Why Scadrian magic users are pretty rusted

[Savanorn he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think so. As Brandon has stated, the genes for feruchemy, at least, are deteriorated by the genes of allomancy, with possible vice-versa. The only way someone could be a natural fullborn would be if you someone prevented the deterioration, which at that point it wouldn't be considered natural.  

Feruchemy was naturally implemented into the Scandrians at the beginning of the world, like allomancy. Those who used it probably gathered together to become the Terris people, which is why is wasn't seem much outside of the Terris. 

Actually, it's pretty notable that to have so much breeding between feruchemy genes seems to have eliminated the potential for allomancy. At all. As I recall, the Terris didn't suffer from the mists as of HoA at all. 

Like, the Terris people were relatively isolated and evidently 'bred up' their F genes, but in doing so lost their A genes. This might even explain how, despite losing big populations of active feruchemists and selective breeding feruchemy just kept coming back to their genes. 

The rest of the world, apparently, accidentally bred up their A genes and lost their F genes. 

I'm a little puzzled as to how this could have happened, though, as F genes are always on and relatively overt while A genes seem so subtle...

Unless not everyone was equally given F and A genes to begin with, or perhaps being so close to the WoA and thus Ruin's prison somehow raised the likelihood of F genes appearing in the Terris people. 

Basically, at the WoA you have a mix of both Ruin and Preservation, so it makes sense that the people close to this might be, over the many many generations, subtly endowed with a greater proportion of the art that is the mix of these powers.

Of course the major dispute to this would be that, so far as we know, people in tFE Luthadel don't accidentally or spontaneously develop feruchemical powers.

But, then again, they are already A-gene dominant and receiving regular 'infusions' thanks to noble crossbreeding and if the changes were subtle it's easy to see how this effect could be eliminated. 

To further ramble about my hypothetical model for how sDNA works...

It is mentioned that a lot of the F and A genes have been weakened over time, allomancer has definitely decline substantially since the Terris Ascension and so maybe if a strong feruchemist and allomancer had children they could be Fullborn, but maybe by the time of AoL such a thing is largely impossible.

Like, to add some figures, let us say that...

A lerasium mistborn has a AsDNA 'rating' of 0.95

A feruchemist has an FsDNA 'rating' of 0.95 

In this model breeding them represents a multiplication of the two genes. Now, it weakens both, but has the possibility for their immediate issue to be Fullborn. To arbitrarily pick a number, if the sum of the two is over, say, 0.75 a Fullborn is possible, if it is less it cannot happen, the 'spirit genes' have degenerated too much and become too weak. A twinborn can still occur, or other allomancers or ferrings, but any issue is going to be allomantically or feruchemically weaker.  

Now, it's worth noting that as of TFE, using my theoretical model, the 'gene stock' might already be severely degenerated.

Like, by TFE a mistborn might have a 'rating' of 0.7 or less. It may already have been impossible to generate fullborn, but there's no reason Rashek would know this.

So we come to AoL and the 'average sDNA' rating might be something like 0.4, it makes a lot of sense that under such a system 

Additional stuff:

->I think that there also might be a 'tolerance margin' that if exceeded simply grants that one power. So if one were to breed a 0.8 Allomancer and a 0.4 Feruborn, the result would also be pretty much always an allomancer, as these genes seem to dominate. So it's not enough to have the genes, you might also have to be within, say, 0.2 of each to grant 'twinborn' powers. Or perhaps the further the higher the 'tolerance' the less likely twinborn powers are.

->I think that it's probably more complex than this model, because, this model would predict that a decline once started would rapidly result in huge losses of power over the generations, which we don't know, but would seem unlikely. 

-> the above model would work differently for F/F or A/A pairings. 

-> for the sake of clarity I've presumed that whoever has the right Sgenes is an active metallomancer, obviously this need not be true. 

So, yeah, this seems a robust, if vague, model that takes all we know and doesn't require any stretching of canon or WoBs. 

 

[DeadFencer]

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Feruchemy was naturally implemented into the Scandrians at the beginning of the world, like allomancy. Those who used it probably gathered together to become the Terris people, which is why is wasn't seem much outside of the Terris. 

