What is Marsh Doing? (Possible Spoilers for Era 2)

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

I can't remember if this question has been answered before, and I didn't find anything that mentioned this, so I'm going to ask: what has Marsh been doing all this time? There have been several instances during the Era 2 books when I've thought to myself: "If only Wax and Wayne had a mistborn to help them out. Too bad they're all gone...oh wait." Wax and Wayne have been facing some fairly important threats, the biggest ones being bleeder and the set trying to retrieve the bands. I understand that one reason is "Well then it wouldn't be much of a story, would it?", but there must be an in-world reason.

 So where has Marsh been all this time and what is he doing now? Will he show up again before Era 2 is over?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I know he went South for a bit. I'm not certain exactly when though.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Wax and Wayne have been facing some fairly important threats, the biggest ones being bleeder and the set trying to retrieve the bands. I understand that one reason is "Well then it wouldn't be much of a story, would it?", but there must be an in-world reason.

 So where has Marsh been all this time and what is he doing now? Will he show up again before Era 2 is over?

Two things to remember: one, there is a WoB around that Marsh is somewhere in the Southern Continent; and two, while Marsh (with all those spikes in him) would potentially be subject to the direct control of Harmony, evidently he is still able to operate independently, as he says himself at the end of The Alloy of Law while giving Spook's notes on hemalurgy to Marasi: "Harmony has particular views about how things must be done. I do not always agree with him. Oddly, his particular beliefs require that he allow that."

What I want to know is how and where Marsh got his second eye-spike back. Vin pulled one out just before she Ascended, yet when Marasi sees him, he has two of them. It must have something to do with whatever Spook did prior to writing that book, and evidently something to do with (Bands of Mourning / Mistborn: Secret History spoilering still in order?) -

Spoiler

engineering a one-spikeyed-Kelsier's revival as well.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by robardin
cleaned up my quote and added link to WoB

[Exalted]

On 12/28/2016 at 10:49 AM, robardin said:

What I want to know is how and where Marsh got his second eye-spike back. Vin pulled one out just before she Ascended, yet when Marasi sees him, he has two of them. It must have something to do with whatever Spook did prior to writing that book, and evidently something to do with (Bands of Mourning / Mistborn: Secret History spoilering still in order?) -

  Reveal hidden contents

engineering a one-spikeyed-Kelsier's revival as well.

 

...what if 

Spoiler

The body Marsh is using belongs to a different Inquisitor, and Kelsier is using Marsh's body with one eye-spike?

Actually, the more I think about it, the more stupid that sounds (like, why would Marsh give up a perfectly good body with extra Hemalurgic powers just so that the brother he envies could come back to life?), but I'll just put that out there.

 

[BlackYeti he/him]

On 12/28/2016 at 6:49 PM, robardin said:

What I want to know is how and where Marsh got his second eye-spike back. Vin pulled one out just before she Ascended, yet when Marasi sees him, he has two of them.

I don't think he did get it back given this WoB:

Quote

QUESTION

Which eye does the Sovereign have spiked? And what does the spike give?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The opposite eye that Marsh has spiked. And nothing special. More to come in Secret History 2 and 3.

Brandon definitely makes it sound like it's still missing. I guess he's just got a fake spike there (like what Wayne used when disguising himself as Marsh) to hide the massive hole through his head.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

On December 28, 2016 at 1:49 PM, robardin said:

What I want to know is how and where Marsh got his second eye-spike back. Vin pulled one out just before she Ascended, yet when Marasi sees him, he has two of them. It must have something to do with whatever Spook did prior to writing that book, and evidently something to do with (Bands of Mourning / Mistborn: Secret History spoilering still in order?) -

I assumed that Marsh just picked up the spikes Vin removed. Was there any mention during his fight with Elend of him missing a spike?

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I assumed that Marsh just picked up the spikes Vin removed. Was there any mention during his fight with Elend of him missing a spike?

Yes.

Quote

An attack from the Inquisitor forced Elend to flare pewter to get away. He cut down three koloss with ease, his atium still helping him, but Marsh’s immunity was a serious challenge. The Inquisitor crawled over the fallen bodies of koloss, scrambling toward Elend, his single spikehead reflecting the too-bright light of the sun overhead.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

15 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I assumed that Marsh just picked up the spikes Vin removed. Was there any mention during his fight with Elend of him missing a spike?

11 hours ago, robardin said:

Yes.

This makes me wonder. We know he stole his Spike granting F-Atium from the dead inquisitors after Vin ascended, so why didn't he grab an eyespike too?

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

This makes me wonder. We know he stole his Spike granting F-Atium from the dead inquisitors after Vin ascended, so why didn't he grab an eyespike too?

He probably did later. I checked Alloy of Law:

Spoiler

Ironeyes responded with a tight-lipped smile, watching her with the heads of those silvery spikes.

There is another description earlier that mentions two eye-spikes. He probably didn't pick it up when he went to fight Elend because Ruin didn't care at the time.

[+robardin he/him]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

We know he stole his Spike granting F-Atium from the dead inquisitors after Vin ascended, so why didn't he grab an eyespike too?

We do? How? I've always also wondered why Ruin would bother giving Inquisitors F-atium, unless they had captured so many Feruchemists that he could give all the Inquisitors the combat useful ones like gold, pewter, tin, steel, and iron (4 Feruchemists right there per Inquisitor).

Only then would it make sense to look at the extra unspiked Feruchemists and say what the hell, let's make Marsh a Collector's Edition Action Figure and give him one of everything.

