The Recreance, the Great Subterfuge, and Dalinar's Vision of the Recreance

[Argel he/him]

Cleaned up version:

1. We know one order of KRs did not betray their oaths, concealing that with great subterfuge.
2. We see two orders (Windrunners and Stonewards) in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance
3. When trying to answer the question of which order is was, point 2 is used rule those two orders out.

But is that valid? Or could the "great subterfuge" be that e.g. the Stonewards either faked their participation or they had most of their members participate to conceal that a small number did not?

This has come up in a few threads now, but more as a comment/idea. I decided to start this thread to discuss how viable one or both are. Note that these could apply to the other orders as well, but the obvious interest is the Stonewards.

Pros to faking participation in the Recreance:

• Still have the entire team together.

Cons to faking participation in the Recreance:

• Requires some impressive illusions, which suggests the Lightweavers are most likely able to pull this off. But we have no reason to suspect them, and a lot of recent theories favor linking the Stormwards with the Shin.
• That's a big secret to keep, especially over time. And a lot of people to keep that secret. Shouldn't something have worked its way into the history books? Or should Honor have taken notice? It seems like they would need to go to ground or come up with a mass cover. 
• How the heck do you keep the spren from blabbing?
• If every order participated with at least one other order:
  • Would the "faking-their-death" spren really want to be anywhere near a bunch of their spren actually dying? And even if they thought they could tough it out, could they really? 

Pros to actually participating in the Recreance:

• In theory much easier to keep a secret.
• The Stonewards+Shin tie-in makes a lot of sense thematically, and this makes that possible.
  • Moreso if only 8 remained as part of the order.
  • It could explain certain views the Shin have (with such a high price to pay, they may abhor violence -- or that was part of the cover, that may have over time become a new adopted philosophy. ) and why they have the honorblades.

Cons to actually participating in the Recreance:

• Wow, that's a major sacrifice if you don't actually agree with it.
• ???

Some random thoughts/questions:

How likely would any non-bonded spren notice the subterfuge? 

Would Honor notice? And if so, why not mention the order in the visions? Because he could not predict what state they would be in? Still, why not even throw in a quick line about trying to contact the this order? Was he in on the subterfuge? The Stormfather hasn't had a chance to mention it yet?

When was Vorin religoen and the Ardents formed? In the "faking participation" scenario, that could be one way to cover up what happened, but I thought both predated the Recreance? Though that may not stop a mass influx of ardents (and they may be able to wipe that from the history books).

Is there any other group or city that they could have gone to or formed? How long have the Shin been around (or their leaders)?

I am particularly interested in ways that the subterfuge may have been noticed. For example, would it be easier from Shadesmar? If Honor, Cultivation, or Odium noticed, would they leave us any hints (and what may those be)?

Edited October 11, 2016 by Argel
Massive rewrite at Argent's suggestion; Fixed Stonewardens (now Stonewards)

[Argent he/him]

Not having seen any one of the four times you've raised this very point, seeing this thread leaves me... confused. There is context to your idea, but I don't have it, so it looks a little like a pile of messy thoughts. Perhaps you could revise a little, with clarification in mind?

[Eki]

What I'm wondering the most about when it comes to this great subterfuge, is that it was apparently at the expense of the other orders. If they just hid, why would it hurt the others? They must have done something, like abandon them at a crucial moment, or maybe they actively helped some opposing force...

[Argel he/him]

@Argent, I just did a massive rewrite that I hope is a big improvement!! Thanks for the feedback!! 

 

7 hours ago, Eki said:

What I'm wondering the most about when it comes to this great subterfuge, is that it was apparently at the expense of the other orders. If they just hid, why would it hurt the others? They must have done something, like abandon them at a crucial moment, or maybe they actively helped some opposing force...

What about the teachings about the KRs abandoning everyone? If the remaining order worked that into the religion...

Also, someone  @cometaryorbit just posted a theory (well, an idea) that that the Recreance weakened Honor, making it easier for Odium to kill him.

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by Argel
Minor tweaks; @cometaryorbit reference

[Xaklys he/him]

I think the subterfuge being at the expense of the other nine means that they remained hidden while the other Orders were forced to forsake their Oaths.  I'm team Stoneward when it comes to the Order that didn't fall but as it has been pointed out, Dalinar witnessed some Stonewards forsake their Oaths and lay down their Shardblades in one of his visions.  BUT, as @Argel pointed out, there is a lot of apparent connections between the Stonewards and the Shin Stone Shamans.  In the end though, we don't have enough information yet as to what caused the Recreance and which Order could have possibly survived considering the situation.

The Shin Stone Shamans and their belief structure treats the stones as sacred and ward them from being walked upon, according to Szeth.  It could be possible that something is very special about the stone that Roshar needed to be kept in the dark about, thus why they were so hasty in banishing Szeth and naming him Truthless.  This could possibly be the thunderclasts that we have seen a few times in visions.

[Argel he/him]

It could also explain why Nalan is so interested in taking the Shin leadership out.

[Savanorn he/him]

I really dislike the Stoneward/Stone Shaman connection theory.

If nothing else, it would seem to run contrary to what the Stonewards are. They are the "stand you ground right or wrong" sort of guys and girls. It would seem to me that they wouldn't fake participation, they'd just ignore the order to do so. 

To clarify, it isn't non participation that I have an issue with, it is the way they allegedly did it. 

But on a side note, didn't something make its way into the history books? Isn't that what we are talking about by referencing Words of Radiance (the in world)? 