Although interesting and not something I've thought of before, this is all theory. Also remember that there are relatively natural ways to create a Fullborn. Ingesting Lerasium, for instance, could allow creation of a Fullborn without the direct sDNA rewriting Rashek did.

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, SafestPear said:

Although interesting and not something I've thought of before, this is all theory. Also remember that there are relatively natural ways to create a Fullborn. Ingesting Lerasium, for instance, could allow creation of a Fullborn without the direct sDNA rewriting Rashek did.

I believe that we're using natural in the sense of occurring through genetic mixing of sDNA. So anything which involves directly rewriting the sDNA, such as how Rashek did when he was ascended or using Lerasium isn't natural.

[DeadFencer]

That actually raises an even more interesting question. How natural is Lerasium? Is it created on its own as a by-product of Preservation's power, or was it invented by Rashek to bestow a portion of Preservation's power on people?

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, SafestPear said:

That actually raises an even more interesting question. How natural is Lerasium? Is it created on its own as a by-product of Preservation's power, or was it invented by Rashek to bestow a portion of Preservation's power on people?

Rashek didn't create the Lerasium, He have to search it and find it in his Conquest. Probably the Lerasium's beads were made and left by Preservation to his long term plan.

About the Feruchemy's Origin, I think Preservation manipulated the Terrismen with the Terris Prophecies into gain the Feruchemy. This may be done with the Lerasium's overwriting Spiritweb, maybe using with an alloy of Atium. Something about re-craft the Soul to be without the Preservation surplus. The Terris's immunity to Mistsickness is a clue about this...but in the end is just a theory (I have really to update my Theory's thread)

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Hey guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a WOB that says that Fullborn aren't naturally possible and require either lerasium or a sDNA ovwerwrite by a shard?

[Savanorn he/him]

15 hours ago, Yata said:

Rashek didn't create the Lerasium, He have to search it and find it in his Conquest. Probably the Lerasium's beads were made and left by Preservation to his long term plan.

About the Feruchemy's Origin, I think Preservation manipulated the Terrismen with the Terris Prophecies into gain the Feruchemy. This may be done with the Lerasium's overwriting Spiritweb, maybe using with an alloy of Atium. Something about re-craft the Soul to be without the Preservation surplus. The Terris's immunity to Mistsickness is a clue about this...but in the end is just a theory (I have really to update my Theory's thread)

To throw in...I think sentient life on Scadrial requires that slight preservation surplus. 

The Terris are immune to 'mistsickness' because they cannot be Allomancers and the mists only Snap unsnapped Allomancers.

It's why the nobility was also immune. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Savanorn

[Oversleep]

45 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

It's why the nobility was also immune.

Largely immune. Not totally but due to ritual beatings most of them were Snapped and so mist-snappings were rare among nobles.

The question is whether Terris were absolutely immune to mist sickness. I mean, mists actively added Investiture and gave a lot of stress on human body so that people who wouldn't have Snapped in normal conditions would Snap. Of course, due to skaa-noble interbreeding skaa had some Allomantic blood which could be traced back to lerasium... but Terris didn't so they couldn't be mistfallen. But all of people have seeds of Metallic Arts even without lerasium as evidenced by Alendi who was a Seeker and mistfallen around Alendi's time. I am not sure about mistfallen of that time...

To put this question better: would Southeners be suspectible to mist sickness?

[Savanorn he/him]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Largely immune. Not totally but due to ritual beatings most of them were Snapped and so mist-snappings were rare among nobles.

The question is whether Terris were absolutely immune to mist sickness. I mean, mists actively added Investiture and gave a lot of stress on human body so that people who wouldn't have Snapped in normal conditions would Snap. Of course, due to skaa-noble interbreeding skaa had some Allomantic blood which could be traced back to lerasium... but Terris didn't so they couldn't be mistfallen. But all of people have seeds of Metallic Arts even without lerasium as evidenced by Alendi who was a Seeker and mistfallen around Alendi's time. I am not sure about mistfallen of that time...

To put this question better: would Southeners be suspectible to mist sickness?

Functionally, close enough. The fact that I directly stated that mistsickness is the snapping of unsnapped allomancers, knowledge of the noble practices and the context of the discovery that Elend makes in HoA ought fill the gaps. Or so I imagined, if I was unclear I'm glad you clarified. This said, entirely correct on your behalf.  

