Is Hoid too intrusive a presence in the Stormlight Archive?

[Quiver he/him]

A meta discussion thread, since I don't think we have enough of those. 

As the title says...do you guys think that Hoid is too much of a presence in the Stormlight books?

As fans who are aware of the Cosmere, we can understand Hoid's presence in the books, why he is such a big deal, why he is interested in events, and how he connects to the metaplot of Honor, Cultivation and Odium.

But... I do wonder if the way Hoid is presented is a deterrent to readers who aren't familiar with the Cosmere.

Frankly, if I didn't know who Hoid was? My immediate guess would be "He's a Herald." After all, he shows up in unexpected places, has philosophical discussions with three point of view characters, is present for the return of two major characters in epilogues...

In previous books, Hoid has been an easter egg for eagle-eyed fans. In the Stormlight Archive, he's like a flashing neon sign...and I wonder how readers unfamiliar with the Cosmere will take his character, and how that effects their readings. Are they frustrated that Kaladin doesn't press Sigzil for information on the obviously important guy? That Dalinar isn't more suspicious of the King's jester appearing with "Taln" and running away?

Because I admit; it stands out to me. I enjoy the books -don't get me wrong- and I like finding Hoid in stuff, and wondering what he's doing; heck, Warbreaker is my favourite book, and it's becoming cosmere relevant in a big way!

But the complications Warbreaker brings to the series are going to be resolved in the Stormlight Archive. Since Nightblood and Vasher were originally meant for this series, they fit in a little more easily, and will presumably be fully explained and resolved within the narrative of Roshar, while Hoid...

Hoid can't be, because he's tied to the narrative of the larger universe. Unless Roshar gent's really heavy with the worldhopping as it goes on, I find it hard to see how Hoid can get a satisfying storyline and conclusion in this series, especially for readers who aren't familiar with the larger Cosmere.

Am I overthinking things?

[Eki]

I think this thread would be better off in Cosmere Theories, or at least tagged for Cosmere spoilers. I know there aren't any actual spoilers about the Cosmere (other than its existence), but still.

I read the first two Stormlight books with no idea of the Cosmere (other than noticing Nightblood, but that was the first thing that started tipping me off).

I had several theories about Wit (I think him being a Herald was one of them), but I never saw his mysteriousness as distracting or anything, just interesting.

I can see your point that someone who only reads SA won't get Hoid's complete arc, but I don't think that's necessarily a problem. There will always be mysteries at the end of long series. And in this case, there will actually be a way for those who wonder to learn more. I think, if I only read SA, I would be happy if the end of Hoid's storyline in book ten was "Work well done, now I'll take this mysterious artifact and walk into a body of water at the top of the Horneater Peaks" or something. I wouldn't understand it (but I could connect it to Rock's story about Wit coming out of a similar body of water), but I would also know that I wasn't supposed to understand it.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Eki

[Yata he/him]

I think In SA, Mister Sanderson wanted to made the people think to Hoid as a strange powerhouse (the ones who don't know the Cosmere's metaplot).

Dalinar himself talking to Hoid has some doubts about his role in the great Scheme.....If I don't remember wrong, He direcly asked to Hoid if he was an Herald to plant this seed in the readers' mind if they didn't think this possibility

[maxal she/her]

I read SA without having read one single WoB and without having any idea about the Cosmere. I had read Mistborn prior to it, but I never made any link in between both books. The fact Hoid is present in both series is something I had to be told because I would have never figured it out on my own. The same could be said about Warbreaker: had I not know Hoid was in it, I would have never guessed. I only saw it because I knew about it.

What were my thoughts about Wit then? Not much. I figured he was more than he appeared to be, but i didn't care so much about him. I assumed we would find out more about him as the story unfolds, but since he isn't exactly a major protagonist, I was not in a hurry. As a reader, I do tend to focus on the main characters, not on the side unless they turn out being very compelling. In the case of Wit, he doesn't have much when it comes to a personality, hence I read him as a plot device who's use would be further explored later on.

I suspect many readers must have had similar thoughts.

[nervousnerd he/him]

Yeah. I really think it is important to note that Hoid could and likely will get some kind of Roshar conclusion. Obviously his story has parts from before his time as Wit and he seems to have goals in mind besides Odium for after Roshar, but I think he has a specific purpose in Stormlight besides being an easter egg.

[Tariniel he/him]

I believe Hoid, sorry Wit, is exactly what Brandon wants him to be. For now, that could mean being a sort of mysterious character to the Comere-unaware, and a blatant easter egg to those who aren't, but that is how he needs to be seen at the moment. I doubt Brandon, whose view is much more expansive than ours, would let us down without Wit's very own conclusion and character arc. However, he is currently not that important when it comes down to it. Yes, he has influenced a couple of the main characters, but the majority of the story could still be told without him in it.

