Mistborn and Perks [WoB]

[Spoolofwhool]

30 minutes ago, Darkness said:

That's what I was going to reference too @dyring. Aim shouldn't be Wax's side effect, since he's originally a terrible shot in AoL. Could someone ask Brandon if a person who stole Wax's powers through hemalurgy would also gain the same side effect? I'm wondering if the effects could be manufactured. Also, I wonder if 2 powers that aren't naturally paired would gain a side effect if hemalurgy put them in the same person... both for same-same (illumination and gravity) and same-different (illumination and lurcher) magic combinations.

The implications seem to be that any two powers in a person result in a side effect, even if the powers can't easily naturally coincide. So someone who can bind the surge of illumination while being a misting would have an effect unique to that pair, same thing with a misting who gained the powers of awakening.

Good point on the aiming, forgot about that interlude. I imagine that hemalurgically granted powers would have associated perks, provided you don't surpass whatever limits there are and the perks get crowded out. 

4 hours ago, dyring said:

And Brandon saying "having worked under the premise" isnt really the same as "He said that the mechanics don't allow to a Powerful being to have this"

It may be my english messing with me(since its not my first language), but premise means something akin to "working assumption" doesent it? It sounds like something he havent really made up his mind about 100%

You are correct. Premise in this context would mean working assumption. However, since he is willing to share this, chances are that he's at least somewhat certain that this is the route he wants to go, with some sort of mechanics governing these limitations. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[18th Shard he/him]

@Vindicator There is no " interaction between magic" involved in savantism - it is a single-power misting (and possibly ferring - I don't know if we have a confirm or deny in that regard) utilizing their power at an extreme level. The WOB Yata has given in the OP clearly discusses an interaction between magics, which doesn't occur for any non-Raskek/Hemalurgically-modified people (i.e. the crew, who manifest savantism in the form of Spook, Kelsier, and possibly others).

I think this is great to know; personally, I wonder if the "effect" can be spiked separately from the powers.

[Argent he/him]

On 10/7/2016 at 9:03 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

The implications seem to be that any two powers in a person result in a side effect, even if the powers can't easily naturally coincide. So someone who can bind the surge of illumination while being a misting would have an effect unique to that pair, same thing with a misting who gained the powers of awakening.

I've been thinking about this - whether two people who share the same powers would get the same perk. And I think not - or not exactly. I seem to recall a WoB about how all Lightweavers have mnemonic powers, but don't necessarily share Shallan's ability to capture perfect images in her mind. I know I am misremembering things (and maybe I'll search for the WoB in question), but to me this suggests that people who share powers get similar powers, but somehow interpreted by their own personality. So another Lightweaver might remember sounds perfectly, for example, while yet another might be able to, oh I don't know, put themselves in a perfect 3D recreation of a scene, VR-style.

[Yata he/him]

46 minutes ago, Argent said:

I've been thinking about this - whether two people who share the same powers would get the same perk. And I think not - or not exactly. I seem to recall a WoB about how all Lightweavers have mnemonic powers, but don't necessarily share Shallan's ability to capture perfect images in her mind. I know I am misremembering things (and maybe I'll search for the WoB in question), but to me this suggests that people who share powers get similar powers, but somehow interpreted by their own personality. So another Lightweaver might remember sounds perfectly, for example, while yet another might be able to, oh I don't know, put themselves in a perfect 3D recreation of a scene, VR-style.

Probably is more "same combinations get the same "perks" but this perks is slighty influenced by the power's host"....After all those Perks (again someone finds a better name, please shate it with the comunity) are born as unespected grown of a SpiritWeb. Someone's spiritweb is the base (or soil to keep the plant metaphor) of a Perk

[Spoolofwhool]

I was thinking about what the mechanics there could be that prevents people with many powers from gaining effects while people with a low amount can.

My best theory so far is that it has to do with the cracks in the spirit Web related to the powers. As far as I'm aware, all powers require some sort of crack in the spiritweb in order to function. My thought is that the effects are the result of a minor crack developing between two cracks. Because of slight deviances in a person's spiritweb, no effect will be the same, but for pairs of powers, the effects will be generally the same. However, for people with a large number of powers like Rashek, 32 in total, there are so many cracks from the different powers that there is no room for a crack for an effect to develop, so he gets none.

Anyhow, my initial thoughts.  I'll be interested to see what others think.

