The Scadrian Year- Astronomers needed

[DeadFencer]

Does anyone know anything about astronomy? Basically I'd like to know if the length of the Scadrian year (defined as the length of time for the planet to go around its star) would have changed when Rashek moved the planet closer to the sun. If so, that would have interesting implications for the amount of time it took the Well of Ascension to refill.

[Spoolofwhool]

The length of the year would've definitely changed. For a satellite to be in a stable orbit around a large body, its radius and velocity follow the equation:

velocity = (Gconstant x mcentral / radius)^0.5

This means that the radius and orbiting velocity are not inversely proportional, but rather multiplying the radius by some constant X would result in the velocity decreasing by the square root of X while the circumference increases by X. Since the circumference of the planet's orbit is proportional to the radius, this means changing the radius would result in a change in the revolution period of the planet. In other words, the length of the year changes, decreasing as the orbit decreases and vice-versa. (Decreasing orbit means circumference decreases while velocity increase.)

I'm not sure what implication it would have on the refill time of the Well of Ascension, though all I know about that is that the refill time is 1024 years, though I'm assuming that's post-Ascension years. 

Actually, this would be an interesting question to pose to Brandon since a popular theory is that the Lost Metal is going to be atium since it was said in TFE that the Pits would take 300 years to regrow. However, if that's in TFE years, since Harmony moved the planet back out to its original orbit, that would mean the Pits, if Ruin's power is still there, would've replenished already. Huh. Really interesting. 

Very nice question.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

At the same time the change could be small enough that  for all practice purposes we can shrug it off.

If the earth moved any closer to the sun we would be in trouble. Using earth  for my example here, if i were to move  the earth closer to sun such that the year is now 360 days, instead of 365, the atmosphere  would burn off and the overall daily temps would threaten life.

Now  someone  else moves the earth back to where it belongs. 72 years at the new distance would be as many days as 73 years at the closer distance. In this example  300 years under the the new distance will be the same as 304.1666 at the old distance .  

 

Now back on scadrial the Well refilled every 1024 years even before the Lord Ruler's ascension  there is no evidence that this changed after his ascension. So my guess is that the Pits will be restored after about 300 years regardless of the number of days in the calendar. This is based on the personal belief  that the time to refill is more of symbol then a precise  passage of time, and this symbol is more important  to the shards then the exact minutes, hours, and days.

I am sorry if I lost  anybody i am posting on my new tablet and it doesn't  have the fuctionallity I would like.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

7 hours ago, Tsidqiyah said:

At the same time the change could be small enough that  for all practice purposes we can shrug it off.

[ . . Snip . . ]

I am sorry if I lost  anybody i am posting on my new tablet and it doesn't  have the fuctionallity I would like.

For the math bit, TLR's Empire lasted "1000 years" but the Well takes 1024. Perhaps that difference is the offset math? Edit: That can't be right actually, it would imply longer years... Hmm

On the number of years being unchanged, it fits with how Cognitive perception shapes things.  The Well refills after 1024 of whatever a "year" is considered by the people. Hypothetical: Sazed decides to shorten the length of the year in his Books for after the Catacendre, and it sticks. The Well should refill at 1024 AC anyway, even with the reduced timescale.

Edited October 17, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

I asked a related question on Reddit and got an answer:

Quote

1. I mentioned in another post that I'll wait a bit to give you exact numbers, because I want to make sure Peter has run all the right calculations. But yes, changing the orbit had an effect on things--though official calendars didn't need to change, as they'd been used since before the original shift happened anyway. When we talk about 'Years' in the Final Empire, it's original (pre LR) orbit anyway. I knew I was going to go back to them later in the series, and when characters were actually aware of things like the calendar, it would be close to earth standard.

2. Though, since you mention it, all numbers mentioned in their respective series are in-world numbers. This makes things tricky, as Rosharan years (with the five hundred days) are blatant enough to start the average reader wondering about these things.

3. Mostly, Roshar is the big one (not in actual deviation--I think a Roshar year is only 1.1 Earth years--but in how the scope and terminology of the novel will make people start to notice and ask questions.) Other planets have deviations from Earth, but it's not as noticeable. We'll give specific numbers eventually. I promise.

Source

You can infer from this answer that the length of a "year", as people on the planet think of it, never changed from pre-TLR length. You can also infer the the orbit time around the sun did change. However, I agree with @The One Who Connects that the time to refill the Well is based on what the local people consider a year, not the orbit time. Having a numerical symbol isn't much use if it's in a different unit than the one everyone uses (hence the use of percentages as a symbol for the mist-sickness, which are unit-less).

[Argent he/him]

The following (snipped of a) Reddit conversation might be interest to you (unless you've been a participant in it, then this is going to be really embarrassing...):

Quote

Q: Are lightyears or AU a more appropriate method of measuirng [sic] distance between shardworlds?

