Mistborn and Perks [WoB]

[Yata he/him]

Pushed from this @Oversleep 's question. I began to try to find an explaination that in the end made me ask direcly to Mister Sanderson. This is the answer I get about the matter

Quote

Yata: There is something that recently was debade by some fans and I hope you may give some clue about the "side effect of interaction between magic" as was pointed in the Twinborn and Surgebinder Cases: Are those "perks" stackable ? To say if I am a Fullborn like Rashek, wil I have all the possible Twinborn's perks or a specific "Fullborn's perk" ? And about the same topic, a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist has his own perk/perks ?

Brandon: I've worked under the premise that if you hold too many of the powers, like a Mistborn, the result is a loss of these little quirks. The mechanics of it are interesting, but I'll leave you to theorize on that sort of thing.

Yata:Interesting, I was completely wrong. I thought they gains some "extended Allomancy/Feruchemy" for example the ability to "burn everything also not compatible metals", or the ability to "redistribute Feruchemical Charge in Metalminds" (something never explicity states as possible). Well it's always good to discover something new...thanks for your time. I hope I may see you at Lucca Comics & Games next month

I hope he would reply to the last one, but in the end we discovered something quite juicy.

A perks is something developed by small sections though Interactions. Greater Powerhouse in the Cosmere leave no space for this natural interactions.

We may use this fact to remove all the strange feats of Mistborn, Feruchemist or Fullborn by the effect of a weird Perk

Edited October 6, 2016 by Yata

[Vindicator]

I would not read too much into this. It probably means that because you have less powers to practice on, you get better at what you have - and therefore the interactions he mentions are more likely to be something you figure out since you use nothing else but those. 

It likely is possible for a full Mistborn or Feruchemist or Fullborn to be capable of say, something like Wax's steel bubble (which is from being a steel savant) if you put in the practice. Kelsier was good at steel and iron, Vin seems to be pretty good at Soothing and using pewter, along with steel. Spook would be pretty good at tin, and I doubt being a full Mistborn would have changed that (although the supersensitivity and physical damage has been reverted). 

Also note that all those Mistborn have had little time to truly learn their Allomancy - Kelsier has 2-3 years before his death, Vin 4-5 years. Only Spook gets a lifetime - and his abilities post-Catacendre haven't been expanded upon. Now contrast this to Wax, who has 28 years after his year in the Terris village to use Allomantic steel and Feruchemical iron. Given this, it's no surprise that he can do the steel bubble trick. 

[Yata he/him]

Actually @Vindicator the "perks" are actually effect unexpetted born from Magic Interaction and not directly correlate with the "parents powers".

Take as example the Surgebinder's one (we know at least some of this): For example the Lightweaver's Memory or Skybreaker's guilty-sense. They are not born form practice with the Surges...They simply arise spontanous from the only fact you have the "parent powers" as interaction (in theory a Lightweaver who never used his Surges would may already have the Memory).

A Savantism effect may be reach by everyone with the right power after a long use, the "perks"(without a better name yet) are simply there without any kind of use, effort or skill

Edited October 6, 2016 by Yata

[Vindicator]

But in this case, the only time Brandon has spoken about Mistborn lacking those quirks was in the original trilogy, where Vin realizes all the Mistings in the crew are better at their metal than she and Kelsier are, because they've used it for so long without anything else, and thus have more experience. Marsh says that Mistborn often neglect bronze and copper as well, while training her. Therefore, the 'perks' you mention include those.

And the Surges are not Allomancy or Feruchemy. They're still a relatively-unknown magic system, and I think likening it to the latter two is an exercise in futility until we understand more about the powers. I don't think anyone even knows precisely what most of the Surges can do, let alone the 'God Surges'. We have yet to see Wax, for example, exhibit anything like the Lightweavers and Skybreakers were claimed to be able to do, or Wayne, or Miles. 

For all we know, the Lightweavers' memory retention may be down to their artistic tendencies, not their powers. The Skybreakers could be similar - deal out the law long enough and it's no surprise you can tell if someone is guilty. 

