Who is this 'Taln’?

[Tariniel he/him]

What We Know:

1. Brandon, for some unknown reason, refuses to acknowledge this 'Taln' as the Herald Talenelat. He continually refers to him as "the man who calls himself Taln..."
2. This 'Taln' does, however, display certain physical characteristics that have been associated with descriptions of the Heralds before. Namely, he has "dark skin," and speaks "perfect Alethi," without any "hint of an accent." He also catches darts at hyper-speed...
3. He only speaks perfect Alethi in his first appearance by the gates of Kholinar. His accent changes to something like gibberish when Elhokar and Dalinar are 'interrogating' him.
4. Further proof that something strange is going on is his apparent inability to immediately know who he is, as demonstrated by his hesitation ("Who am I? I... I am Talenel'Elin, Stonesinew..."). (I'm pretty sure this happens somewhere else, but I can't remember where, at the moment.)

Theories: Here's a compilation of some of the theories I've seen regarding the dual identity of this character:

• He's the same Taln, but he's been broken over 4500 years of constant torture. Seems to imply that Brandon is just trolling us with his description, which seems highly unlikely to me considering the strange inconsistencies mentioned above.
• He's someone else (likely a Herald overcome with remorse) who went to the Nightwatcher and asked her to release Taln. The way she 'fulfilled' his wish was by placing Taln's mind in his body, thereby 'releasing' him. This seems plausible; the only issue I have with it is that it seems that just because we don't know the limitations of the Old Magic, we ascribe any unexplained occurrence to the Nightwatcher...
• Similar to the above, but removing the Nightwatcher aspect. Maybe he's just a Herald overcome by grief, who has developed a multiple personality syndrome as a way to cope.
• He could be an Aimian impersonating the Herald Talenelat, though that does not explain how he has the memories of being tortured on Braize or knows so much about the role of the Heralds.
• This is a little far-fetched, but, now that I think about it, he could just be a really good actor that is impersonating Taln...
• The current Comere-connecting theories are that he's either a kandra, Forgery, or Hemalurgy was involved. (BTW, if we're ruling in Scadrial Investiture, Allomancy could just as easily be an explanation for his lightning-fast reflexes...)

My Theory: There is a chance that this has been said before, considering how long the books have been out for, although I did search for it and couldn't find this specific theory anywhere... If it is somewhere, hopefully I'll add something new to the discussion or provoke some new thoughts. Here goes: 

• Could it be that the some form of the Heralds' minds are held in their Blades? Being that the Honorblades are a large part of what makes a Herald a Herald, that seems to make sense to me. Taking this a little further, it could be that the Heralds are tortured on Braize, not only until they break, but until they actually die. At least physically. Their minds live on in the Honorblades, which then return to Roshar and are bonded by the bodies which will eventually become the new Heralds. There is even a WoB (It's here, I believe) which says that they can remain on Roshar for a certain period of time before another Desolation begins. That could be a transitional phase when the bodies accustom themselves to holding the Herald's mind within them, allowing for them to be fully adjusted and ready to carry out their individual missions once the Desolation starts. This 'Taln' could simply be the body holding the Herald Talenelat, a suitable explanation for Brandon's cryptic way of referring to him. What do you guys think?                                                                                                                                                                

(Now that I'm thinking about it, there is the issue that Brandon doesn't refer to the other Heralds we know of (Nalan and Shalash, for example) in this same obscure manner. Is there a way you can think to explain this or is my theory drowned already...)