[Turbonator]

@Spoolofwhool, I can't think of any reason why you would be wrong, and I think your theory has merit. This could even work with the idea I believe, that both powers must be used at once (at least for Twinborn) in order to activate the effect. If the minor crack actually connects the two major ones, then when Investiture flows through the two major cracks, some will also flow through the minor one.

[Djarskublar he/him]

I guess I will chime in with a couple ideas for what we could call the bonus powers. Submanifestations comes to mind. That sounds like the best option, though it is lengthy. Interactive manifestations might work, but is too vague imo. Perks honestly isn't a bad term.

And spool, you have a fair chance of being right with that one. Another potential and similar explanation is that the cracks themselves interact in some manner, and once you get enough of them so that you are 'covered' in cracks, there aren't any interactions anymore because there is no space between the cracks to interact in.

[cometaryorbit]

I agree that "no room in the spiritweb" is likely why Mistborn and such don't get perks. I'm not sure it's a matter of soul-cracks though.  I think the powers themselves are found on the Spiritweb - that's what Hemalurgy steals.

I don't think a Mistborn has 16 separate soul-cracks for the 16 powers: they only have to Snap once. And it's really more than 16 powers... what about all the god-metal alloys? Also, Vasher can apparently use his Nalthian-Breath soul-crack to inhale Stormlight (though not Surgebind). I think it's one-soul-crack-per-person needed regardless of the number of powers.

I don't think that's quite all of it, though... I feel like the reason why you get one Allomantic power or all of them, but never two or five (barring Hemalurgy), is somehow related.

[Argent he/him]

I don't like the whole "minor cracks between the major cracks" idea. It requires the concept of space, or location, to be applicable to the Spiritweb (can't have "between" if there is no space), and it being a Spiritual construct is independent of such things. 

[Spoolofwhool]

40 minutes ago, Argent said:

I don't like the whole "minor cracks between the major cracks" idea. It requires the concept of space, or location, to be applicable to the Spiritweb (can't have "between" if there is no space), and it being a Spiritual construct is independent of such things. 

Obviously I don't mean literal cracks or anything. I'm just using a physical analogy to describe a completely metaphysical concept. An analogy which has been used before such as in the case of describing how savantism forms. To be more abstract and correct would be to describe my theory as:

"Changes in the spiritweb pertaining to specific powers induce other changes, which while variants exist between different people with the same powers due to other variants in their spiritwebs, pairs of powers produce similar changes. Too many changes as a result of the ability to use too many manifestations of investiture does not induce other changes due to interference between all the changes."

When I read it like that, I think prefer physical analogies. Besides, we know that it is probably possible to describe something spiritual aspect in more layman's turn, as that is likely how forgery works. I don't think soulstamps are written in metaphysicals abstractions since Gaotama was able to understand them without too much work, and he clearly didn't understand much about forgery before that. 

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I agree that "no room in the spiritweb" is likely why Mistborn and such don't get perks. I'm not sure it's a matter of soul-cracks though.  I think the powers themselves are found on the Spiritweb - that's what Hemalurgy steals.

I don't think a Mistborn has 16 separate soul-cracks for the 16 powers: they only have to Snap once. And it's really more than 16 powers... what about all the god-metal alloys? Also, Vasher can apparently use his Nalthian-Breath soul-crack to inhale Stormlight (though not Surgebind). I think it's one-soul-crack-per-person needed regardless of the number of powers.

I don't think that's quite all of it, though... I feel like the reason why you get one Allomantic power or all of them, but never two or five (barring Hemalurgy), is somehow related.

As I said above, I used the term cracks because that is how it has been described before. Cracks in the spiritweb leave room for the nuances of power to form, and savantism is the widening of the cracks through flow of investiture. None of this stuff is happening, it's just metaphysical and I'm just keeping the already-used analogy. I do think though that a mistborn of full feruchemist does have more than one change in their spiritweb, for each power. While one snapping does cause all of the mistborn's changes, the fact that hemalurgy can only steal one at a time implies that the powers are in some way separated. Also, I feel like the god-alloys are related to the base metal/alloy power, running off the same change. 

Interesting thought, I didn't consider that they could be related. I'd have to think on that a bit.