[Yata he/him]

There are differnt aspects of the Allomantic Power:

- Allomantic Strenght: How strong are you as allomancer, it is express as "how much fast you may burn your metals" (and for example it is the difference between Elend and Vin as Allomancer)

-Skill: know how to actually use your power to get a better outcome (Breeze with years of practice know who to push-pull Emotions to get what he want from a subject, it's probably he is also a Savant but the great of his feats come from skill and experience alone)

- Savantism: The power actually become "better" and you may performe feats with it that not Savant can't do it. (Spook's daredevil sense, kelsier's high controll over the Pushed-Pulled Object, Wax's Steelbubbles are all result of powers who are further developed twisting the User's soul....A genius Allomancer like Vin would be unable to do it until her soul began to change as happened to the others).

- Perks (extremely uncanon term): Something born from magic interaction between powers. A misting or ferring can't have it because their power is alone. This magicl effect may be or not be related to the powers who gave birth to this (example: Shallan's Memory, Skybreaker's guilty-sense, Windrunner's abnorme Squires number, we have no yet a confirmed Twinborn's perk).

[Turbonator]

@Vindicator, have you read the Ars Arcanum of SoS/BoM? Near the end, it says Twinborn get the two powers, and an effect. They also get to specialize, of course, but @Yata is right. Being Twinborn is more than the sum of its parts, I suppose.

Take Feruchemy, for example. The entire magic system is the result of two gods' Investitures mingling. This happens on a far smaller scale for every Twinborn combination. They get a mini-power, or something like that.

[Spoolofwhool]

@Yata Good catch on the WoB. I've been wondering that for awhile, before even Oversleep posted.

3 hours ago, Vindicator said:

But in this case, the only time Brandon has spoken about Mistborn lacking those quirks was in the original trilogy, where Vin realizes all the Mistings in the crew are better at their metal than she and Kelsier are, because they've used it for so long without anything else, and thus have more experience. Marsh says that Mistborn often neglect bronze and copper as well, while training her. Therefore, the 'perks' you mention include those.

And the Surges are not Allomancy or Feruchemy. They're still a relatively-unknown magic system, and I think likening it to the latter two is an exercise in futility until we understand more about the powers. I don't think anyone even knows precisely what most of the Surges can do, let alone the 'God Surges'. We have yet to see Wax, for example, exhibit anything like the Lightweavers and Skybreakers were claimed to be able to do, or Wayne, or Miles. 

For all we know, the Lightweavers' memory retention may be down to their artistic tendencies, not their powers. The Skybreakers could be similar - deal out the law long enough and it's no surprise you can tell if someone is guilty. 

It has been stated in the Ars Arcanums for SoS and BoM that, according to the writing, possessing more than one "power", or ability to use a manifestation of investiture, results in the formation of an unique effect for each intersection of powers. These are the "perks" that Yata was asking about, as he defined more accurately in his question.

You can compare surgebinding to allomancy and feruchemy in this regard because they are all manifestations of investiture. Just because we haven't seen any obvious sign of perks from the Twinborns isn't saying much. Also, don't forget we're getting the PoV from these characters, so whether they are doing something which is beyond what is normal for their powers wouldn't be obvious. For all we know, Wayne's ability to mimic personalities might be a perk of his power. Probably not, but still possible. For the most part, we know of the KRs perks because they were explicitly mentioned. If we had been shown it happening a lot, we might've not clued into the specific perks as easily. 

The Lightweavers' and Skybreakers' described perks could be naturally-gained quality. However,with the Windrunners, you cannot really say they creating an excessive amount of squires is natural. Also, we have a WoB that does state that those abilities have supernatural ties in their origin.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Argel he/him]

Wax's insanely good aim and how good Wayne is at blending in -- both of those seem like good candidates for perks.

Wayne's in particular reminds me of Shallan's perfect memory -- he just needs to hear someone speak a sentence or two and he's good to go without even hearing every possible phonetic sound or regiona/sub-regional dialects/phrasing (e.g. "Y'all" and "Youings" from the American South).

