[Edgedancer Spoilers] Afterimages

[PallonianFire he/him]

So...what's up with Szeth and the afterimages that trail him? I assume it's not directly caused by Nightblood, since I don't recall Vasher ever having something like that in Warbreaker. Doesn't seem to be Skybreaker-connected, either. I can't even think of a decent theory for why it would be happening. Anyone have ideas?

[Droughtbringer]

1 minute ago, PallonianFire said:

So...what's up with Szeth and the afterimages that trail him? I assume it's not directly caused by Nightblood, since I don't recall Vasher ever having something like that in Warbreaker. Doesn't seem to be Skybreaker-connected, either. I can't even think of a decent theory for why it would be happening. Anyone have ideas?

My only idea is that it has do do with him dying

[Pagerunner he/him]

I suspect that only Lift sees it, because she sees somewhat into the Cognitive Realm. As to what caused the phenomenon in the first place, his death does seem likely, as if his Cognitive and Physical selves weren't put back together quite right, so his Cognitive self is a little out-of-sync.

EDIT: [All right, @Pagerunner, don't be smug.] This appears to be confirmed by WoB here. [Well done. Next time, don't talk to yourself in your own post, though.]

Edited December 2, 2016 by Pagerunner

[PallonianFire he/him]

That's a cool idea. I'm on board.

[Argent he/him]

I too find it likely that only Lift sees those. I am not quite ready to accept the explanation that "his Cognitive self is a little out-of-sync" - the phrase doesn't quite make sense to me. I think I can accept that the afterimages have something to do with Shadesmar, but what - I don't know.

This particular peculiarity has had me thoroughly stumped (heh).

[dendrophobe he/him]

It could be a combination of the two. Only Lift can see it, but it is in fact caused by Nightblood.  We've never seen what effect Nightblood has in the Cognitive Realm, so this could fit.

[Pagerunner he/him]

13 minutes ago, Argent said:

I too find it likely that only Lift sees those. I am not quite ready to accept the explanation that "his Cognitive self is a little out-of-sync" - the phrase doesn't quite make sense to me. I think I can accept that the afterimages have something to do with Shadesmar, but what - I don't know.

This particular peculiarity has had me thoroughly stumped (heh).

Yeah, this was a spur-of-the-moment response. I had no idea when I was reading it, either.

The point I'm going for is that Lift is essentially seeing Szeth's Cognitive Shadow. When Szeth died, it separated from his body. Nale repaired the connection (probably not capital-C Connection) between them, but there's a spiritual scar of sorts that results in a temporal disconnect. When we next see Szeth, I'll be watching if his skills in battle have suddenly become muddled, as if his mind can't keep up with his hands.

[Argent he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Yeah, this was a spur-of-the-moment response. I had no idea when I was reading it, either.

The point I'm going for is that Lift is essentially seeing Szeth's Cognitive Shadow. When Szeth died, it separated from his body. Nale repaired the connection (probably not capital-C Connection) between them, but there's a spiritual scar of sorts that results in a temporal disconnect. When we next see Szeth, I'll be watching if his skills in battle have suddenly become muddled, as if his mind can't keep up with his hands.

Yeah, I figured you might be getting at something like this, but I still don't like it. Shadesmar is not just another layer of the Physical Realm which you can peek at if you know how. It's more like a different place, with its location mapped to physical locations. For your idea to work you would need to have Szeth's Cognitive aspect move in exactly the same way Szeth's body does, just a little delayed - which then requires the Cognitive Realm to be pretty much identical to the Physical, otherwise the landscape would cause Szeth's Cognitive aspect to move around. 

No, I think the answer is different.

[Pagerunner he/him]

21 minutes ago, Argent said:

Yeah, I figured you might be getting at something like this, but I still don't like it. Shadesmar is not just another layer of the Physical Realm which you can peek at if you know how. It's more like a different place, with its location mapped to physical locations. For your idea to work you would need to have Szeth's Cognitive aspect move in exactly the same way Szeth's body does, just a little delayed - which then requires the Cognitive Realm to be pretty much identical to the Physical, otherwise the landscape would cause Szeth's Cognitive aspect to move around. 

No, I think the answer is different.

Wyndle's vines are in the Cognitive Realm, yet they grow on Physical surfaces to let Lift climb them. Shallan drew the Cryptics in existing scenes in the Physical Realm, crowded around her bed and what not.

It seems Secret History's view of Scadrial's subastral is consistent with this approach, being able to literally reflect the physical world:

Quote

The pulsing became his guide, that wave that washed periodically through the shadowy world. He sought its source. He barreled through buildings, crossed thoroughfares, ignoring both metal and the souls of men until he reached the grey mist silhouette of Kredik Shaw, the Hill of a Thousand Spires.

There, men are viewed as a shadowy silhouette (Physical) with a light shining out of them (Cognitive? Since it's a form of Investiture?)

Quote

Around him, other souls made the transition. Their bodies stopped glowing, then their souls lurched into this land of mists: stumbling, falling, as if ejected from their bodies. Once they arrived, Kelsier saw them in color.