[Argent he/him]

I still disagree. The presence of magic in an individual can still be described as "cracks in the Spiritweb" without the need for location. The Spiritweb, as we understand it at the moment, is the collection of all the Connections a person has made in their life, as they exist in the Spiritual Realm. Cracks, then, become just damage to the web. This makes sense to me. But cracks between the other cracks... No, I am not the customer for this theory. I can leave the thread and let you guys talk about it, and not reiterate the same points every time, but I doubt I can be convinced on this one.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

I still disagree. The presence of magic in an individual can still be described as "cracks in the Spiritweb" without the need for location. The Spiritweb, as we understand it at the moment, is the collection of all the Connections a person has made in their life, as they exist in the Spiritual Realm. Cracks, then, become just damage to the web. This makes sense to me. But cracks between the other cracks... No, I am not the customer for this theory. I can leave the thread and let you guys talk about it, and not reiterate the same points every time, but I doubt I can be convinced on this one.

I understand what you're saying, and you're right, specifically saying that the cracks of the effect are being placed relative to other cracks is nonsensical. What I was more going for was the fact that they would induce cracking, or some sort of change in some other part of the spiritweb, with too many cracks preventing extraneous changes. That's why I didn't reiterate the "cracks between cracks" idea in my second post on the matter.  I'm curious though, are you just disliking my theory because I said cracks between cracks, or are just disliking the general idea of the cracks of powers causing other changes which result in the effects and the subsequent theory as to why too many powers won't cause effects? If so, I'm interested in an alternative theory on the matter, if you have one.

[Darkness he/him]

Just throwing this in there...With the models being proposed, shouldn't it follow that the people with the fewest interactions takings place should have the most 'secondary effects'? How do we explain single-power persons (ferrings for example) not exhibiting obvious perks?

 

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, Darkness said:

Just throwing this in there...With the models being proposed, shouldn't it follow that the people with the fewest interactions takings place should have the most 'secondary effects'? How do we explain single-power persons (ferrings for example) not exhibiting obvious perks?

Perks require at least two powers to occur as they are defined as an effect that occurs when two powers intersect. Regular ferrings or mistings cannot have effects in addition to their powers. 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Darkness he/him]

10 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Perks require at least two powers to occur as they are defined as an effect that occurs when two powers intersect. Regular ferrings or mistings cannot have effects in addition to their powers. 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I can see that.

My point was, the models proposed in this thread don't seem to accommodate the fact that ferrings and mistings don't have added effects.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Darkness said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I can see that.

My point was, the models proposed in this thread don't seem to accommodate the fact that ferrings and mistings don't have added effects.

Fair. The model is saying that it requires the presence of two cracks of a manifestation of investiture in order to induce the effect. One crack isn't enough. 

[Darkness he/him]

So is that to say that one crack (in the right place) = access to one system of magic?

For whatever reason, I had the mind-canon that access is granted based on a large variety of cracks all over the spiritweb... probably because of the vast amount of hemalurgic bind points people have.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Darkness said:

So is that to say that one crack (in the right place) = access to one system of magic?

For whatever reason, I had the mind-canon that access is granted based on a large variety of cracks all over the spiritweb... probably because of the vast amount of hemalurgic bind points people have.

Yes, that is the current model we are going by regarding how spiritweb changes when one gets a increasing amount of abilities to use manifestations of investiture.

[Darkness he/him]

Interesting. I maintain a different view, but definitely under those parameters I have no issues with the side effects. Would be interesting to see how the 'crowding out' of effects happens mechanistically in a person with access to too many magic systems.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

Interesting. I maintain a different view, but definitely under those parameters I have no issues with the side effects. Would be interesting to see how the 'crowding out' of effects happens mechanistically in a person with access to too many magic systems.

What is your view on the matter?

[Yata he/him]

As usual when the interesting discussions start...I'm sleeping (thank you Time Zone ). Anyway I don't think there is real a correlation between the "cracks" and "perks".

After all, one of the two only cases known (surgebinding and Twinborns) of "perks" come from a Magic System who don't cause Crack and don't need a Snapping (Feruchemy).

Maybe the interference problem is more in the fact that more "influences" (powers) you have, less your perk have a chance to be well defined.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Yata

[cometaryorbit]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Cracks in the spiritweb leave room for the nuances of power to form, and savantism is the widening of the cracks through flow of investiture. None of this stuff is happening, it's just metaphysical and I'm just keeping the already-used analogy. I do think though that a mistborn of full feruchemist does have more than one change in their spiritweb, for each power. While one snapping does cause all of the mistborn's changes, the fact that hemalurgy can only steal one at a time implies that the powers are in some way separated. Also, I feel like the god-alloys are related to the base metal/alloy power, running off the same change. 

Interesting thought, I didn't consider that they could be related. I'd have to think on that a bit.

I think there are two different things going on in an Allomancer's spiritweb.

Crack in the soul, letting in investiture. This forms at Snapping. (Feruchemists might not have this, since they don't Snap.)