Edited October 6, 2016 by Argel

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, Argel said:

Wax's insanely good aim and how good Wayne is at blending in -- both of those seem like good candidates for perks.

Wayne's in particular reminds me of Shallan's perfect memory -- he just needs to hear someone speak a sentence or two and he's good to go without even hearing every possible phonetic sound or regiona/sub-regional dialects/phrasing (e.g. "Y'all" and "Youings" from the American South).

True, I didn't think of it as a perk, but I've always found the scene at the end of AoL to be a bit extreme, where he intentionally deflects a bullet off of another bullet. The insane accuracy, as you put it, being a perk would make sense.

[Yata he/him]

I have to be honest...I have always put the Wax's aim as a side effect of being a Coinshooter or Lurcher....You see all the time line toward a lot of thinks and you may use it as "guide" for aiming and other spacial reference....But it's possible he is indeed supernatural. No other Steel/Iron Misting seems to be so deadly precise.

About Wayne: someone asked (it was an old WoB) if his ability to impersonate has something magical. And the answer was "no"...But in the end a "perfect hear" would be something different

[Shardbearer he/him]

Very interesting find, @Yata!

 

Now, why would having less powers result in the loss of the perks? Also, does he mean a complete loss or a partial loss?

 

And @Vindicator, these perks have nothing to do with how good you are at using your powers or combining powers in interesting and useful ways. Wax's steel bubble is not his "perk". I seem to recall a WoB saying that Wax's perk has not manifested yet.

[Vindicator]

1 hour ago, Shardbearer said:

And @Vindicator, these perks have nothing to do with how good you are at using your powers or combining powers in interesting and useful ways. Wax's steel bubble is not his "perk". I seem to recall a WoB saying that Wax's perk has not manifested yet.

Is there a WoB for that? Because the context of what Yata posted includes savantism, given that Brandon specifically mentions Mistborn.

5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

@Yata Good catch on the WoB. I've been wondering that for awhile, before even Oversleep posted.

It has been stated in the Ars Arcanums for SoS and BoM that, according to the writing, possessing more than one "power", or ability to use a manifestation of investiture, results in the formation of an unique effect for each intersection of powers. These are the "perks" that Yata was asking about, as he defined more accurately in his question.

You can compare surgebinding to allomancy and feruchemy in this regard because they are all manifestations of investiture. Just because we haven't seen any obvious sign of perks from the Twinborns isn't saying much. Also, don't forget we're getting the PoV from these characters, so whether they are doing something which is beyond what is normal for their powers wouldn't be obvious. For all we know, Wayne's ability to mimic personalities might be a perk of his power. Probably not, but still possible. For the most part, we know of the KRs perks because they were explicitly mentioned. If we had been shown it happening a lot, we might've not clued into the specific perks as easily. 

The Lightweavers' and Skybreakers' described perks could be naturally-gained quality. However,with the Windrunners, you cannot really say they creating an excessive amount of squires is natural. Also, we have a WoB that does state that those abilities have supernatural ties in their origin.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely an unique effect - I read that same passage in the Ars Arcanum you did. What I'm skeptical about is that they manifest as Radiant-esque traits - I firmly believe it has more to do with unexpected usages of both Allomancy and Feruchemy in tandem. In a small way, you can already see this in say, Wax's steelpushing with his weight increased or decreased.

I also do not think we have enough information to compare Surgebinding to the Metallic Arts just yet. We barely know how the Surges can be used separately; to jump off on a tangent and compare it to a Shardic system with vastly different intentions is somewhat premature. Given Brandon's writing, I think it's unlikely that we would not have noticed any interesting, unnatural perks beyond mere skill in both Wax and Wayne (Miles has only one book, so I'll put him aside). Wayne's ability in disguising himself seems more like a skill he's learned over the years because of his capacity to empathize with others. This is unlike Shallan's mnemonic ability for example, which I think always had that supernatural implication to it. The Skybreakers, we have yet to see from anyone, and it will require more information.