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tariniel

[Eki]

Your post gave me an interesting question: We know that Honorblades don't disappear when you drop them, right? (And in any case, normal blades drop when the bonder dies.) So why did Taln's blade not drop when he died? He had it when he returned. That does seem to suggest a special bond between the two. I don't think it's quite the connection you suggest, but there's probably something going on there.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

32 minutes ago, Tariniel said:

Could it be that the some form of the Heralds' minds are held in their Blades? Being that the Honorblades are a large part of what makes a Herald a Herald, that seems to make sense to me. Taking this a little further, it could be that the Heralds are tortured on Braize, not only until they break, but until they actually die. At least physically. Their minds live on in the Honorblades, which then return to Roshar and are bonded by the bodies which will eventually become the new Heralds. There is even a WoB (It's here, I believe) which says that they can remain on Roshar for a certain period of time before another Desolation begins. That could be a transitional phase when the bodies accustom themselves to holding the Herald's mind within them, allowing for them to be fully adjusted and ready to carry out their individual missions once the Desolation starts. This 'Taln' could simply be the body holding the Herald Talenelat, a suitable explanation for Brandon's cryptic way of referring to him. What do you guys think?                                                                                                                                                                

That could make alot of sense. Although the cognitive aspects don't check out. How exactly do you transfer someone's mind to a Honorblade?? Closest thing is Nightblood, and it has it's own developed persona.

[Oversleep]

There is a topic you can raid for things and there are more links in there:

Shame I never got to do what I said I would. Good luck to you.

[marianmi]

* This "Taln" had a different Blade when he appeared, which was switched. i see this as proof that indeed that was a Honorblade. Wit waiting for him to appear also means that that he could not find that Honorblade anywhere else => this points to the guy (physically) being Taln.

* When fighting in desolations, the surviving Heralds would go pick up the blades of the dead ones => when a Herald dies, his blade stays on Roshar. The question is - what happens to the body? Next Desolation, does he get a new body, or the same body? I tend to incline that it's a clone of the same body, because of the DNA required to use the blade.

* Between desolations, Heralds go to that "terrible place". This means their minds go there. So mind/body/blade are 3 distinct entities. Does this mean that the blades are <spiritual> aspects of Honor?

So my point is that he's got the physical body and the Honorblade of Taln, but we don't know about the mind.

Edited October 6, 2016 by marianmi

[Xaklys he/him]

I think he is Taln (Talenel'Elin) but he has obviously been broken by four millennia of torture from Odium.  I agree with the theory that this "Ancient of Stones" that is holding back the Desolation this whole time that Taravangian referred to in the Diagram is Taln.  Whilst on Braize (if that is actually where they go when they die), the Heralds have to bear all of Rayse's hatred to prevent him from going to town on Roshar, which is what the Desolations are basically.  The Ancient beginning to crack means that he can't hold back Odium anymore, which is why the Desolation has come again.  That explains the other Heralds abandoning the Oathpact and leaving Taln to suffer, and his suffering has driving him to madness.   

[Oversleep]

56 minutes ago, marianmi said:

When fighting in desolations, the surviving Heralds would go pick up the blades of the dead ones => when a Herald dies, his blade stays on Roshar.

Um... no? Reread the Prelude.

[Yata he/him]

I am pretty sure that when an Herald dies his/Her Honorblade vanish with him/her. They have to willing leave them behind. The sole view of the Circle of Honorblades in the Prologue was enough to Kalak to understand that almost all survived (and the missing Taln's Honorblade as "ah Taln is dead right ?")

This mean that in the times between the previous Desolations...there are no Honorblades on Roshar

Edited October 6, 2016 by Yata

[marianmi]

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Um... no? Reread the Prelude.

Yeah sorry

But Taln's blade that was switched it's proof that he had a honorblade.

[Tariniel he/him]

8 hours ago, Xaklys said:

I think he is Taln (Talenel'Elin) but he has obviously been broken by four millennia of torture from Odium.

Yes, that is a prevalent theory. However, that doesn't explain why Brandon absolutely refuses to call him Taln...

 

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

But Taln's blade that was switched it's proof that he had a honorblade.

I'll probably make a separate post on this, but if he had a Honorblade, why were his eyes still dark?

[Tariniel he/him]

9 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

That could make alot of sense. Although the cognitive aspects don't check out. How exactly do you transfer someone's mind to a Honorblade??