[Savanorn he/him]

I like this line of questioning. 

However, the key thing about this, for me, is to realise that Hoid is a character in the Stormlight Archive. He isn't an easter egg. Hoid cares about meddling with Rayse, who he actively dislikes, in a way he didn't seem nearly as invested in as on Scadrial or Nalthis. 

I imagine that SA is supposed to be the first published world where we get a bit of an idea about who Hoid is, what he cares to do, and where he comes from. Plus for whatever reason Roshar seems important to him. He features in the mythology, he was involved in the Ghostbloods, he features in the epigraphs, he's an active influence on Shallan's past. 

I did find him a little curious on my first read, as I was one of those who read WoK before anything else. But to be honest, I can't really remember my thoughts at the time other than that he stood out. 

[Rogueshar]

I've seen the quote before I just don't have a link to it, but Brandon Sanderson has said Hoid like to show up where "novel worthy" events are happening. For SA that's ten novels. Maybe unlike Warbreaker or the Mistborn series Hoid feels he needs to take a more active role, as active a role as he likes to take. Especially since these events seem to surround Odium, someone Hoid views as very dangerous as seen in the letters. That at least is my take on why Hoid seems more involved in SA than some of the other books.

[HelloMyNameIsDrBloodborne]

I mean, not really. I think being confused and thinking things are other things is part of the Stormlight experience. 

[Shardbearer he/him]

I'm used to fantasy having mysterious characters with a little too much knowledge popping up at opportune moments...

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

I believe that Brandon has said that the Stormlight Archive won't actually focus very much at all on events in the greater cosmere (especially in Oathbringer), so I'm thinking we'll see Hoid the character have a confrontation with Rayse the character in-world.  I don't think it's necessary to know the back story that three gods (Honor, Odium, and Cultivation) are at war with one another in this planet system - Hoid is only involved from the reader's perspective as a mysterious helper to support those fighting against one of the gods (Odium).

Now is it 100% cooler to know the backstory?  Does it make the interludes of worldhoppers looking for him make more sense?  Do the letters hold more weight knowing they come from powers within the greater cosmere?  Absolutely!  BUT, it doesn't seem necessary to know all of this to make sense of the story on Roshar.

[Chaos he/him]

This should be in Cosmere Theories. I am moving this topic to that forum.

[nervousnerd he/him]

The mention of the letter is interesting as well. Most epigraphs in cosmere books are in relation to something that is relevant to the specific story in which it is mentioned and can therefore be easily understood when one completes the series. The letter is likely not something that could be easily understood with just Stormlight unless in the coming books Hoid actually tells some characters who he is or where he comes from,.

[Pagerunner he/him]

As we learn more about the three Shards on Roshar and their conflict, I think we'll definitely get a picture of a larger backstory to Roshar in the Cosmere, something that's not uncommon in fantasy stories. One big example is in Lord of the Rings, where the extended worldbuilding found in the Silmarillion reveals that Gandalf, Sauron, and the Balrog are all the same kind of creature, like a kind of angel. There's a vast history of Sauron's mentor, and of the elves of Middle Earth, that isn't directly relevant to the heroes and their journey for the trilogy itself, but serves as an important foundation for the setting. We can understand that Gandalf and Sauron come from a different age without knowing every detail about that age, but the details are there for those who want them. The end of the series, as the elves go to the Grey Havens, is a part of a larger story, but it does have an impact on the main story.

To unabashedly twist part of your original post to fit with my example:

Gandalf can't be [fully explained and resolved within the narrative of Lord of the Rings], because he's tied to the narrative of the larger universe. Unless Lord of the Rings gent's really heavy with the history as it goes on, I find it hard to see how Gandalf can get a satisfying storyline and conclusion in this series, especially for readers who aren't familiar with the Silmarillion.

So, yes, I think we'll definitely see in the Stormlight Archive that Hoid is larger than the Stormlight Archive, the same way the Shards are larger as well. But that doesn't mean we'll need to know everything about that backstory. The books are about the characters, not about the Shards; because the stories exist in a larger universe, there will be supporting setpieces that extend beyond the scope of the series, but hey, even Da Vinci left the legs off of the Mona Lisa. She had them[citation needed], but you don't need to see them to appreciate the painting.