A: Because an AU is (correct me if I'm wrong) based on an Earth scale, I'd use light years.

Q: Light years are also based on an Earth scale (year = the time it takes the Earth to go round the sun).
Edit: I'd say the most appropriate measurement is the one that gives you the most manageable numbers. We measure differences between stars in light years because doing it in anything else results in a dizzying number of zeros. We measure the distances between planets and their suns in kilometers or AU, because light years are too big.
So, if the different shardworlds are in orbit around different suns, lightyears. If they are in orbit around the same sun, AU or kilometers. And don't you try inventing a new sciencey sounding word to avoid using lightyear ("It's 20 shardepochs away!"). You aren't fooling anyone by doing that.
I should also point out that using parsec is just as Earth-centric as either of the other two measurements (and, as an extra bonus, it also relies on the fact that we divide circles into 360 degrees and those degrees are further divided by 60 and 60 again. Despite the cosmic sounding name, it's very much a product of our society).

A: Suppose you're right, but we have planets with an earth similar year (like Scadrial) in the cosmere, and likely also ones with a similar distance to the center of their sun, so I guess it's sixes of one, half dozen of another.

Q: We can't really talk about the distances without specifying some Earth-based unit; it's all we know. We could figure out a Rosharan light-year if we wanted (since we know the length of a year on Roshar and presumably the speed of light is the same as in our universe) and use that as our measurement, but that seems like needless work.
Also thanks for confirming that Scadrial has a year of similar length to Earth! That's something I've been wondering about for a while. Just to clarify:
When you say Scadrial has an earth similar year, are you referring to the time it takes the planet to go around the sun? Or the year as people on the planet would measure it (e.g. Vin is fifteen years old when her brother leaves her)? Are these the same thing?
While I'm here, a selection of related questions for you if you have the time:

1. Did the length of a year (as measured by the people on the planet) change when Scadrial was moved by The Lord Ruler/Harmony?
2. I've assumed that lengths of time given in the books use that world's time lengths. For example, the Reod happens ten Selish years before Elantris (which may not correspond exactly to Scadrian years or Earth years), or that the 4500 years between the prelude and the prologue of Way of Kings is in Rosharan years. Is this an accurate assumption?
3. I've assumed in the past that all the major shardworld planets we've seen have roughly earth similar years. Can you confirm/deny this for any of them specifically? I'm especially interested in Sel and Nalthis. (Specific numbers would be ideal, but even a yes/no for any of the planets would be super super awesome!)

I have plenty more but I'll leave it at that for now. I don't want to take up too much of your time.

A:

1. I mentioned in another post that I'll wait a bit to give you exact numbers, because I want to make sure Peter has run all the right calculations. But yes, changing the orbit had an effect on things--though official calendars didn't need to change, as they'd been used since before the original shift happened anyway. When we talk about 'Years' in the Final Empire, it's original (pre LR) orbit anyway. I knew I was going to go back to them later in the series, and when characters were actually aware of things like the calendar, it would be close to earth standard.
2. Though, since you mention it, all numbers mentioned in their respective series are in-world numbers. This makes things tricky, as Rosharan years (with the five hundred days) are blatant enough to start the average reader wondering about these things.
3. Mostly, Roshar is the big one (not in actual deviation--I think a Roshar year is only 1.1 Earth years--but in how the scope and terminology of the novel will make people start to notice and ask questions.) Other planets have deviations from Earth, but it's not as noticeable. We'll give specific numbers eventually. I promise.

It doesn't give much in the way of answers, but it clear some things about how Brandon approaches all this.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, Tsidqiyah said:

Now back on scadrial the Well refilled every 1024 years even before the Lord Ruler's ascension  there is no evidence that this changed after his ascension. So my guess is that the Pits will be restored after about 300 years regardless of the number of days in the calendar. This is based on the personal belief  that the time to refill is more of symbol then a precise  passage of time, and this symbol is more important  to the shards then the exact minutes, hours, and days.

Where has it been said that someone else used the Well of Ascension's power previously?