I've been thinking about this, @Darkness Ascendant, seems to me that it could have been that the Blades are, and have always been, the Heralds. Meaning that the Blades have somehow always held the cognitive aspects of the Heralds, and are just passed on from one user to the other. The minds were never 'transferred,' they were made that way and have developed those personas, which then transfer into their bearers. This could also be the comparison that Brandon often draws between Nightblood and Blades.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tariniel

[DeTess she/her]

31 minutes ago, Tariniel said:

I'll probably make a separate post on this, but if he had a Honorblade, why were his eyes still dark?

It is mentioned somewhere that a radiants eyes revert to their original color after he/she hasn't  used stormlight or their blade for a while. That's probably the case here as well.

[Tariniel he/him]

Just now, randuir said:

It is mentioned somewhere that a radiants eyes revert to their original color after he/she hasn't  used stormlight or their blade for a while. That's probably the case here as well.

He had the Blade out during this encounter...

[DeTess she/her]

The only time his honor blade was mentioned was in the end of WoK, and he basically just dropped it at his feet, suggesting it might not have been properly bonded.

[Tariniel he/him]

So what are you saying, that he had a simple unbounded Shardblade? Why would someone switch out the Blades, then? 

[marianmi]

It was probably Wit, who knows who/what this Taln is, and he's safekeeping the Honorblade.

[Tariniel he/him]

We have a WoB that it wasn't Wit

[marianmi]

2 minutes ago, Tariniel said:

We have a WoB that it wasn't Wit

link?

[Tariniel he/him]

Quote

QUESTION

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

Heres where this came from.

This is what really throws a wrench into the whole thing, seeing as he was the most likely suspect. I am making a separate thread about this, though. I'd rather if this one centered around the discussion of Taln as a person.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tariniel

[DeTess she/her]

1 hour ago, Tariniel said:

So what are you saying, that he had a simple unbounded Shardblade? Why would someone switch out the Blades, then? 

What I meant to say was that, for whatever reason, Taln had released the bond on his honor-blade. This meant that it no longer had any effect on eye-color.

As for the theory that the blade carries the mindof the herald, why wasn't Szeth affected by that?

[Tariniel he/him]

The reason Szeth wasn't affected could be because of the way he acquired the Blade. The Heralds aren't dead. Therefore, in some way, the minds of the Blades are still within their original hosts. The blades can only give their surges now, but not make someone a Herald until the current ones die. This is an unprecedented case, as the Oathpact has never been 'broken' before, and so even the magic is probably still figuring itself out. In Taln's case, however, he did die, which is what allowed his mind to be transferred to the new bearer. An interesting thing to think about is how the Blade chooses the new Herald. Do they choose people that already have similar ideals and facial features, or does it slowly transform the holder into the Herald and his attributes, similar to how Shards work?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tariniel

[Rasarr she/her]

@Tariniel, I'm not sure if you'll take it as a compliment, but I find your theory really creepy. Reminds me of demonic possession. 

I admit I personally believe that "the man who calls himself Taln" is indeed Talanel'Elin, the Herald of War, the same guy who's been fighting all other desolations. We've seen his insanity from his point of view; he'd have to be one hell of a method actor to make himself see walls on fire and all that stuff. The reason why he's been reduced to gibberish could be because he's been repeating the same "script" over and over again so many times, he just can't keep up with it any more, kinda like you say something too many times and it just stops sounding like a word anymore to you. The "who am I?" question could very well be a sign of problems with his memory; it's not so implausible after four thousand years of torture. I'd be willing to guess that Brandon's refusal to clearly identify the man as Taln is part trolling, and part statement that he's not really Taln, because he lost too much of his identity, so to put it, throughout his time on Braize.

Regarding the Blade, my personal guess is that much like Shardblades, the Honorblades break their bonds with their carrier when the latter dies. Therefore, Herald or not, Taln still has to re-bond his Honorblade after coming back from the dead.