The actual power, which is what is stolen by Hemalurgy. Feruchemists definitely have this.

I believe you can Hemalurgically steal Allomancy from a pre-Snapped person, Vin's sister probably was. So the power is there in the spiritweb before the crack forms - it just can't be used until the Investiture can get in.

So I think a Mistborn has one crack and sixteen-plus powers in their spiritweb. That's why hemalurgy steals one power at a time. The act of spiking damages the soul, so you don't need to steal the crack.

[Yata he/him]

25 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I believe you can Hemalurgically steal Allomancy from a pre-Snapped person, Vin's sister probably was. So the power is there in the spiritweb before the crack forms - it just can't be used until the Investiture can get in.

I think it's impossible (I think we have a WoB but really it's not needed).

Vin snapped at birth because her mother made a real troublesome childbirth....It's not hard to imagine that also Vin's sister snapped there.

Much more Ruin can't know what your power is...until you use it. It's the reason He can't find Durallumin Misting to use as source of Spike for his Inquisitors.

This mean that probably Vin& Sister born and then one of them (or both) burned some trace of metal, at this point Ruin put together is plan.

[Darkness he/him]

7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

What is your view on the matter?

This is going to be lengthy, so I'm putting it in spoilers. I intend for it to be on the thread topic, but apologies in advance if I digress from "Mistborn and Perks". I also changed my opinion based on a few WoBs, but I still see it differently from the proposed theory

WoBs: Bolded parts emphasized by me.

Spoiler

1. Chaos2651 - Jul. 2009

"Is there a rationale to how Hemalurgic powers are distributed? I tried to look for a system, but they seem rather randomly distributed. For example, the spike which steals Allomantic powers for a particular quadrant is not always in one particular spot."

Brandon Sanderson

"That is correct, it's not always in one particular spot. None of them are. I used as my model on this magic system the concept of acupuncture and pressure points. Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup.

"What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

"Hemalurgy is a very brutal way of making changes like this, though, so it often has monstrous effects. (Like with the koloss.) And in most cases, it leaves a kind of 'hole' in the spirit's natural defenses, which is how Ruin was able to touch the souls of Hemalurgists directly."

2. Kchan - Sept. 2012

"How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?"

Brandon Sanderson

"He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain."

3. IRONCAF - Mar. 2014

"In what ways is the process of becoming an allomantic savant like body building or other exercise?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Paraphrasing] That is not an inapt metaphor for it. It's like a wedge gets in the soul and cracks it, and investiture can fill it up.

IRONCAF

"And using allomancy breaks it further?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Yes."

4. Blightsong - April 2016

"So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the ability to become invested?"

Brandon Sanderson

"Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either (He cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought) so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing [is] the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them (like soulcasting or forgery) is harder."

Blightsong

"Would they be harder (kek) with more Stormlight or Metals burning?"

Brandon Sanderson

"Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing shard plate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea. The problem is like, invested is the wrong term for that, their spirit web is connected in different ways."

Blightsong: (I deem this "Spirit Web Magical Connectivity Diversity, or SWMCD").

5. insertcleverphrase () - Aug. 2011

"I know from reading your blog and various other comments that many of your books are in the same cosmos/universe, specifically Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, and Way of Kings. I also am pretty sure that one day you'd like to do a series that ties all the different series/books together into one super-series. So my question is, would the various magic systems work on different worlds? For example, would a Mistborn be able to use his/her abilities in the world Way of Kings is located on?"

Brandon Sanderson

"It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.)

"The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them."

6. zas678 - Nov. 2011

"Why do Seons become broken when their person is taken by the Shaod?"

Brandon Sanderson

"A Seon has a Spiritual Connection with their user. When the Shaod takes the user, it messes up the spiritual nature of the user, and it really messes up the nature of the Seon."

7. Chaos - May 2010

"Since the dawn of Scadrial, why was Feruchemy isolated in a single distinct population in the world, namely the Terrismen? Allomancy, while rare within the population of Scadrial, at least was not isolated to one population, it was spread evenly, it seems. What is special about the Terrismen that only they get the power of Feruchemy? Does it have something to do with the previous Ascensions before Rashek, with the guardian keeping the power for a time?"

Brandon Sanderson

It's all in the spiritual DNA, which is passed on like normal DNA. However, they are a separate people. They've kept themselves isolated, similar to the jews in our world. When I asked he said there have been some Feruchemical-mistings in the past, but they are very rare.

8.Kaimipono - Oct. 2008

"Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?"