[Djarskublar he/him]

17 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

As we learn more about the three Shards on Roshar and their conflict, I think we'll definitely get a picture of a larger backstory to Roshar in the Cosmere, something that's not uncommon in fantasy stories. One big example is in Lord of the Rings, where the extended worldbuilding found in the Silmarillion reveals that Gandalf, Sauron, and the Balrog are all the same kind of creature, like a kind of angel. There's a vast history of Sauron's mentor, and of the elves of Middle Earth, that isn't directly relevant to the heroes and their journey for the trilogy itself, but serves as an important foundation for the setting. We can understand that Gandalf and Sauron come from a different age without knowing every detail about that age, but the details are there for those who want them. The end of the series, as the elves go to the Grey Havens, is a part of a larger story, but it does have an impact on the main story.

To unabashedly twist part of your original post to fit with my example:

 

 

So, yes, I think we'll definitely see in the Stormlight Archive that Hoid is larger than the Stormlight Archive, the same way the Shards are larger as well. But that doesn't mean we'll need to know everything about that backstory. The books are about the characters, not about the Shards; because the stories exist in a larger universe, there will be supporting setpieces that extend beyond the scope of the series, but hey, even Da Vinci left the legs off of the Mona Lisa. She had them[citation needed], but you don't need to see them to appreciate the painting.

Upvote just for citation needed! I would say that Middle Earth isn't as detail intense as Stormlight from a worldbuilding perspective. Then again, I highly disliked LotR... It was just too convenient too often. The characters barely struggle themselves, they just have good ol' Gandalf do all the heavy lifting for them. Not knowing anything about the wider cosmology of it when I read it, it just felt... contrived and stupid. I know more now, but it hasn't changed my opinion. That is a total tangent, and I would rather any discussion on it be in PM form.

[Eki]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Da Vinci left the legs off of the Mona Lisa. She had them[citation needed],

Is there a WoB on this? Or a WodV?

[Argel he/him]

It can be hard to track down, but there's a WoB -- actually, I think from an interview -- that his biggest concern is letting too much Cosmere stuff slip into SA, because he wants SA to stand on it's own.

7 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

The mention of the letter is interesting as well. Most epigraphs in cosmere books are in relation to something that is relevant to the specific story in which it is mentioned and can therefore be easily understood when one completes the series. The letter is likely not something that could be easily understood with just Stormlight unless in the coming books Hoid actually tells some characters who he is or where he comes from,.

I doubt Hoid will reveal too much that is outside of the Roshar system. There are two other planets with sentient life though, so world-hopping between those could come into play.

If nothing else, the Letters help establish that Hoid and Wit are the same person. Anyone remember which alias Hoid was using when he met Shallan and her father? The letters may be meant more for the Cosmere aware, just written in such a way as to not be too spoilery for those not Cosmere aware.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Argel
typos

[nervousnerd he/him]

Yeah I thought that might be it too. Acording to a lot of his annotations, Brandon thinks a lot of people skip epigraphs.

Hoid never gave Shallan a name from what I recall. Hence her callin him 'You.'

[Argel he/him]

I could see "casual" readers skipping them, especially considering the letters are spread out across chapters and books. So they could definitely be there for the hardcore fans. And any readers that start with SA and are interested in them will likely eventually learn about the Cosmere and join the hardcore fanbase.  So, it does seem like one of the safest places to slip more in. Probably ditto for the Ars Acanum.

[Oversleep]

The way I see it... It's just like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. When I've seen Iron Man the first time I did not know what that agent was talking about or what that guy in the stinger was about. Who is that guy who gave Loki the scepter was a mystery and something to wonder about.

So Hoid is just a mysterious character who knows much more than he lets slip and is somebody a casual reader will identify as such. Much more with the Elantris 10th Anniversary Edition stinger.

[Wubdor he/him]

I honestly have no idea how I'd see Wit without knowing of the Cosmere. I also accidentally spoiled it for myself and read that Wit is Hoid before he revealed it himself. It's hard to imagine who I'd think he'd be if I didn't know anything about him and the Cosmere. I think it's nice that he's more prominent this time around, though. He's been mysterious for so long, and still is, but I always wanted to see more of him than just a single quick scene. SA is really taking off in the fantasy genre, so a lot of people are getting familiar with Brandon through SA. With Hoid being on the foreground so much, new readers might spot him much quicker in other Cosmere series and become aware of the overarching universe. (I'll admit I never noticed Hoid until people pointed it out to me, despite his having revealed his name on multiple occasions throughout different series. (This was before I read SA.))

Edited October 17, 2016 by Wubdor

[1stBondsmith he/him]

@Wubdor is right about the speed of the reveal. It was years after first Mistborn trilogy that I even cared that there was a Hoid, and I read every book as they came out. At TWoK I figured I needed a reread of all the others to become "Cosmerely Aware". I've had to double read all the books since to pick up on the things I had no idea anyone would plant into books that at the time seemed disassociated. Now I want much more Wit and appreciate Sanderson's better.