No, the Windrunners' ability to gather a large number of Squires is probably not natural, especially given the WoB (in light of this I will most definitely concede what I said earlier of the Radiant Orders). But I am already convinced of that - Jezrien was after all, the Herald of leadership. I am not convinced though, that the Twinborn we've seen would suddenly gain a Radiant-esque talent that cannot be explained by mere mixing of the powers until we have further evidence.

 

 

[Yata he/him]

47 minutes ago, Vindicator said:

Is there a WoB for that? Because the context of what Yata posted includes savantism, given that Brandon specifically mentions Mistborn.

If I confused you with my List's post. I am sorry, I was just trying to explicity explain the differnt factors who may influence an Allomancer. To show you exacly what the WoB talked about.

52 minutes ago, Vindicator said:

What I'm skeptical about is that they manifest as Radiant-esque traits - I firmly believe it has more to do with unexpected usages of both Allomancy and Feruchemy in tandem. In a small way, you can already see this in say, Wax's steelpushing with his weight increased or decreased.

As you may see the WoB states that those "Perks" (again it's a not canon term, you may call it "supernatural effects born by Magic Interactions" if you prefer) aren't avaliable for being with too much powers (as example a Mistborn, Full Feruchemist and Fullborn).

You may note at this point that Push/Pull with more efficiency with Increase/Decrease Weight, it's something every Fullborn, Crasher, Iron Compounder, Mistborn+Iron Ferring, Coinshooter+F-Feruchemist and Lurcher+F-Feruchemist may do...this mean for logic, that it's not a "Perk" as for the WoB itself a FullBorn will not have perks

[Turbonator]

@Vindicator, I myself think that the perk is activated when both powers are used at once, making Twinborn perks different from most KR perks. After all,

Spoiler

Khriss

asks Wax what happens when he uses both powers at once, right? And there's the possibility of Miles "alloying" himself with his gold shadows by tapping health while burning gold (this is said in a thread somewhere).

[JUQ he/him]

9 hours ago, Argel said:

Wax's insanely good aim and how good Wayne is at blending in -- both of those seem like good candidates for perks.

Wayne's in particular reminds me of Shallan's perfect memory -- he just needs to hear someone speak a sentence or two and he's good to go without even hearing every possible phonetic sound or regiona/sub-regional dialects/phrasing (e.g. "Y'all" and "Youings" from the American South).

Have you read Mythwalker? It was a novel Brandon half wrote in 2001, and it included a guy who just has to see someone else try something, then he could become a master of it. I wonder if he copied Wayne's ability from there.

[Vindicator]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

If I confused you with my List's post. I am sorry, I was just trying to explicity explain the differnt factors who may influence an Allomancer. To show you exacly what the WoB talked about.

As you may see the WoB states that those "Perks" (again it's a not canon term, you may call it "supernatural effects born by Magic Interactions" if you prefer) aren't avaliable for being with too much powers (as example a Mistborn, Full Feruchemist and Fullborn).

You may note at this point that Push/Pull with more efficiency with Increase/Decrease Weight, it's something every Fullborn, Crasher, Iron Compounder, Mistborn+Iron Ferring, Coinshooter+F-Feruchemist and Lurcher+F-Feruchemist may do...this mean for logic, that it's not a "Perk" as for the WoB itself a FullBorn will not have perks

You didn't confuse me, don't worry. What I think we differ on here is that you think that Brandon meant 'perks' and what I mentioned, like savantism, are different. This is inaccurate though, since your WoB doesn't make the distinction. I think Brandon may have grouped the two categories together in the context of that WoB - look at this annotation for Alloy of Law, for example.

4 hours ago, Turbonator said:

@Vindicator, I myself think that the perk is activated when both powers are used at once, making Twinborn perks different from most KR perks. After all,

  Reveal hidden contents

Khriss

asks Wax what happens when he uses both powers at once, right? And there's the possibility of Miles "alloying" himself with his gold shadows by tapping health while burning gold (this is said in a thread somewhere).

