Yet another Recreance theory

[Eki]

Not sure if something similar has been proposed before.

When reading this thread, I started thinking about some things we know about the Heralds, the Honorblades, and the Nahel bond.

• Unlike normal shardblades, Honorblades don't seem to disappear if you drop them. (Presumably, you have to consciously unsummon it.) This can be seen when Taln collapses in the WoK epilogue, and when Szeth drops through the highstorm at the end of WoR.
• Taln's Honorblade was with him when he returned from Damnation. The Shin never had his blade.
• The other Heralds left their blades behind when they abandoned the Oathpact.

These things seem to suggest that the Honorblades themselves are very much connected to their specific Heralds, but also the Oathpact itself. Taln's blade seems to have gone with him to Damnation when he died, and the Heralds who did not want to go back left their blades behind. Why would they do that? Was the Honorblade the thing that facilitated the Pact?

We also know that the Nahel bond was an attempt by spren to copy what the Honorblades did. We've assumed this means giving access to stormlight and surges, but what if it went further than that?

What if all Knights Radiant, by virtue of having a Nahel bond, were accidentally partially included in the Oathpact, in some way? What if any Knight who dies while still connected to their spren is sent to Damnation, to be tortured indefinitely? What if that revelation is what led to the Recreance? Who would want to continue being a Knight, if it meant eternal Damnation?

There are some problems with this. For example, it doesn't explain why the existence of Surgebinders could lead to a new Desolation, which is something that many people (including one Herald) think. I would be surprised if the Recreance wasn't connected to that issue.

Also, in the case of the Heralds, the Blade goes with them (or they go with the Blade), as a part of the Oathpact, according to this theory. However, we can be fairly certain that this is not true for the spren who create the bonds - they can be traumatized by the death of their Knight, but they aren't sent to Braize, and can rebond with someone else. This could just be explained by the fact that spren and Honorblades are different. Spren are alive, for one. A bit of a cop-out answer, but hey!

Lastly, the Heralds return at every desolation, and no dead Knights do. And we have heard that keeping the Desolation at bay has been Taln's burden alone. If my theory is right, I think this can be explained by the fact that the Knights were never included in the Oathpact to begin with. Their inclusion is just accidental. That means that Odium has no obligation to fulfill his part of the bargain (whatever that means) with them. They are sent to Braize (because of the bond that imitates the Honorblades), but other than that, they don't affect the Desolations, they don't get to be sent back to Roshar, or anything. Just endless pain.

On that cheery note, what are your thoughts?

[Farnsworth]

I like the idea about the Radients being connected to the oathpact, but I don't think they are sent to damnation. I'm pretty sure that's just a Herald thing.

although, it would fit in with the idea of soldiers fighting for the Tranuiline halls, so many you are right.

[Eki]

11 hours ago, Figberts said:

although, it would fit in with the idea of soldiers fighting for the Tranuiline halls, so many you are right.

True! There were Desolations before there were (non-Herald) Surgebinders though, so that may depend on how old the idea of the Tranquiline Halls is.

[DeTess she/her]

It's a decent theoru which covers most bases. One comment I do have is that it doesn't explain why the KR made their defection so public. If this was the reason, why didn't they just go quietly in the night, instead of putting up the spectacle Dalinar witnessed in his visions?

[Eki]

27 minutes ago, randuir said:

It's a decent theoru which covers most bases. One comment I do have is that it doesn't explain why the KR made their defection so public. If this was the reason, why didn't they just go quietly in the night, instead of putting up the spectacle Dalinar witnessed in his visions?

I'm not sure. The whole "Stick your shardblade in the ground and walk away" thing mirrors what the Heralds did in the interlude, though.

And I don't know if most Knights did it the way Dalinar saw it. Honor said they were the first, but maybe the others really did just leave quietly.

[goody153]

Quote

What if all Knights Radiant, by virtue of having a Nahel bond, were accidentally partially included in the Oathpact, in some way? What if any Knight who dies while still connected to their spren is sent to Damnation, to be tortured indefinitely? What if that revelation is what led to the Recreance? Who would want to continue being a Knight, if it meant eternal Damnation?