[Tariniel he/him]

@Rasarr It does kind of sound like demonic possession, doesn't it? Hadn't thought of that 

There is only one problem I have with your theory, which is why I abandoned it when I began thinking through this topic a little more. I'm not sure if even I completely follow my own theory, but it does have a distinct advantage in the 'surprising, yet inevitable' department. Brandon lives for his endings, and after reading so many of his books, I can't bring myself to believe that he would purposely create so much hype around something that will ultimately just be the expected result. On the contrary, I've seen on more than one occasion, where he is very careful to use the right words, or clarify any misunderstanding he thinks might lead to unrequisited attention being put onto a certain topic.

[Argent he/him]

So, we are thinking that the Honorblades might somehow host the Heralds (either their Cognitive or Spiritual aspect, or perhaps both), might somehow be the Heralds? And they simply use different bodies, different hosts, different vessels if you will, throughout the ages?

I think there is a certain elegance to the theory (though it doesn't explain everything). It could explain:

• Why Taln, the man who shows up at the gates of Kholinar, speaks perfect Alethi. If he had been recently "possessed" by Talenel, he might still have enough of his own mind and knowledge to retain his control over modern Alethi. As time passes and Talenel's mind takes over, we start seeing Taln mutter in whatever ancient predecessor of Alethi Talenel knew.
• Why the Heralds who broke the Oathpact are growing... different. I would've said "insane" or "unstable," but we don't know enough about their condition. Presumably the Heralds, the original Heralds, were fully in control of their vessels at the time of Aharietiam, so by the time they abandoned their Blades, their personalities and knowledge were more or less fully in line with what we would expect from a Herald (which is why they don't appear to act strange then). Having spent millennia separated from their Blades, from their minds (or souls), could've had strange effects on them. 
• The point above could also possibly explain why our prime candidate for Jezrien (the "have you seen me" drunk at Gavilar's party) seems extra unstable - his Blade, his mind, is being used by another.
• It could also possibly explain why Nale seems a little more stable, at least to me - he (likely) has his Blade. He doesn't feel insane, just... misguided. Not confused, not distracted, nothing that could suggest an impairment of the mind - he thinks clearly, just not how we would expect the Herald of Justice to think.

What this theory doesn't explain is Damnation. Taln very clearly remembers fire, and chains, and sizzling flesh. Now, it's very much possible that those experiences are - were - being fabricated for his mind somehow, but they suggest a physical body. I wonder of Odium keeps a stockpile of bodies, of people, on Braize, and would normally just hand the Honorblades to them, forcing the Heralds' minds to inhibit the bodies, and then torturing them until the body dies.

Or, alternatively, maybe Odium has the Heralds' original bodies, and uses them for torture. If all the Heralds returned to Damnation after a Desolation, Odium would have to give each one of them time to recover before he inflicted the next wave of torment, but with nine of them absent, he could've kept moving Talenel's mind from one to the next, effectively increasing the amount of torture he could inflict tenfold. This could certainly explain why Talenel feels betrayed by the others (as opposed to happy that they are avoiding torture), and why they feel bad for abandoning him and dropping their own burden on his shoulders.

Yes, I think I like this theory. I've strayed into the land of largely baseless speculation, but all of this has a good - if convoluted - feel to it.

[Eki]

10 minutes ago, Argent said:

Why Taln, the man who shows up at the gates of Kholinar, speaks perfect Alethi. If he had been recently "possessed" by Talenel, he might still have enough of his own mind and knowledge to retain his control over modern Alethi. As time passes and Talenel's mind takes over, we start seeing Taln mutter in whatever ancient predecessor of Alethi Talenel knew.

I think his actual appearance is very much unlike the vast majority of Alethi though. And I doubt a darkeyed person would willfully immigrate to Alethkar. It's possible, of course, but unlikely. I think it would be more likely someone from the west would learn Alethi, in that case. But Taln showed up in Alethkar... Wouldn't that mean the body he supposedly possessed was in Alethkar too?

I dunno. I feel like his appearance combined with how he speaks was deliberate from Brandon's side, to show that this person isn't from any of the current cultures of Roshar.

I think there is a special bond between the Honorblades and their respective Heralds, but I also think they keep their own bodies. Or at least, the same look - they have to be repaired after dying or being tortured, of course.