]

I just want to point out that Blades are not covered with frost when summoned. They are only wet. Mist seems to condensate and then a wet Blade appears.

The only cases we have seen frost forming are rapid expulsions of Stormlight - Szeth's Windrunning is a prime example (up to his whole clothing freezing - IIRC it was Gavilar's assasination), but I think Kaladin also generated frost once or twice.

[Xaklys he/him]

7 hours ago, Eki said:

I think his actual appearance is very much unlike the vast majority of Alethi though. And I doubt a darkeyed person would willfully immigrate to Alethkar. 

Amaram mentions something to this effect when he goes to visit him in the asylum, that he thought that all of the Heralds would all be Alethi.  This is obviously because he expects the Heralds to be like him like most religions do but it supports that if the mind/spirit of Taln is possessing this man, he was already not Alethi.

[soyperson]

1 hour ago, Xaklys said:

Amaram mentions something to this effect when he goes to visit him in the asylum, that he thought that all of the Heralds would all be Alethi.  This is obviously because he expects the Heralds to be like him like most religions do but it supports that if the mind/spirit of Taln is possessing this man, he was already not Alethi.

Indeed, most Christians think Jesus looked like a white man with long, flowing hair, when in reality he probably looked like a person of Arabian descent.

It's all a matter of cultural preference, I suppose.

But I digress. 

In any case, you could be absolutely correct. 

[Xaklys he/him]

I just think so much has pointed towards him actually being Taln with the Desolation returning and the whole Ancients of Stones thing and all the epigraphs in The Way of Kings like the one about "the burden of nine becomes mine."  It just all points to Taln, Talenel'Elin, Herald of War, Stonesinew, and bearer of all agonies is this person who is obviously out of his gourd that Amaram found.  Sorry for the dramatic rattling off of Taln's names, I like names a lot XD

P.S. I do agree that it is weird that Brandon refers to him as "someone who believes he is Taln," and I honestly don't have an answer for why he is saying that, but I'm going off what has been written/theories I like so far.  It may or may not have something to do with the theme of Perception that is very relevent on Roshar since the Cognitive Realm and it's impact does exist.  Feel free to disagree, this is just my stance on the idea,  

P.P.S. I think Stonewards are my most anticipated Order of Knights Radiant the more I think about them and how they could possibly tie into Szeth's past/culture.  Other Orders I'm excited about are the Willshapers, Elsecallers, and Truthwatchers (especially since seeing the future is "of the Voidbringers.")

Edited October 7, 2016 by Xaklys
Typo

[Tariniel he/him]

9 hours ago, Xaklys said:

 It may or may not have something to do with the theme of Perception that is very relevent on Roshar since the Cognitive Realm and it's impact does exist.

What do you mean? That because people believe Talenel to be like this is why he is like this?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Tariniel

[Xaklys he/him]

No, I mean he sees himself as Taln even though he's in this maddened state is what I meant.  That situation is tricky because Brandon keeps referring to him as someone who believes he is Taln.

 

[Rasarr she/her]

I thing your and my minds are riding a pretty similar train of thoughts on this matter, @Xaklys (though you've put it far better than I could ). For my explanation: apart from Taln himself, no-one (with exception of Amaram, but storm that guy) believes the man's Taln; therefore, "the man who calls himself Taln". And if I may nitpick, nowhere in text does Taln actually call himself Taln, only Talenel'Elin.

And referring to stuff that's been mentioned further up, we have to keep in mind that Braize is not Hell in the way we imagine it here on Earth, but an actual planet that serves as Hell for Odium's purposes. There might very well be both wastelands for Taln to burn in and forests for him to get branched caught in his beard. 

I must say, I am admittedly less against Heraldic Demonic Possession theory than I was a day ago, but I still think this really is Taln, in his own body (reconstructed multiple times... Theseus' Ship, 'Now With Less Wood' Edition). To throw another (very weak) wrench into this discussion, Taln's been described as towering over Amaram even when stooped, and far bigger when upright. Considering Alethi are already crazy tall (weren't they on the average the tallest of all Rosharan ethnicities?), and the fact that Amaram is a pretty tall guy himself, Taln is likely a giant not otherwise found on Roshar. Granted, possession could've changed the possessed body to fit those specs - but wouldn't the people escorting him to the Shattered Plains notice that he bulked up something fierce despite doing nothing but mumbling all day? And if the man who got possessed really was that huge already, wasn't Dalinar's man trying to investigate the newcomer's origins? If so, people would likely remember a giant black-skinned man passing by the other day, and thus Bordin would've found out. 

[Xaklys he/him]

1 hour ago, Rasarr said:

I thing your and my minds are riding a pretty similar train of thoughts on this matter, @Xaklys (though you've put it far better than I could ). For my explanation: apart from Taln himself, no-one (with exception of Amaram, but storm that guy) believes the man's Taln; therefore, "the man who calls himself Taln". And if I may nitpick, nowhere in text does Taln actually call himself Taln, only Talenel'Elin.

Thanks, friend!  I can't take full credit for it, I've pieced together several theories that I've seen that I happen to agree with based on the epigraphs that seem to refer to Taln (i.e. The Ancient of Stones and what not), there are actually quite a few referring to something holding back the Desolation.

On this topic of discussion about the "man who refers to himself as Taln," I think you are onto something with Amaram being the only one to believe that his is Taln, him and Wit rather.  That could very well be exactly why Brandon keeps calling him that.

[Tariniel he/him]

Quote

 

“Who are you?” Shallan whispered.

“Talenel’Elin. The one you call Stonesinew.”

She felt a chill. Then the madman continued, whispering the same things he had before, repeated exactly. She couldn’t even be certain if his comment had been a reply to her question, or just a part of his recitation. He did not answer further questions.

Shallan stepped back, folding her arms, satchel over her shoulder.

“Talenel,” Pattern said. “I know that name.”

“Talenelat’Elin is the name of one of the Heralds,” Shallan said. “This is almost the same.”

“Ah.” Pattern paused. “Lie?”

“Undoubtedly,” Shallan said. “It defies reason that Dalinar Kholin would have one of the Heralds of the Almighty locked away in a temple’s back rooms. Many madmen think themselves someone else.”

 

I know this is likely just him being more accustomed to an informal version of his name, while Shallan is used to the formal Vorin title, but maybe there is something here...

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Tariniel said:

I know this is likely just him being more accustomed to an informal version of his name, while Shallan is used to the formal Vorin title, but maybe there is something here...

I think Talenel is his real name. Talenelat is an altered version that the Vorin religion uses because they find symmetry holy. Same for Jezrien -> Jezerezeh, Nale/Nin -> Nalan, Ishar -> Ishi, etc.

The 'Elin seems to be a title, I think.