On that cheery note, what are your thoughts?

Definitely not cheery but damnation i like this theory it makes alot of sense as to why the Radiants would betray their spren and it also fits the "save your own skin vs do the Honorable act" that is somewhat a theme of stormlight. 

[1stBondsmith he/him]

19 hours ago, Eki said:

• Unlike normal shardblades, Honorblades don't seem to disappear if you drop them. (Presumably, you have to consciously unsummon it.) This can be seen when Taln collapses in the WoK epilogue, and when Szeth drops through the highstorm at the end of WoR.
• Taln's Honorblade was with him when he returned from Damnation. The Shin never had his blade.
• The other Heralds left their blades behind when they abandoned the Oathpact.

These things seem to suggest that the Honorblades themselves are very much connected to their specific Heralds, but also the Oathpact itself. Taln's blade seems to have gone with him to Damnation when he died, and the Heralds who did not want to go back left their blades behind. Why would they do that? Was the Honorblade the thing that facilitated the Pact?

We also know that the Nahel bond was an attempt by spren to copy what the Honorblades did. We've assumed this means giving access to stormlight and surges, but what if it went further than that?

I really like your thinking on this part. The Honorblades do appear to be the token or key to participation in the Oathpact. This being the case, the original 9 who left the blades are out, Stonesinew is the only one left. So when he reappears, sword in hand, is he broken? We don't know for sure, but I think (lower case) so. Then he is discovered nearly mad, AND WITHOUT HIS BLADE, but carrying a shardblade. Was it taken from him, or did he yield it u? thus shattering the oathpact. Hoid seems to think that that was the indication of the word "pissing itself", so I think it is the end of the Oathpact. 

As for the spren copying the bond... they did, but I don't think participation in the oathpact is voluntary or possible, since Szeth is not part of it, neither could the KR join (with or without knowing about the consequences). This did make me think of something else. With such a strong bond to the blades (strong enough that the Nahel bond is an imitation only), this bonding with Honor (we have to assume since they are the Honorblades), would seem a good reason for the assumed shattered mental capacity of the Heralds. Just as spren lose memory and consciousness when the bond is broken, the Heralds also loose some when there bond is broken. A madness (screaming comes to mind) remains, still tied somewhat to the blades. Did not Szeth hear screaming when he used his blade? Would not such a blade, with such power seem a curing to the Stone Shamans who protect the blades? Would not one who weilds these, and must be ultimately subject to the master of a Stone also be considered of the lowest status? And would that not over time reduce the users of swords to a low rank? So can the Bonds with the Honorblade and the Heralds be remade, or has that ship sailed? Nahel Bonds can, apparently. What good in the larger fight against Odium would partial use blades be? Since the Heralds are functionally immortal, I see us needing them back, now that the last one has abandoned the Pact.

[Eki]

1 minute ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Then he is discovered nearly mad, AND WITHOUT HIS BLADE, but carrying a shardblade.

The one he arrives with in Kholinar is his Honorblade - it's swapped somewhere between then and him arriving on the Plains.

 

27 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

As for the spren copying the bond... they did, but I don't think participation in the oathpact is voluntary or possible, since Szeth is not part of it, neither could the KR join (with or without knowing about the consequences).

Well, the idea is that if they used the same mechanism as the Honorblades do, they accidentally create the same situation that allows Odium to hold them on Braize. They aren't really part of the Oathpact, but they give Odium power over them. You are right that Szeth didn't seem to go to Damnation when he died, but we don't know if he still had a connection to the Honorblade when he died, or if he would have gone there if he hadn't been revived. Or, indeed, if the connection is the same if someone other than the original Herald uses the blade.

Your connection between spren and Heralds is interesting. I do think we have a WoB that says that anyone in the Cosmere who did what Szeth did would hear screaming, though, so that's probably not because of him having an Honorblade.

[Spoolofwhool]

44 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Did not Szeth hear screaming when he used his blade?

IIRC, it was never said if Szeth heard screaming. Since it was never commented on, I doubt it happened. Kaladin definitely didn't hear screaming either when he held it.

