People Blocking Steelpushes/Ironpulls

[Entreos]

I'm kind of curious as to why and when ironpulls/steelpushes can be blocked by having the affected metal in one's body. Here are a few questions that I haven't been able to find a definite answer for:

1. Are pushes on metals inside your own body resisted?
2. Are pushes on metals inside a dead body resisted?
   1. If you can push on metals inside a dead body, exactly when is the body considered dead?
      1. Is it about blood flow, like hemalurgy? Or some other way of detecting death besides supernaturally?
      2. For example, BoM spoiler, 
         Spoiler

         While Wax "dies" and is talking to harmony, could you push on metals in his body? Before he "returns"?

          

3. Are pushes on metals inside a frog or other "normal" animal resisted?
4. Are pushes on metals inside an amputated limb resisted?
5. Are pushes on metals inside someone not from Scadrial resisted?

EDIT: Changed "Can you push..." to "Are pushes on...resisted" to clarify meaning. I understand that with enough power these barriers can be overcome, I'm merely interested whether these count as the same "barrier" as a living person does.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Entreos
Changed "Can you push..." to "Are pushes on...resisted" to clarify meaning. I understand that with enough power these barriers can be overcome, I'm merely interested whether these count as the same "barrier" as a living person does.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

15 minutes ago, Entreos said:

I'm kind of curious as to why and when ironpulls/steelpushes can be blocked by having the affected metal in one's body. Here are a few questions that I haven't been able to find a definite answer for:

1. Can you push on metals inside your own body?
2. Can you push on metals inside a dead body?
   1. If you can push on metals inside a dead body, exactly when is the body considered dead?
      1. Is it about blood flow, like hemalurgy? Or some other way of detecting death besides supernaturally?
      2. For example, BoM spoiler, 
           Reveal hidden contents

         While Wax "dies" and is talking to harmony, could you push on metals in his body? Before he "returns"?

          

3. Can you push on metals inside a frog or other "normal" animal?
4. Can you push on metals inside an amputated limb?
5. Can you push on metals inside someone not from Scadrial?

1. Brandon has referred to something called "soul interference" as the reason it is difficult to do. With enough power, you can push/pull anything. You just need to overcome that interference. So yes, but not easy.

2. Most likely.

  2.1) I imagine what counts as death in our world is dead.

    2.1.1) Blood Flow, Spiritual Connections, maybe a few others..

    2.1.2) That could go either way

3. I imagine so, but don't know for sure.

4. Amputated.. Probably. It'd function like a Shardblade cut limb, so I figure you can push on it.

5. "Soul Interference" is a property of Investiture and of the Spiritual Realm, both of which care little about things like time/place. It isn't specific to Scadrial, so you still need more power to push on metal inside the body. So yes, but not easy. 

[Yata he/him]

Like @The One Who Connects said, it's a passive propriety of Investiture, Investiture interferences with other Investiture.

What it happens is that a Soul of someone (made by Investiture) works as Shield. Of course you may overcome this "shield" with enogh Power (like in the first book Rashek does) and more invested being have a better "shield" (for example is harder to affect metal within an Allomancer while he is burning metals, or a Metalmind is harder to push/pull as greater is the Feruchemical Charge within it).

All this to say that also an Animal would shield metals from pull/push but less than an human being.

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/14/2016 at 11:40 AM, Yata said:

All this to say that also an Animal would shield metals from pull/push but less than an human being.

Are we sure of this? Animals have a Spiritual aspect (though probably less powerful than humans), but I don't know if they have Innate Investiture the way Cosmere humans (with the possible exception of Drabs) do.

[Spoolofwhool]

30 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Are we sure of this? Animals have a Spiritual aspect (though probably less powerful than humans), but I don't know if they have Innate Investiture the way Cosmere humans (with the possible exception of Drabs) do.

Everything had some measure of innate investiture. Innate investiture gives sentience, and since practically all animals are sentient, they have some degree of innate investiture. Also, I believe it has been said that you can use hemalurgy to steal attributes from animals, confirming again that they have some innate investiture. Finally, my impression was that spiritual aspect was innate investiture, or rather, for the most part, is.

Also, drabs have innate investiture, just less.

[cometaryorbit]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Everything had some measure of innate investiture. Innate investiture gives sentience, and since practically all animals are sentient, they have some degree of innate investiture.

While it may not be strictly correct, I'm pretty sure "sentience" is used to mean "human-level intelligence" in that context... the context is clearly that humans are unique among all of Ruin and Preservation's creations.

Quote

Also, I believe it has been said that you can use hemalurgy to steal attributes from animals, confirming again that they have some innate investiture. Finally, my impression was that spiritual aspect was innate investiture, or rather, for the most part, is.