Well, Vedlew does call the mist killing people a 'myth of the skaa' or something similar, given the small size of the Terris population I'd think it'd be notable if someone fell and they didn't hear about it. Plus knowing that the Terris population is relatively high in f-genes that haven't degraded (via a-gene interaction) despite a millennia of breeding would suggest a relatively high degree of homogeneity among their population. This would imply that the Terris had sort of 'bred out' allomancy.  Then again if we're talking theory as opposed to practicality....hrm...

I'd say the Southerners would have to be susceptible, as they have some allomancers in their population, although they are apparently rarer. This would imply they likely have closer to 'baseline' A genes, as opposed to the northern gene pool which has had 'more' A genes. It is possible they'd have reduced rates of mistfallen though.

Not sure about whether this is because they also have F genes (which the medallions would suggest they do) or because they have had fewer 'infusions' of noble high concentration A genes. 

As a side note. It's also likely somewhat significant that the Lord Ruler chose to have children despite knowing that in theory both his powers were hereditary. So either he cared (at some stage) more about having children than the potential risk of a Fullborn, or he knew they wouldn't be, or some other third option? 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

As a side note. It's also likely somewhat significant that the Lord Ruler chose to have children despite knowing that in theory both his powers were hereditary. So either he cared (at some stage) more about having children than the potential risk of a Fullborn, or he knew they wouldn't be, or some other third option? 

We don't actually know whether the children were before or after he ascended. I'm willing to bet they were before, meaning they only had the chance for feruchemy. And tragically, if they did, he turned them into mistwraiths.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

To answer why he (might have) had them, as I mentioned earlier, I think there's a WOB that says 'fullborn' cannot be naturally birthed by scadrians. Also, as Spoolofwhool just said, he probably had them before hand, though maybe their F-gene was dormant.

[Eki]

There is a theory that TLR got children for the sole purpose of getting Inquisitor spikes...

I think there's a WoB that it would have been just as possible to make humans with a tiny surplus of Ruin rather than Preservation. The reason Scadrian humans have more Preservation was to facilitate the bargain between the shards, "promising" Ruin he would eventually get to destroy the world, since Preservation was slightly weaker.

[Yata he/him]

7 hours ago, Savanorn said:

To throw in...I think sentient life on Scadrial requires that slight preservation surplus. 

Actually no. Simply sentient life required more Investiture than the other types. But this Investiture may be of every source.

Stupid example: Animal's Soul on Scadrial has 40 Ruin's UI (Unit of Investiture) and 40 Preservation's UI. An Human of Scadrial has 40 Ruin's UI and 50 Preservation's UI. But he actually need only to have 90 UI to be sentient. Therefore a Scadrial Human's soul may be made of 45 RUI and 45 PUI and be still sentient (that it's to me how a Terris's Soul is made)

In my model The Original Feruchemist changed their soul using Lerasium to integrate Ruin's Investiture in their Soul (from Atium) and this change was propagate to the offspring. Rather than change a single Connection (to Preservation) they used the Lerasium in a more skilled way to change the deep nature of their Souls

[Savanorn he/him]

7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We don't actually know whether the children were before or after he ascended. I'm willing to bet they were before, meaning they only had the chance for feruchemy. And tragically, if they did, he turned them into mistwraiths.

We'd assume after if they were part of the idea to 'give up' TFE. 

7 hours ago, ShadowLord_Lith said:

To answer why he (might have) had them, as I mentioned earlier, I think there's a WOB that says 'fullborn' cannot be naturally birthed by scadrians. Also, as Spoolofwhool just said, he probably had them before hand, though maybe their F-gene was dormant.

Happen to remember where?

4 hours ago, Eki said:

There is a theory that TLR got children for the sole purpose of getting Inquisitor spikes...

I think there's a WoB that it would have been just as possible to make humans with a tiny surplus of Ruin rather than Preservation. The reason Scadrian humans have more Preservation was to facilitate the bargain between the shards, "promising" Ruin he would eventually get to destroy the world, since Preservation was slightly weaker.

Yikes. 

And I thought I had daddy issues...