[Yata he/him]

Little OT, thanks @Argent for the Reddit's link...I completelly missed it. There are interesting informations there 

@Spoolofwhool If I don't remember wrong at every Well's cycle an hero have to going there to use the Power and avoid Ruin's freedom...The Hero of Ages is just the final one of a long series of Terris' Heroes

Edited October 17, 2016 by Yata

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

Little OT, thanks @Argent for the Reddit's link...I completelly missed it. There are interesting informations there 

@Spoolofwhool If I don't remember wrong at every Well's cycle an hero have to going there to use the Power and avoid Ruin's freedom...The Hero of Ages is just the final one of a long series of Terris' Heroes

I have been looking for the specific WOB on the matter and of course can't find it, but last week i came across  a question about  if Rashek's ascension was the first or if the Ruin/Preservation conflict was older then that. The answer was he was not the first, I don't remember anything else, and thanks to my work's computer policy (history is deleted weekly) i can't even go back. when i find it i'll edit.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Little OT, thanks @Argent for the Reddit's link...I completelly missed it. There are interesting informations there 

@Spoolofwhool If I don't remember wrong at every Well's cycle an hero have to going there to use the Power and avoid Ruin's freedom...The Hero of Ages is just the final one of a long series of Terris' Heroes

Okay, fair enough. I'm just curious why a previous ascended didn't simply change themselves to become immortal so that they could continue to be the Hero in order to ensure that there would be one. I'm guessing Rashek's situation only occurred because Ruin had applied enough influence to corrupt the prophecies. 

[Yata he/him]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Okay, fair enough. I'm just curious why a previous ascended didn't simply change themselves to become immortal so that they could continue to be the Hero in order to ensure that there would be one. I'm guessing Rashek's situation only occurred because Ruin had applied enough influence to corrupt the prophecies. 

Probably every Hero have his own "mission" and probably They have no the knowledge to become Immortal and the same is true for Rashek. I am pretty sure that Rashek would become a true immortal if he will have another try with the Well

[DeadFencer]

On 10/17/2016 at 9:05 AM, The One Who Connects said:

On the number of years being unchanged, it fits with how Cognitive perception shapes things.  The Well refills after 1024 of whatever a "year" is considered by the people. 

That seems wrong to me. The time to refill the well shouldn't change just because people think a year is shorter. My assumption is that Rashek kept the old length of the year during the final empire.

[Spoolofwhool]

48 minutes ago, SafestPear said:

That seems wrong to me. The time to refill the well shouldn't change just because people think a year is shorter. My assumption is that Rashek kept the old length of the year during the final empire.

It's possible. However, with the minor deviation in the length of the year, it would mean that over the millennium the seasons would fall out of alignment with the calendar.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

42 minutes ago, SafestPear said:

That seems wrong to me. The time to refill the well shouldn't change just because people think a year is shorter. My assumption is that Rashek kept the old length of the year during the final empire.

Thats fair enough all things considered, because its easier than him recalculating the new year length. 

As for what people "think" a year is, a lot of the time that wouldn't be truly changeable because its based on a cosmic pattern. Thats the line of thinking that started thisnthread to begin eith.

Since Investiture resides in the Spiritual Realm, which cares a lot less abput time, I really wonder if the Well was based on local Cognitive years or if Leras picked a predetermined njmber of Yolenese years.. Actually, ifnore that. Thats a conversation for another time

3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It's possible. However, with the minor deviation in the length of the year, it would mean that over the millennium the seasons would fall out of alignment with the calendar.

I can think of several other things that would screw with the seasons, like the ashmounts or TLR moving the Magnetic North Pole, but thats not the point. I noticed something in the Reddit conversaion that Argent posted:

Quote

I mentioned in another post that I'll wait a bit to give you exact numbers, because I want to make sure Peter has run all the right calculations. But yes, changing the orbit had an effect on things--though official calendars didn't need to change, as they'd been used since before the original shift happened anyway. When we talk about 'Years' in the Final Empire, it's original (pre LR) orbit anyway.

Emphasis added. It sounds like TLR didn't bother to make his own calendar, but that's my interpretation. What do y'all think?

[Shardbearer he/him]

That Reddit WOB is definitely saying Rashek kept the old calendar from before he changed the orbit. I can't think of any other way to interpret that phrase.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Emphasis added. It sounds like TLR didn't bother to make his own calendar, but that's my interpretation. What do y'all think?

Yeah, you're right. Definitely kept the old year. Probably because it would be too much of a bother, and the change wasn't that significant. 

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Since Investiture resides in the Spiritual Realm, which cares a lot less abput time, I really wonder if the Well was based on local Cognitive years or if Leras picked a predetermined njmber of Yolenese years.. Actually, ifnore that. Thats a conversation for another time

I don't think the number of was necessarily picked by Leras but it shows up, like the 16 days atium mistings were ill, as a function of Preservation's power

1024 = 16*16*4

and while I don't know why 16 is so significant to Preservation it is a reoccurring theme, and I bet the number (1024) is more important then has been revealed.

[Eki]

1 hour ago, Tsidqiyah said:

I don't think the number of was necessarily picked by Leras but it shows up, like the 16 days atium mistings were ill, as a function of Preservation's power

1024 = 16*16*4

and while I don't know why 16 is so significant to Preservation it is a reoccurring theme, and I bet the number (1024) is more important then has been revealed.