45 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Since the Heralds are functionally immortal, I see us needing them back, now that the last one has abandoned the Pact.

What indication is there that Taln has abandoned the Oathpact? It seems more likely that he's still with it considering he's trying to warn the people to get ready so that they can survive the True Desolation, to the best of his abilities.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

17 minutes ago, Eki said:

The one he arrives with in Kholinar is his Honorblade - it's swapped somewhere between then and him arriving on the Plains.

I thought that is what I said. So He was still in tact when he arrived, but not with his blade later when he appeared more mad and broken. I suppose this was the last link to his crumbling sanity. 

Wouldn't it be crazy if all the shades Silence sees are past Radiants stuck in the Oathpact! I don't think Szeth goes to Damnation because he is not a Herald. And the Heralds seem immortal even without the blades, so I think the bond there is different that what spren do. I think the spren saw that a bond could be made (We do not know if Honorblades are sentient like shard blade spren are, so there is a big difference there if not). We don't have any examples of sentience in the Honorblades, but that doesn't mean there isn't. Vasher did make Nightblood after seeing the things on Roshar, so maybe your theory is sound. I think I will wait till we have some evidence of sentient Honorblades before I equivalate the spren bond to accidentally participating in the Oathpact.

Edited October 7, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
grammar

[Eki]

Just now, 1stBondsmith said:

I thought that is what I said. So He was still in tact when he arrived, but not with his blade later when he appeared more mad and broken. I suppose this was the last link to his crumbling sanity. 

Oh, sorry! You mentioned a quote by Hoid at the Kholinar gates, and that he was "discovered", so I assumed that's what you meant. Apologies.

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

What indication is there that Taln has abandoned the Oathpact? It seems more likely that he's still with it considering he's trying to warn the people to get ready so that they can survive the True Desolation, to the best of his abilities.

If the Honorblades really are important to the Oathpact, then he may have abandoned it involuntarily when his blade was separated from him. I'm guessing he hasn't though. But regardless, he was supposed to return just before a Desolation, and he did. If this really is the last Desolation, whether he broke the pact or not doesn't really matter.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

IIRC, it was never said if Szeth heard screaming. Since it was never commented on, I doubt it happened. Kaladin definitely didn't hear screaming either when he held it.

OK, this has been throwing e off long enough:

What are IIRC, XD, and IRL supposed to mean? I am not up on all the texting abbreviations.

If I remember reading them right, I thought the Admins said "we are all readers here", so abbreviations for non subject words was discouraged. I keep running into them and I misinterpret the intention of the post.

Screaming is not a logic gate for "so it must be an Honorblade". Just a hint maybe.

 

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

What indication is there that Taln has abandoned the Oathpact? It seems more likely that he's still with it considering he's trying to warn the people to get ready so that they can survive the True Desolation, to the best of his abilities.

The only indication that he may have, is that he does not have his Honorblade any more, after arriving with it. It must be intolerably difficult to take a blade that disappears when the owner dies. I think it must have been given away. This is how the other Heralds ended their oathpact participation, so I think it is safe to say Taln did it the same way. He may have been crazy, tricked, or something else, but I think the honorblade must be given away or the owner must die for it to be left.

P.S. Just remembered that there is a WoB saying that the Honorblades do not reappear when the owner dies. If this is true, where did they go in the past during Desolations when Heralds died? How did the Heralds get them back upon returning? Will we have some very surprised Stone Shamans and Truthless later?

Edited October 7, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
Added Post Script

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

What are IIRC, XD, and IRL supposed to mean? I am not up on all the texting abbreviations.

IIRC = if i recall/remember correctly, XD = (no idea, something to do with humor), IRL = in real life, afaik = as far as i know

Edit: As for the Oathpact, this is the most recent thing I can find (Q4)

Quote

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

That was March 19 of 2014. WoR came out on March 4th, so I believe that this one means it is not yet broken after the events of WoR

Edited October 7, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Thank you for the abbreviations.

Anyone else know what XD stands for?

So if the Oathpact is STILL not broken at the end of WoR. I wonder what is up. That they all thought leaving the blades would end it is still very significant, but I wonder what other parts are still in effect. Can't wait to find out.