So yeah. The theory is possible. But I don't like it, and I don't consider it as likely as another order being the traitor. 

 

[Argel he/him]

Note that any order could have used at least the partial-participation theory. That happens to support the Stoneward+Shin theories, but is there any thing else that would rule it out?

Regarding the Stonewards, the "less care" quote below could fit the Stoneward+Shin theories. Maybe not the best fit, but there was a less savory side to them that should not be overlooked.

Quote

 Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1

 

Regarding "at the expense of the others"....

Quote

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.  —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20

If this remaining order lied about participating and then betrayed the other orders to e.g. the two thousand, then that could be enough to fit the style of prose being used.

[Rogueshar]

22 hours ago, Argel said:

When was Vorin religoen and the Ardents formed? In the "faking participation" scenario, that could be one way to cover up what happened, but I thought both predated the Recreance? Though that may not stop a mass influx of ardents (and they may be able to wipe that from the history books).

 

I really like this idea.There really isn't much information on the formation of the Vorin religion, only that at some point after the Recreance, the ardents tried to take over the world during the Hierocracy.

"The Hierocracy had been a time when the ardents attempted to conquer the world and control the people "for their own good." The Hierocracy is considered the failure of Vorinism.^[3] Priests controlled what people learned, what religious paths they followed, and the overall doctrine. The priests claimed to see visions and prophecy, and claimed that the common people could not understand theology"

There could be more to the Hierocracy than we first though, something to do with the Knights Radients maybe? Who knowes (well Brandon likely does), maybe I'm crazy or reading too much into this.

[Argent he/him]

19 hours ago, Argel said:

@Argent, I just did a massive rewrite that I hope is a big improvement!! Thanks for the feedback!! 

Looks much better now

[Rogueshar]

I wanted to point something out about the Shin+Stormwarden theory, I don't know if its a detraction or not but in WoR chapter 47 Shallan is reading a book written by the Shin about Urithiru:

"Urithiru was the connection to all nations... [a]nd at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed." (this is on 565 in the soft cover version)

I would think then that the Shinnovar Stone Shamman would then pre-date the Recreance and couldn't be the Stonewardens.

[Xaklys he/him]

1 hour ago, skeene1 said:

I wanted to point something out about the Shin+Stormwarden theory, I don't know if its a detraction or not but in WoR chapter 47 Shallan is reading a book written by the Shin about Urithiru:

"Urithiru was the connection to all nations... [a]nd at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed." (this is on 565 in the soft cover version)

I would think then that the Shinnovar Stone Shamman would then pre-date the Recreance and couldn't be the Stonewardens.

This could also very well be the case, I've only read the books once a piece because I'm such a slow reader and I don't tend to reread books very often.

Also, just for clarification, it's Stonewards, not Stonewardens XD

[BrightVoid he/him]

Another theory I have seen thrown around is that the truthwatchers, by far the most secretive order, assimilated into and proceeded to take control of the Ardentia. 

 

[Argel he/him]

That could fit in with the Hiearcracy problems @skeene1 mention above, and they are probably one of the few orders that could pull off the "faking participation" theory.

Now that I think about it more, doesn't one of the two above theories need to be true? That is, if one order just flat out did not participate then it would not be a secret, so whoever it was had to fake their participation in the Recreance or have a subset participate to mask that some did not.

That's assuming the in-world WoR is accurate.

 

[Xaklys he/him]

9 hours ago, BrightVoid said:

Another theory I have seen thrown around is that the truthwatchers, by far the most secretive order, assimilated into and proceeded to take control of the Ardentia. 

 

The only reason I see a big problem with that is that the Ardentia claim that seeing events that haven't happened yet is of the Voidbringers.  I don't think they would get along well with the Truthwatchers in that regard.

[marianmi]

1 hour ago, Xaklys said:

The only reason I see a big problem with that is that the Ardentia claim that seeing events that haven't happened yet is of the Voidbringers.  I don't think they would get along well with the Truthwatchers in that regard.

But maybe this is the great subterfuge  infiltrating those that would otherwise hunt them...

[Xaklys he/him]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

But maybe this is the great subterfuge  infiltrating those that would otherwise hunt them...

True, that would be some rather stellar subterfuge

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

16 hours ago, Xaklys said:

The only reason I see a big problem with that is that the Ardentia claim that seeing events that haven't happened yet is of the Voidbringers.  I don't think they would get along well with the Truthwatchers in that regard.

I'm sure its around the forums somewhere, but there was an idea a while back that coined the idea that pre-Heirocracy Ardentia was Truthwatchers/infiltrated by Truthwatchers. Heirocratic claims of visions was connected with the idea that Truthwatchers had visions. Basically, it built upon the fact that the "future sight = voidbringer" idea was created by the Sunmaker, who ended the Heirocracy and drilled that mindset into Vorinism.

There's a decently large timegap between the Recreance and the Heirocracy though, so it's probably not how it played out. It was a good idea, since it keeps popping up.

[Xaklys he/him]

9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm sure its around the forums somewhere, but there was an idea a while back that coined the idea that pre-Heirocracy Ardentia was Truthwatchers/infiltrated by Truthwatchers. Heirocratic claims of visions was connected with the idea that Truthwatchers had visions. Basically, it built upon the fact that the "future sight = voidbringer" idea was created by the Sunmaker, who ended the Heirocracy and drilled that mindset into Vorinism.

There's a decently large timegap between the Recreance and the Heirocracy though, so it's probably not how it played out. It was a good idea, since it keeps popping up.

I didn't even think of this, I like this though.  Thanks!  This was really well put, sir.