Brandon Sanderson

"The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

"Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

"So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive."

9. PrncRny - Nov. 2014

"How and when is the type of Misting you become determined? Can you tell what type of Misting you are before you Snap?"

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)

"It's determined at birth. The cosmere by combining 3 aspects of self. Your physical self, mental self, and spiritual self. The spiritual self is tied to the Investiture of the world that you come from. When an Allomancer snaps, a piece of their soul is broken and some of that power leaks into them, giving them their abilities."

 

10. PrncRny - Nov. 2015

"Is an Snapped Allomancer more likely to pass on the Allomantic ability than an UnSnapped one?"

Brandon Sanderson

"Not necessarily. (I asked if it was pure genetics, then, and he initially said yes, then appended that with 'not just genetics. there's a spiritual aspect to it as well.')"

 

11. Question - Oct. 2013

"The change in how the magic (on Scadrial) interact with each other, was that done by Sazed?"

Brandon Sanderson

"Yes it was. You will find a theme. The snapping in Mistborn is actually a repeated theme through a lot of the different magics. Um, but what I felt at the end of the day Sazed would do something about it. So, even though that is part of the magic system, he changed that. The change to Feruchemy is more a matter of other factors such as the large amount of interbreeding that happened following...and things like that. And so a lot of people with Feruchemy sDNA mixing with people with people with Allomantic sDNA has affected the way the magics blend, so to speak. That's not done by Sazed. That's just kind of an effect."

Putting it together:

Spoiler

From the above, and just an overall feeling that comes from the word 'web', I developed a feeling that the web - meaning the connections you have in the spiritual realm - determines the potential (both type and strength) you have to use magic. Of course, one of the major connections you would have is to the place you were born, but that's an aside. Snapping, or otherwise cracking (or wounding, as Brandon said) your spirit web is what allows investiture to perfuse throughout your web, unlocking the effect the investiture has upon interacting with your web (like a cut allows access to the bloodstream). Actively using investiture also widens the crack. To me that indicates that the location of the cut doesn't really matter, but the magic is dependant on the shape of the bloodstream.

However, hemalurgy uses very specific bind points to steal specific powers, so the course of at least some discrete parts of the web is responsible for discrete powers. My idea is that there are areas of the spirit web (made up of a pattern of connections) that are common to all magic wielders of a given type. That part is heritable, and isolatable from the rest of the web. Investiture, in filling up the entire spirit web once a crack is made - regardless of where the crack is made - investiture will flow through all magic-appropriate sections of the web. In the case of Allomancy for example, when a proto-allomancer or mistborn cracks, the part of the spirit web that coincides with the unique signature of burnable metals is unlocked. When the metal is burned, investiture flows from the shard, through the metal into the person, and the spirit web interprets that into an effect.

Summing it up, my view is that the crack location doesn't matter so much as the shape of the parts of the web relevant to magic expression.

A few problems / underdeveloped areas /exploratory options of my theory:

1. I don't know why people are either Mistings, or full Mistborn. Or say a Ferring, versus a full Feruchemist. I don't get why there can't be some kind of in-between of access to more than one, but not all metals. I think I do have enough to say that Feruchemy and Allomancy are found in different, heritable parts of the spirit web, and pure probability is why twinborns are so rare.
2. People's spirit webs are a combination of inherited from their parents and altered by their life connections (like epigenetics). This explains why magic users seem to run in families, since the inherent potential would run more commonly through related persons, though a random person could theoretically develop the appropriate connections as well. Finally, the Intent behind the investiture seems to have some ability to choose who gets to use magic as well (for example, spren can choose the person they bond to), though this may simply be a natural outgrowth of how compatible the person is with the Shard's Intent (i.e. connection with the shard is necessary for magic use).
3. Spren can choose their surgebinding companions. However, apparently surgebinders don't always need to have a Nahel bond; this makes me think the Nahel bond is simply a way for the spren to splice their own spirit web to that of the human host, granting humans access to the surges where their own web normally wouldn't allow it. One domain of the spren's web gives access to 2 surges, while the other domain binds with the host's spirit web, like activating an enzyme with a coenzyme (sorry, I'm a bio major). Surgebinding potential may naturally occur as a function of genetics, but I think it would be even more rare than having enough connection to form a Nahel bond. Actually, this kind of makes spren sound like hemalurgic spikes in a way (Brandon has even referred to hemalurgy as 'splicing spiritual DNA')... which kind of supports my theory for the Recreance, but wow did I get off topic!
4. I have no way of conceptualizing what a crack in the spirit web would look like. WoB #5 seems to imply that each magic has a different connection (domain of the spirit web?). Maybe a connection you have hemorrhages when placed under specific duress? In Mistborn it was originally extreme ecstasy or a near-death experience. In SA it seems more nebulous, maybe dependent on the spren-type. In Elantris I like the idea that one of the key elements of connection is based on feelings of regional (because cognitive realm, not spiritual) attachment (devotion/dominion).
5. My theory would suggest that secondary effects (perks) somehow result from the blending of 2 active magical domains (or those connections that overlap and include both active areas). Also - just as enzymes can change form once they bind to a ligand, altering the shape of other areas of the enzyme - perhaps using too many forms of magic occupies/changes the overlapping connections so that the secondary effect pathway also changes, becoming inert.
6. I'd also say - mostly based on the WoB about hemalurgy (#1), that hemalurgically stealing the overlapping abilities of either a surgebinder or a twinborn would grant you the exact same perk as the original person, since their spirit web would have effectively overwritten your own.