[Eki]

XD is just a smiley, where the X is eyes and the D an open mouth.

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

P.S. Just remembered that there is a WoB saying that the Honorblades do not reappear when the owner dies. If this is true, where did they go in the past during Desolations when Heralds died? How did the Heralds get them back upon returning? Will we have some very surprised Stone Shamans and Truthless later?

I don't remember that WoB, but I assume the Honorblade would go with them to Damnation, which supports the idea that the Honorblades are important to the Pact.

[Tariniel he/him]

This is interesting...

Quote

EHYDE

And, how were the Radiants able to summon their Shardblades at the Recreance if they'd already decided to break their oaths?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Their Shardblades are part of what brought them to--part of the Oathpact--but breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Wouldn't it be crazy if all the shades Silence sees are past Radiants stuck in the Oathpact!

Shades are just cognitive shadows of people who died on Threnody under specific conditions. It wouldn't make sense for them to be anyone from Roshar since it would be extremely hard for them to get there.

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Screaming is not a logic gate for "so it must be an Honorblade". Just a hint maybe.

I don't really understand what you're meaning here, but Syl identified it as an Honorblade, and since the choices are an honorblade or a sprenblade, I feel like she's a pretty good authority on the matter.

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

P.S. Just remembered that there is a WoB saying that the Honorblades do not reappear when the owner dies. If this is true, where did they go in the past during Desolations when Heralds died? How did the Heralds get them back upon returning? Will we have some very surprised Stone Shamans and Truthless later?

The only do not reappear when the owning Herald dies I think. When the Herald dies, the blade disappears with them and I presume goes to Damnation with them.

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

So if the Oathpact is STILL not broken at the end of WoR. I wonder what is up. That they all thought leaving the blades would end it is still very significant, but I wonder what other parts are still in effect. Can't wait to find out.

I'm guessing that whatever the original reason the Oathpact was made is still in effect. Even though we don't know what it was. Also, I'm feeling like that fact that the Oathpact not being broken is indicative that Taln at least is still upholding it despite having misplaced his honorblade. It could also mean that the other Heralds are still bound to it as well, which I think may be the case as well.

One of my thoughts on the Oathpact is that its original design was about the Heralds swearing to protect and guide the Rosharans, with Honor giving them the power to do so in return. This worked until Odium arrived and the Heralds got more than they bargained for, which is why they broke. However, some of them are still working to uphold the spirit of the Oathpact now, such as Nale, by doing what he believes will stop the True Desolation from coming around. 

11 minutes ago, Tariniel said:

This is interesting...

Very interesting. My first thought is that it appears Brandon might've misheard the question a bit, considering he started talking about the Oathpact despite the question not talking about it. I'm curious about what he thought the question was about to give a bit more context to the answer.

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

If I remember reading them right, I thought the Admins said "we are all readers here", so abbreviations for non subject words was discouraged. I keep running into them and I misinterpret the intention of the post.

Nothing about that in the forum rules as far as I've seen. The "we are all readers here" rule just seems to be applying to the use of IM shorthand, like "u" for "you".

 

 

[Eki]

7 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Very interesting. My first thought is that it appears Brandon might've misheard the question a bit, considering he started talking about the Oathpact despite the question not talking about it. I'm curious about what he thought the question was about to give a bit more context to the answer.

Yeah, it seems a bit odd... Maybe he was thinking about the interlude? Or maybe he said "Oathpact" when he meant "Nahel bond"? I'm not sure...

[Xaklys he/him]

I agree with this theory a lot actually.  I do know that Tanavast/Honor/The Almighty died between Aharietiam and the Recreance.  I think it may have been the death of Honor that caused some kind of rift between the Knights Radiant and their spren, with the exception of one Order (my money is on the Stonewards because Taln is the only one that held true to the Oathpact).  The lack of Honor caused the Radiants to feel as though they could (or should) abandon their Oath just like their respective Heralds did.  The leaving of their Shards is reminiscent of what the Heralds did after the Last Desolation (may even have some Cognitive implications here since they were filling the roles of the Heralds as well as following in their footsteps).