The main geography of Roshar's subastral is unchanged, just inverted, as seen in the Shadesmar map. (Would pneumography be a good word? A better Greek word would probably lead to something like nougraphy, but that looks pretty stupid.)

[Argent he/him]

Fair enough, this is compelling evidence. I still don't like your theory, it doesn't feel right to me, but I don't have a good reason (beyond a gut feeling), so I'll head back to the Batcave and think about this some more.

[Zea mays]

2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

...

The point I'm going for is that Lift is essentially seeing Szeth's Cognitive Shadow. When Szeth died, it separated from his body. Nale repaired the connection (probably not capital-C Connection) between them, but there's a spiritual scar of sorts that results in a temporal disconnect. When we next see Szeth, I'll be watching if his skills in battle have suddenly become muddled, as if his mind can't keep up with his hands.

I don't know. Gawks died, and Lift revived him. She does not recall seeing him with such an after-image.

 

Somewhere in all the WoR discussion, mention was made of a theory that Odium was "riding" with Szeth the night he came to assassinate Dalinar during the highstorm, and Syl and Pattern went berserk. Perhaps what Lift is seeing is Odium's influence?

[natc]

Well, Nightblood does seem suspect. It slightly makes sense a shardblade constructed using magic associated with color (truthfully even the cognitive realm there seems to just look like a storm of color) would cause weird image artifacts in the cognitive. Especially when he's apparently not functioning properly as a blade.

[skaa he/him]

1 hour ago, natc said:

...(truthfully even the cognitive realm there seems to just look like a storm of color)...

Wait, are you describing Nalthian Shadesmar? Where did you get that description?

Edit:

Spoiler

Oh, was that from what Stennimar saw before he Returned as Lightsong?

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by skaa

[Pagerunner he/him]

1 hour ago, natc said:

Well, Nightblood does seem suspect. It slightly makes sense a shardblade constructed using magic associated with color (truthfully even the cognitive realm there seems to just look like a storm of color) would cause weird image artifacts in the cognitive. Especially when he's apparently not functioning properly as a blade.

 

3 minutes ago, skaa said:

Wait, are you describing Nalthian Shadesmar? Where did you get that description?

I'll second that question. Latest I've seen is a "big, fat RAFO."

[Steelheart]

3 hours ago, skaa said:

Wait, are you describing Nalthian Shadesmar? Where did you get that description?

Edit:

  Hide contents

Oh, was that from what Stennimar saw before he Returned as Lightsong?

 

 

Pretty sure theres a WoB that he was seeing the Spiritual Realm...

[Steelheart]

11 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

So...what's up with Szeth and the afterimages that trail him? I assume it's not directly caused by Nightblood, since I don't recall Vasher ever having something like that in Warbreaker. Doesn't seem to be Skybreaker-connected, either. I can't even think of a decent theory for why it would be happening. Anyone have ideas?

 

I think it is due to 2 things: 1) We are repeatedly reminded that Lift is more in the Cognitive Realm than most people are and 2) Since Szeth held an Honorblade for so long, he became a Sliver (albeit a small one compared to others)

Spoiler

I.e. The Lord Ruler, Vin, Kelsier

Basically, Lift, and ONLY Lift can see his Cognitive self.....Though come to think of it, why does it leave an afterimage instead of just making him glow?

Not really sure, but it looks a lot like a reverse Atium shadow.... 

[Torrieltar]

I'm one of the ones who thinks Nightblood is causing it. Szeth's afterimage is described similarly to but distinct from the normal glow of Stormlight. This is very reminiscent the effect that Nightblood has on Nalthis, similar to but distinct from a normal BioChromatic aura.

Quote

“Let me see that,” the lead guard said, taking the sword. He grunted, obviously surprised by its weight. He turned it about, noting the clasp that tied sheath to hilt, keeping the blade from being drawn. He undid the clasp.

The colors in the room deepened. They didn’t grow brighter—not the way the guard’s vest had when he approached Vasher. Instead, they grew stronger. Darker. Reds became maroon. Yellows hardened to gold. Blues approached navy.

It would make sense that this aura would manifest differently on Roshar, a different Shardworld. I'm still undecided on whether or not Lift is the only one who can see it, though.

[Argent he/him]

1 hour ago, Steelheart said:

Since Szeth held an Honorblade for so long, he became a Sliver (albeit a small one compared to others)

I am pretty sure it doesn't work like that. For one to become a Sliver, one must hold (most of) the power of a Shard, and then lose it. Wielding an Honorblade is not the same as being Invested with a Shard - the power still comes form the Blade, not from the wielder.

[Steelheart]

6 hours ago, Argent said:

I am pretty sure it doesn't work like that. For one to become a Sliver, one must hold (most of) the power of a Shard, and then lose it. Wielding an Honorblade is not the same as being Invested with a Shard - the power still comes form the Blade, not from the wielder.

 

 

Fair point. Maybe he's not a Sliver, but I still think his shadow came from him wielding an Honorblade for so long. (And I know Nale has been using an  Honorblade for way longer, but his was designed for him. Szeths was meant for someone else)

[shadowwisp]

Wait hold on a second, where are we getting the idea that Lift can see partially into the Cognitive Realm? 