 

TL;DR - READ ALL THE WORDS!!!

 

Edit: To advance my spirit web being enzyme-like thought; it could be that access to one Allomantic metal uses up / inhibits connections that the other metals would need to use in order to become burnable. This could be the natural configuration of humans on Scadrial. Conversely, I can think of a scenario for having Mistborn powers:

The Lord Ruler's introduction of Lerasium messed up the natural way of occasional mistings by overwriting people's spirit webs with the ability to burn all metals. This trait was passed down and whenever it manifested the active, 'mistborn' portion of the web remained relatively intact, meaning that only since TLR has it been all-one-or-none. Also, this would mean that no one outside of the direct lerasium bloodline would have the potential to become a mistborn naturally. Being a mistborn would be a dominant (or recessive) sDNA trait, such that it competes with 'misting' status should the 2 occur in the same person, and one loses out. The proper mistborn web simply hadn't been introduced into the gene pool, or spontaneously occured in any meaningful way until TLR.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Darkness
Further thoughts about my problem #1

[Darkness he/him]

And this is really getting juicy to me:

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think there are two different things going on in an Allomancer's spiritweb.

Crack in the soul, letting in investiture. This forms at Snapping. (Feruchemists might not have this, since they don't Snap.)

The actual power, which is what is stolen by Hemalurgy. Feruchemists definitely have this.

I believe you can Hemalurgically steal Allomancy from a pre-Snapped person, Vin's sister probably was. So the power is there in the spiritweb before the crack forms - it just can't be used until the Investiture can get in.

So I think a Mistborn has one crack and sixteen-plus powers in their spiritweb. That's why hemalurgy steals one power at a time. The act of spiking damages the soul, so you don't need to steal the crack.

 

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I think it's impossible (I think we have a WoB but really it's not needed).

Vin snapped at birth because her mother made a real troublesome childbirth....It's not hard to imagine that also Vin's sister snapped there.

Much more Ruin can't know what your power is...until you use it. It's the reason He can't find Durallumin Misting to use as source of Spike for his Inquisitors.

This mean that probably Vin& Sister born and then one of them (or both) burned some trace of metal, at this point Ruin put together is plan.

From what I've read, @cometaryorbit is absolutely correct about the crack letting in investiture. Also, Feruchemist abilities use internal power, and not external power (#5 on the page). I don't know whether that means snapping is unnecessary... I think it should be since you don't need a spiritual 'cut' to let anything in from outside, and you would theoretically already have access (connection) to all parts of your own spirit web.

As for "The actual power"... I'm not sure what you mean here. Hemalurgy steals the portion of the spirit web of the donor corresponding to the bind point the spike goes through, and staples it onto the spirit web of the recipient. It doesn't steal whatever the metal is catalyzing access to.

I agree that you should be able to steal Allomancy from pre-snapped people, and quite likely spiking would cause enough of a spiritual cut to qualify as snapping. I don't know about Vin's sister... but I don't see that she would have needed to be snapped, though it probably would have helped in Ruin identifying her ability (of course, he could have picked any bind point to staple into Vin, still would give him access). @Yata I also remember that quote about Duralumin gnats being hard to find because their abilities never manifested, but do you remember where that's from? Could you please link it or quote it? Ruin not being able to see people's spirit webs would make spiking unsnapped people highly impractical.

I also agree that a Mistborn would only need one crack to access all Allomantic powers. Do you know why you couldn't just have 2 or 3 Allomantic abilities naturally?