Yes, this is something I lean towards as well. The Radiants are... more 'bound', so to speak; to be Invested they need to channel through the Nahel bond, and their oaths seem to improve their Stormlight efficiency. Allomancers, Feruchemists and Twinborn do not need to worry about this. So for Twinborn to have their pseudo-third ability manifest the same way? It doesn't add up. 

On a different note, I am interested in what a Twinborn Aluminum Misting/Nicrosil Ferring could do; create raw, pure Investiture perhaps? That is, if it doesn't just remove the Investiture to begin with.

[Spoolofwhool]

16 minutes ago, Vindicator said:

You didn't confuse me, don't worry. What I think we differ on here is that you think that Brandon meant 'perks' and what I mentioned, like savantism, are different. This is inaccurate though, since your WoB doesn't make the distinction. I think Brandon may have grouped the two categories together in the context of that WoB - look at this annotation for Alloy of Law, for example.

Could you elaborate on how that annotation exemplifies that the enhanced abilities of a savant and the perk of someone with two powers as meaning the same thing? I assume you're talking about the section at the end which talks about Wax being a steel savant. Also, it seems fairly obvious why no distinction was made. There was no need for one since the concept of savantism hadn't even come up in the question. Could you also explain why you think the two are the same?

 

Just a thought, for anyone who doesn't have a copy of SoS or BoM to view the passage we're discussing:

Quote

It is possible on Scadrial to be born with ability to access both Allomancy and Feruchemy. This has been of specific interest to me lately, as the mixing of different types of Investiture has curious effects. One needs look only at what has happened on Roshar to find this manifested—two powers, combined, often have an almost chemical reaction. Instead of getting out exactly what you put in, you get something new. On Scadrial, someone with one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power is called “Twinborn.” The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study.

 

[Vindicator]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Could you elaborate on how that annotation exemplifies that the enhanced abilities of a savant and the perk of someone with two powers as meaning the same thing? I assume you're talking about the section at the end which talks about Wax being a steel savant. Also, it seems fairly obvious why no distinction was made. There was no need for one since the concept of savantism hadn't even come up in the question. Could you also explain why you think the two are the same?

It was this quote specifically, not Wax's being a steel savant:

Quote

For these books, I wanted to show people who had one or two powers, instead of sixteen, and show how specialization can achieve some incredible results. 

Savantism was not brought up, correct. Brandon has mentioned, however that having more powers means you're less of an expert on any one power in particular. And savantism is an example of said expertise - you use it for so long that you get incredibly familiar with it. Given that, and this annotation, it seems likely that he was thinking of unique effects like Wax's steel bubble, which in turn was a direct result of being a steel savant. 

Basically, I don't think that savantism and something like the Radiants' supernatural talents are necessarily in the same category. However, because of the context of the question based on previous statements Brandon has given, I believe that he was including it in this WoB. 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Vindicator said:

It was this quote specifically, not Wax's being a steel savant:

Savantism was not brought up, correct. Brandon has mentioned, however that having more powers means you're less of an expert on any one power in particular. And savantism is an example of said expertise - you use it for so long that you get incredibly familiar with it. Given that, and this annotation, it seems likely that he was thinking of unique effects like Wax's steel bubble, which in turn was a direct result of being a steel savant. 

Basically, I don't think that savantism and something like the Radiants' supernatural talents are necessarily in the same category. However, because of the context of the question based on previous statements Brandon has given, I believe that he was including it in this WoB. 

The problem I see with that thought though is that Yata specifically defined the question as being about the "perks" of the interaction of two powers, and since Brandon is more than likely aware that the two is different, it seems unlikely that he would confuse the two. Also, the fact that he uses the term "mechanics" to explain why those with many powers don't have the lesser perks seems like an indication that he isn't referring to the fact that a misting would just specialize better at their one power versus a mistborn being a proficient at all of them, but more so that there are some underlying rules of how powers work together along with the makeup of innate investiture which would prevent the tangential perks from appearing. I'm using the term tangential to describe the fact that the perks aren't an amplification of a part of one of the powers, but rather something that is only possibly present with both powers. 