16 isn't just an important number to Preservation (16 metals, etc), but also to the whole Cosmere, with the 16 shards.

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/17/2016 at 0:13 AM, Tsidqiyah said:

At the same time the change could be small enough that  for all practice purposes we can shrug it off.

If the earth moved any closer to the sun we would be in trouble. Using earth  for my example here, if i were to move  the earth closer to sun such that the year is now 360 days, instead of 365, the atmosphere  would burn off and the overall daily temps would threaten life.

Actually, the tolerances aren't that narrow. The Earth is near the inner edge of the habitable zone, but not that close. 0.95 AU is a number you often see for the inner edge, but that would mean a 338-day year.

Anyway, Scadrial is way closer to the sun than that. When Vin removes the ash, trees burst into flame very quickly. That wouldn't happen at Venus' distance from the sun (where solar intensity is only twice Earth's). The solar intensity needed to ignite living, moist trees would be really high.

In fact, the ash would have to cover the whole planet - even the uninhabitable 'burnlands' must be shielded from most of it, just not enough to make them human-habitable. If most of the planet was exposed to that kind of solar intensity, there'd be a huge temperature gradient, which would power lethal, burning winds that would make the Final Empire unlivable.

And it's probably not habitable long-term, even with that. Outside the FE, evaporation will be really high, and a water-vapor greenhouse effect would probably eventually turn the planet into a Venus-like world.

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Actually, the tolerances aren't that narrow. The Earth is near the inner edge of the habitable zone, but not that close. 0.95 AU is a number you often see for the inner edge, but that would mean a 338-day year.

Thank you for the correction.

That would then correlate to about 20 more days once moved back or an extra 16-17 years still not enough to really worry about calendar shifting. 

 

[cometaryorbit]

Sure, but Scadrial was much closer to the sun than the inner edge of the habitable zone. Without the ashmounts, it wouldn't have been survivable at all.

Venus' year is 225 days, and the solar intensity at Venus' orbit isn't nearly enough to ignite live trees.

[Landis963 he/him]

On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 8:12 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Sure, but Scadrial was much closer to the sun than the inner edge of the habitable zone. Without the ashmounts, it wouldn't have been survivable at all.

Venus' year is 225 days, and the solar intensity at Venus' orbit isn't nearly enough to ignite live trees.

Is there some place between the habitable zone and the sun where trees burst into flame without cloud cover but where humans would feasibly not?  Or do we just chalk this one up to Vin's Shardic bullet time?

 

EDIT: Another thing to consider: Scadrian World-of-Ash trees might have been designed so that they burst into flame far easier than humans do in the same ambient temperature, for several reasons including "They'll be easier to use as fuel" and "Ruin Alert!"

Edited October 22, 2016 by Landis963

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Is there some place between the habitable zone and the sun where trees burst into flame without cloud cover but where humans would feasibly not?  Or do we just chalk this one up to Vin's Shardic bullet time?

Yeah, when Vin cleared out the ash, she rotated the planet quickly enough that it didn't do much damage - it caused sunburns in moments, but didn't last long enough to kill.

"[Elend] remembered well a short time ago when the sun had suddenly blazed with an amazing intensity. Those few moments had burned him so that his face still hurt.

Then, the sun had ... dropped. It had fallen below the horizon in less than a second" - HOA Ch 77

The flaming trees come after Vin-Preservation sacrifices herself to kill Ruin. Then, the sun rises and that sustained heat is definitely enough to kill humans, since Sazed is surviving only by touching the powers of Preservation and Ruin. But by then, the people are underground in the storage caverns.

"Koloss cried out in pain from the burning. The heat was terrible, and around Sazed, trees began to pop and burst into flames. His touch on the twin powers kept him alive" - HOA Ch 82

8 hours ago, Landis963 said:

EDIT: Another thing to consider: Scadrian World-of-Ash trees might have been designed so that they burst into flame far easier than humans do in the same ambient temperature, for several reasons including "They'll be easier to use as fuel" and "Ruin Alert!"

It's possible, but there's a WOB talking about how only the koloss in the storage caverns survived, so if the intensity of the sun was enough to kill koloss in a short time period, burning trees doesn't seem out of scope. Either would require a solar intensity far more extreme than you'd get at Venus' distance from the sun.  That's only twice Earth's (Venus is about 70% Earth's distance from the Sun, so by the inverse square law, the solar intensity is 1 / 0.7^2, very close to 2, times that at Earth).

And it's not really about the ambient temperature in this situation, but the radiative heating from the sun. The intense sunlight was brief, so while objects that absorbed sunlight got extremely hot, the (clear) air didn't have anywhere near enough time to come into equilibrium with the ground, trees, etc. (Also, if the air temperature had risen to those levels, the people in the storage caverns wouldn't have survived.)