Either way, solid theory.  It got me thinking anyway  You might be onto something.

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, Xaklys said:

I agree with this theory a lot actually.  I do know that Tanavast/Honor/The Almighty died between Aharietiam and the Recreance.  I think it may have been the death of Honor that caused some kind of rift between the Knights Radiant and their spren, with the exception of one Order (my money is on the Stonewards because Taln is the only one that held true to the Oathpact). 

Honor remembers the Recreance in the visions... he apparently died later.

I think the cause/effect may well go the other way ... the Recreance trapped a lot of Honor's Investiture (Splinters) as mostly inert dead Shardblades, weakening him against Odium.

[Xaklys he/him]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Honor remembers the Recreance in the visions... he apparently died later.

You may be onto something there, I never thought about it that way.

[Spoolofwhool]

12 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Honor remembers the Recreance in the visions... he apparently died later.

I think the cause/effect may well go the other way ... the Recreance trapped a lot of Honor's Investiture (Splinters) as mostly inert dead Shardblades, weakening him against Odium.

 

2 hours ago, Xaklys said:

You may be onto something there, I never thought about it that way.

There is a WoB on the matter, sort of, from a year ago:

Quote

QUESTION

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance

[Source]

In typical Brandon fashion, he didn't give us a straight answer, but it does look like he's leaning towards after, though it seems like he isn't 100% certain yet. I imagine it's going to be answered properly in the next couple books, or we'll be able to get a solid answer from him. For now, I'm assuming that he was shattered afterwards. 

[Eki]

Regardless, @Spoolofwhool, it seems like the two events are at least somewhat unconnected, which is interesting in and of itself.

Thanks to everyone who found the theory interesting, by the way! It's my first one big enough to make a topic about. I'm still not sure if I believe it myself, but I think there's some truth in it, at least.

 

[Argel he/him]

On 10/8/2016 at 3:50 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

In typical Brandon fashion, he didn't give us a straight answer, but it does look like he's leaning towards after, though it seems like he isn't 100% certain yet. I imagine it's going to be answered properly in the next couple books, or we'll be able to get a solid answer from him. For now, I'm assuming that he was shattered afterwards.

Continuity is not his strongest suit, which is is why he has e.g. Peter on staff. I thought the answer above was him just not fully committing because he needed to check his notes, the timeline, etc. That does seem to suggest they happened close in time to each other, which could support cometaryorbit's theory that the Recreance weakened Honor.

 

On 10/7/2016 at 5:54 PM, Eki said:

XD is just a smiley, where the X is eyes and the D an open mouth.

It's a loose replacement for LOL (Laughing Out Loud).

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/xd

[Subvisual Haze]

On 10/7/2016 at 8:26 PM, Xaklys said:

I agree with this theory a lot actually.  I do know that Tanavast/Honor/The Almighty died between Aharietiam and the Recreance.  I think it may have been the death of Honor that caused some kind of rift between the Knights Radiant and their spren, with the exception of one Order (my money is on the Stonewards because Taln is the only one that held true to the Oathpact).  The lack of Honor caused the Radiants to feel as though they could (or should) abandon their Oath just like their respective Heralds did.  The leaving of their Shards is reminiscent of what the Heralds did after the Last Desolation (may even have some Cognitive implications here since they were filling the roles of the Heralds as well as following in their footsteps).

Either way, solid theory.  It got me thinking anyway  You might be onto something.

The Stonewards being the exception seems highly unlikely to me.  The Dalinar vision that we "see" at the Feverstone Keep actually only has two orders of knights present at it: Windrunners and Stonewards.  There's two important implications from that in my opinion:

1) If you assume the vertical axis on the diagram of Knights Radiant Orders represents affinity to Honor (top) or Cultivation (bottom), then these two specific orders are the ones closest to Honor.  It makes sense that Honor would remember their defections specifically, as he likely felt them the mostly painfully knowing that they were most honor-aligned of the orders.

2) There may not have been just one Recreance.  It could have been a cluster of the various orders dissolving at slightly different times.