2 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually no. Simply sentient life required more Investiture than the other types. But this Investiture may be of every source.

Stupid example: Animal's Soul on Scadrial has 40 Ruin's UI (Unit of Investiture) and 40 Preservation's UI. An Human of Scadrial has 40 Ruin's UI and 50 Preservation's UI. But he actually need only to have 90 UI to be sentient. Therefore a Scadrial Human's soul may be made of 45 RUI and 45 PUI and be still sentient (that it's to me how a Terris's Soul is made)

In my model The Original Feruchemist changed their soul using Lerasium to integrate Ruin's Investiture in their Soul (from Atium) and this change was propagate to the offspring. Rather than change a single Connection (to Preservation) they used the Lerasium in a more skilled way to change the deep nature of their Souls

I stand corrected. 

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

I'll find the WOB, if I actually saw and I didn't just hallucinate it, and post it here once I do.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Savanorn said:

We'd assume after if they were part of the idea to 'give up' TFE. 

Which idea?

[Oversleep]

Rashek definitely had children after his Ascension. There's a WoB that there are some of his descendants among the population but Brandon said it's not important.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

5 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Rashek definitely had children after his Ascension. There's a WoB that there are some of his descendants among the population but Brandon said it's not important.

Per Kel/Dockson (I believe) Skaa need noble blood in the last 5 generations to be able to have Allomancy. TLR's descendants would be minimum 350 years down from him, and thats if he had kids in the years shortly before his death. Anything earlier would start to go well beyond the inheritable zone.

His descendants have the bragging rights of "I'm related to the original King"  but not much betond that

[Yata he/him]

14 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Rashek definitely had children after his Ascension. There's a WoB that there are some of his descendants among the population but Brandon said it's not important.

They may be among the Kandra or Mistwraiths

[Eki]

Allomancy isn't the issue though; Feruchemy is. Why would TLR spend centuries trying to breed Feruchemy out of the population, just to spread his own f-genes around?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 minutes ago, Eki said:

Allomancy isn't the issue though; Feruchemy is. Why would TLR spend centuries trying to breed Feruchemy out of the population, just to spread his own f-genes around?

Perhaps he knew that A-genes and F-genes mess with each other and figured they would only inherit one?

Slightly more reasonable theory, he could raise them as a Father figure so that they would have qualms abiut betraying him later. Try and talk him out of stuff first, rather than try to outright murder him.

i dont really know honestly. You raise a good point that I haven't considered before.

[Eki]

11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Perhaps he knew that A-genes and F-genes mess with each other and figured they would only inherit one?

We know Twinborn are a thing though. His children would probably not be full Feruchemists, but likely Ferrings, Mistings, or both.

His (surviving) children could still be from before his Ascension. That would still make some people his "descendants", even if it is by a millennium.

I feel like we are missing something though.

(BoM spoilers)

Spoiler

If he really DID use his children for harvesting spikes (mainly for Feruchemy), maybe that is the seed that eventually turned into the Set's breeding programme?

 

[Oversleep]

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Perhaps he knew that A-genes and F-genes mess with each other and figured they would only inherit one?

If he knew that, he wouldn't had been so scared of Allomantic and Feruchemical bloodlines mixing. And he was very scared of that.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

If he knew that, he wouldn't had been so scared of Allomantic and Feruchemical bloodlines mixing. And he was very scared of that.

Fsir enough. I did forget about that

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/16/2016 at 3:15 AM, Yata said:

A simply public Feruchemist would mined Rashek's myth....A single Twinborn would destroy it (also if He wan't a Compounder) because this would explicit states "ei Guys, Feruchemy and Allomancy may be hosted by the same guy".

Feruchemy in itself wouldn't undermine it at all - Feruchemy was known at the beginning of TLR's reign. Public knowledge of Compounding would make it harder for TLR to claim his immortality as divine... but how much does that really matter? TLR is publicly known to be an Allomancer, after all.

Anyway, TLR's power isn't fundamentally based on religious faith in him. The Skaa are forbidden to worship him, and Elend says even the Nobles don't bother with it much. TLR's power is based, fundamentally, on the fact that he's unkillable, controls the Koloss and Inquisitors, and is capable of crushing any rebellion personally if he finds it worth bothering with.