[Vindicator]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

The problem I see with that thought though is that Yata specifically defined the question as being about the "perks" of the interaction of two powers, and since Brandon is more than likely aware that the two is different, it seems unlikely that he would confuse the two. Also, the fact that he uses the term "mechanics" to explain why those with many powers don't have the lesser perks seems like an indication that he isn't referring to the fact that a misting would just specialize better at their one power versus a mistborn being a proficient at all of them, but more so that there are some underlying rules of how powers work together along with the makeup of innate investiture which would prevent the tangential perks from appearing. I'm using the term tangential to describe the fact that the perks aren't an amplification of a part of one of the powers, but rather something that is only possibly present with both powers. 

I don't necessarily think he was confusing the two, although that is a possibility (it has happened). It's also a possible deflection or misunderstanding of the question. Unless he clarifies this though, the evidence seems to point more to him talking about expertise and practice with one's powers. 

[Yata he/him]

7 hours ago, Vindicator said:

I don't necessarily think he was confusing the two, although that is a possibility (it has happened). It's also a possible deflection or misunderstanding of the question. Unless he clarifies this though, the evidence seems to point more to him talking about expertise and practice with one's powers. 

No Vindicator, I don't know if I am misunderstood your point or you are misunderstood the mine....But the WoB has not "gray zone".

I asked for a specific thing and he answered to that specific thing. You point in a misunderstood from Brandon's part but it's quite explicit:

He said that the mechanics don't allow to a Powerful being to have this  "side effect of interaction between magic" (I quote myself because the term "perk" created great problem).

- This mean that Savantism is not included in his answer because we have at least 2 cases of Savant Mistborn (Kelsier, Rashek and maybe Vin...Oh I forgot all the Inquisitors, my bad).

- This mean that "clever use of combination of power" (or "synergies" if you like the term better) is not included because Rashek may do it (Steelpush with increased weight)

I actually don't see how it's possible to say he confused the answer. It's probably one of the more direct and explicity WoB I saw

Edited October 7, 2016 by Yata

[Shardbearer he/him]

I've been trolling theoryland for a direct WoB on this, and the best I've found is a direct confirmation that Shallan's memory and the strength of Kaladin's squires are their perks:

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1125#40

Quote

ZenBossanova

I said since Shallan has a unique ability of Memory from her blended surges, is fighting what Kaladin has?

Brandon Sanderson

No. His unique ability is “Strength of Squires”.

The quote you posted from the Annotations makes me think that here, Brandon is indeed talking about using the two powers in unique and useful ways. But the Ars Arcanum is talking about something different, how mixing powers creates a unique effect, and directly compares  how this works  for Twinborn to the mixing of 2 Surges.

The quote posted by @yata in the OP is clearly referring to the same thing.

[Argent he/him]

Thank you for this, @Yata

[dyring]

I dont recall where it was from, but there was a short interlude somewhere with a young Waxilium (who wasent very good at aiming), wasent there?

He had already snapped at that point, so shouldent the aim be there already if that is the effect?

 

And Brandon saying "having worked under the premise" isnt really the same as "He said that the mechanics don't allow to a Powerful being to have this"

It may be my english messing with me(since its not my first language), but premise means something akin to "working assumption" doesent it? It sounds like something he havent really made up his mind about 100%

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by dyring

[Darkness he/him]

That's what I was going to reference too @dyring. Aim shouldn't be Wax's side effect, since he's originally a terrible shot in AoL. Could someone ask Brandon if a person who stole Wax's powers through hemalurgy would also gain the same side effect? I'm wondering if the effects could be manufactured. Also, I wonder if 2 powers that aren't naturally paired would gain a side effect if hemalurgy put them in the same person... both for same-same (illumination and gravity) and same-different (illumination and lurcher) magic combinations.