I don't think we really know the relationship between Investiture and Spiritual Aspects, but I doubt they're identical, given that Investiture is just one of four Feruchemical Spiritual attributes.

Yeah, Hemalurgy can steal from animals. That's probably the best evidence that animals are Invested, but IMO it's not certain until we know more about exactly what Hemalurgy steals when you're stealing something other than a specific power (Strength, Senses, etc.) The HoA epigraphs refer to stealing the bit of Preservation in someone's soul, but would that mean you can't steal Human Strength/Senses/etc. from someone from Roshar or Nalthis? I doubt it... And what about someone from a Shardless planet?

Quote

Also, drabs have innate investiture, just less.

WOB is contradictory on this:

http://theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='drabs'

Herowannabe

That was actually going to be my next one- No, sorry, not a drab, a Lifeless.

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless. Lifeless are kinda weird, because they’ve had their soul leave, but then they’ve had a replacement stuck in, in the form of Breath, which puts them in a really weird position compared to a Drab, which has had part of their investiture ripped away, but the majority of it remains. So anyway, I’m going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

but

Question

Do all the humans have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet. [Drabs] do not have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

(my emphasis)

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

While it may not be strictly correct, I'm pretty sure "sentience" is used to mean "human-level intelligence" in that context... the context is clearly that humans are unique among all of Ruin and Preservation's creations.

Considering Brandon uses sentience correctly to indicate self-awareness, it seems extremely unlikely he would use it for a different definition elsewhere. Even though humans are unique, everything else still has some measure of investiture in them from Ruin and Preservation, humans just have more Preservation. I don't see why beings wouldn't be considered to have innate investiture without the imbalance. 

My bad on Drab innate investiture though. I guess I was confused by another WoB which said that Drabs just had part of their investiture ripped away, but the majority of it remained. 

 

[cometaryorbit]

18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Considering Brandon uses sentience correctly to indicate self-awareness, it seems extremely unlikely he would use it for a different definition elsewhere.

Well, the HOA Chapter 54 epigraph says,

Quote

 

This, then, was their bargain. Preservation got mankind, the only creations that had more Preservation than Ruin in them, rather than a balance. Independent life that could think and feel.

 

So what was done is explicitly unique to humans.

32 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 Even though humans are unique, everything else still has some measure of investiture in them from Ruin and Preservation, humans just have more Preservation. I don't see why beings wouldn't be considered to have innate investiture without the imbalance.

Well, this touches on stuff which as far as I know is not completely explained yet regarding the nature of Investiture, its different forms, and converting it.

Everything on Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation (R&P), even the planet itself. But everything except humans, atium, lerasium seems to be an exact 50/50. And even atium doesn't act Invested - Vin can Push on it.

I think it's the difference between converting Investiture into matter/energy and Investing someone/something. All Scadrian matter is 'composed of', converted from, the Investiture of Ruin and Preservation. And R&P retain a link to it. But it's not Invested in the way things like a hemalurgic spike or metalmind are. I think the difference between humans and other creations of R&P is the same sort of thing.

33 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My bad on Drab innate investiture though. I guess I was confused by another WoB which said that Drabs just had part of their investiture ripped away, but the majority of it remained. 

Yeah, this is outright contradictory. And both WOBs are from the WOR release (though different interviews), so it doesn't seem to be a matter of Brandon changing his mind as the Cosmere developed.

 

[Yata he/him]

Probably the Problem is semanthic what Brandon calls "Innate Investiture" may mean something different to him than what We think. Maybe to him Innate Investiture means just "a surplus of Investiture".

Anyway a Drab is not very different by someone who was victim of Hemalurgy and survived (unlikely but possible). Both of them remain sapient and both of them have yet a decent amount of Soul.

Ths Soul is made by Investiture and the Investiture interferences with Investiture. This mean in a scale of "passive Shield" Drab<Standard Human<Scadrial<Regular Nalthian<Standard Returned<Susebron....Probably Rashek would be unable to affect something inside Susebron.

Notice that Vin isn't really surprised when she hide Metal in a Kandra and the metal isn't spottable with Steelsight or is never stated that an Allomancer see the metal inside an animal (for example the "wolf" Vin buy and kill)

[Brightshade the Cunning]

On 10/14/2016 at 9:04 AM, Entreos said:

Are pushes on metals inside a dead body resisted?

If you can push on metals inside a dead body, exactly when is the body considered dead?

This is a spoiler for Secret History so read my reply at your own risk

Spoiler

Kelsier sees people's souls the same way he sees metal, until they die and their cognitive shadow talks with Preservation. So death is death as normal, and the "soul interference" that makes it harder to push/pull metals within a body should be gone.