Yes, Lift is partially in the Cognitive Realm which is why she can physically touch Wyndle but, correct me if I am wrong, we have no evidence that Lift can see into the Cognitive Realm. 

All the Spren that Lift describe seeing are no different from any of the other characters' description of them. Wyndle might be an exception but we don't have another cultivation spren to compare. And that could also be due their unique bond. 

Also Lift would have noticed something being up with the Dysian Aimian on first glance if she could see into the Cognitive realm. Almost certainly, Dysian Aimians have a greater Cognitive Presence than normal humans. 
 

 Why do we think Lift is the only one who can see it? If that is the case, we can't rule out that it could be due to Edgedancer's "special ability". 

 

But I highly suspect that it has something to due with Nightblood and not with Szeth's resurrection or Lift's ability.  

Quote

Rain beat around them, and crimson lightning blasted down behind Darkness, leaving stark afterimages in Lift’s eyes.

This was in the second to last chapter. Maybe it was intentional or maybe it wasn't but it could be hint. A great source of light behind Nale created afterimages. Or a great source of investiture (Nightblood) behind Szeth is creating afterimages. Nightblood is the most heavily invested object in the Cosmere (that we know of).

Why did we not see this in Warbreaker? That was a couple hundred years ago, Nightblood could have gotten stronger since then say like absorbing massive amount of readily available Stormlight. Which would almost certainly have some sort of novel effect.

Edited November 24, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Stark he/him]

@shadowwisp I think I need to disagree with you on two counts.  First is your afterimages quote.  I think that is a different kind of after image.  The ones you quote are from lightning.  Any Retinal exposure to intense light in a dark space (like a storm) will leave an afterimage "burned" onto your retina, as they take a few seconds for the massive excitation of going from a low light to a high light environment wears off.  That's as far as I'm going to go into the activation of Rods and cones, but I'm pretty sure the quote you've used described refers to the same afterimages we get from staring at the highbeams of a car at night, or that one annoying relative who never turns the flash off on their camera (you all know that one relative, right?).  Where as Szeth is leaving an afterimage of himself every time he moves, regardless of ambient light levels or their change.  Two completely different phenomena.

Szeth is like when your computer is bugging and it leaves afterimages of your cursor as you move it, or a window that is open.  Something is lagging trying to keep his image in place with his physical location.  The battle with darkness is optics interacting with the light receptors in her eyes.

 

At least the way I read it.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The second point is a bit more nit-picky.  

2 hours ago, shadowwisp said:

Almost certainly, Dysian Aimians have a greater Cognitive Presence than normal humans. 

The "normal humans" part.  I don't think we can justify classifying Aimians (whether Dysian or Siah) as abnormal humans.  I think they are most definitely non-humans.  I don't think they ever were humans (like Kandra), but are beings that learned to imitate humans, however imperfectly, in order to survive and study humans.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Stark
Changed "things" to "beings" in last sentence. Feels more polite.

[shadowwisp]

@Stark I should have clarified. I didn't mean that the two types of afterimages are the same, I meant it more as an analogy. As in the sense that both Szeth and Nale are not the source of the afterimage but rather the afterimage comes from a background source that is "interfering" (lightning and Nightblood). 

 

Great point on the second part, I agree non-human is a better term for the Aimians than abnormal humans.

I can't wait to see how a hive-mind is represented in the Cognitive Realm. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Stark he/him]

@shadowwisp Ah, I misunderstood your comparison.  I am not convinced that Nightblood is the cause of the after-images.  True, we have not witnessed colour deepening around him as part of his aura, so it is possible that instead of a colour aura he is making a Stormlight after-image-aura for his bearer.

 

But if that were the case, I think we would have seen Nale have after-images in WoR as he handed Nightblood to Szeth.  (Obvious counter-argument to my point, Nale was not bonded to Nightblood, so no after-image, but I think that is weak.  He did not need to be bonded to anyone on Nalthis to have an aura)  Seeing as Nale had no afterimages, I'd be more willing to believe that whatever healed Szeth from his near-death experience is what caused him to have after-images.  '

Also of note, we have not seen anyone else other than Lift react to the after images, so it may be something only she can see.  (counter: We only saw Szeth interact with Lift and Skybreakers who could have gotten used to his after-images by now)

Finally, I think it is Nightblood that noticed Lift hiding in the shadows, using his life sense and telepathy, not Szeth...

[DSC01 he/him]

Hmm... So, if the afterimages are not due to Nightblood (which I do think they are, myself), then they most likely would be something about Szeth's soul being slightly out of sync with the Physical Realm. I would think that this would either be because of the way that Nalan healed him being slightly imperfect or that something is pulling at soul--which could be any number of things, from Odium's influence to something peculiar about using an Honorblade for an extended period of time.

[Brgst13]

How about this: the afterimage is not Cognitive, but Spiritual.  Szeth's spiritual component is actually a few seconds older than his Physical component due to the time he spent "dead".  The afterimage is a result of the Spiritual realm trying to re-sync Szeth with the Physical realm.