That's kind of what I pictured since that way Marsh could survive his intended destruction of Scadrial, and then be a very useful agent in continuing to Ruin things elsewhere afterward.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On December 30, 2016 at 5:23 PM, robardin said:

We do? How? I've always also wondered why Ruin would bother giving Inquisitors F-atium, unless they had captured so many Feruchemists that he could give all the Inquisitors the combat useful ones like gold, pewter, tin, steel, and iron (4 Feruchemists right there per Inquisitor).

Only then would it make sense to look at the extra unspiked Feruchemists and say what the hell, let's make Marsh a Collector's Edition Action Figure and give him one of everything.

That's kind of what I pictured since that way Marsh could survive his intended destruction of Scadrial, and then be a very useful agent in continuing to Ruin things elsewhere afterward.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=708#8

[+robardin he/him]

On 12/31/2016 at 8:49 PM, The One Who Connects said:

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=708#8

So...  At least one of the non-Marsh Inquisitors had an F-atium spike at the battle at Kredik Shaw, and Marsh later harvested it? Does that account for him replacing the eye-spike that Vin pulled out of him, too?

But he fought with Elend outside the Pits of Hathsin while having only the one eye-spike, so that would mean he was able to get to those Inquisitor spikes after Harmony rearranged the world. Hmm.

Bands of Mourning spoilers still in effect?

Spoiler

This might explain how an apparently super-spiked Kelsier was the "Sovereign" of the Southern Continent, as revealed at the end of Bands of Mourning - somehow he returned to the Physical Realm via Hemalurgy with the aid of Spook and Marsh?

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

But he fought with Elend outside the Pits of Hathsin while having only the one eye-spike, so that would mean he was able to get to those Inquisitor spikes after Harmony rearranged the world. Hmm.

2 things about this statement. Per Inkthinker, he got his F-Atium spike just after Vin ascended, which is before his fight with Elend. Coincidentally, this is also when Ruin would've been most distracted by his plan going off the rails. Secondly, SH spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier talks to Spook about those spikes laying around (which I believe Spook, as Lord Mistborn, ordered to be rounded up without any outside influence) so they were definitely able to be found, though it might have been a difficult search.
Kel talks about trying to repeat TLR's trick of becoming immortal to entice him, so Spook's experimenting may make your spoiler tag possible

I don't think you need to spoiler BoM, since they integrated the spoiler board now.

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

2 things about this statement. Per Inkthinker, he got his F-Atium spike just after Vin ascended, which is before his fight with Elend. Coincidentally, this is also when Ruin would've been most distracted by his plan going off the rails. Secondly, SH spoilers:

  Hide contents

Kelsier talks to Spook about those spikes laying around (which I believe Spook, as Lord Mistborn, ordered to be rounded up without any outside influence) so they were definitely able to be found, though it might have been a difficult search.
Kel talks about trying to repeat TLR's trick of becoming immortal to entice him, so Spook's experimenting may make your spoiler tag possible

 

How would Marsh have had the knowledge to pick out the right spike? The eye socket spike is one thing - they were probably the same for all Inquisitors, since all Inquisitors had two eye-spikes - so it would have to have been motivated by Ruin, whose motivations for giving any Inquisitor F-Atium are still murky, but why to give it to a non-Marsh one first - and then having Marsh harvest it after it lost charge - is doubly murky.

I always thought Marsh had the most spikes of any Inquisitor because Ruin saw him as a kind of Queen chesspiece, his Swiss Army Knife of Inquisitors, and that he'd be first in line for any spikes - in which case it'd be a little odd for another Inquisitor to get a spike Marsh didn't have first, unless it was a matter of another Inquisitor being close to dying naturally of old age, where it was worth throwing atium compounding to him just to have him around at all.

And yes, I was just re-reading SH this morning on the way to work, you're right that there is a ready source of all non-Marsh Inquisitor spikes...

 

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I always thought Marsh had the most spikes of any Inquisitor because Ruin saw him as a kind of Queen chesspiece, his Swiss Army Knife of Inquisitors, and that he'd be first in line for any spikes - in which case it'd be a little odd for another Inquisitor to get a spike Marsh didn't have first, unless it was a matter of another Inquisitor being close to dying naturally of old age, where it was worth throwing Atium compounding to him just to have him around at all.

Ok, some of what I am about to say may not be confirmed, but rather the popular opinion. The way I, and some others, understood it is that (at first) Marsh had the most spikes because he was the hardest for Ruin to control. The extra spikes more susceptible to Ruin's control, and made him more dangerous. Win-win for Ruin.

As for why other Inquisitor got it and not Marsh, the WoB stands. "Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet." We don't know because Brandon hasn't decided to tell us.

As for compounding, they had to figure that out on their own. TLR and Ruin both left them in the dark. The main reason Marsh figured it out to begin with is because he was there when Sazed theorized on how TLR did it at the end of Book 1.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

How would Marsh have had the knowledge to pick out the right spike?

I have absolutely no idea. I reread Inkthinker's wording, and it only talks about his 22 spikes in the context of "just before Harmony." I still don't see a way that he could get all the way back to Kredik Shaw after facing Elend, find and place the F-Atium spike, and find a underground safehouse in the time it took for Vin to lose it, attack Ruin, and Sazed to take up both the Shards and remake the world, so I still see him getting the Spike a little before the battle against Elend.

---

After rereading the thread with Inkthinker's info, I think I have it figured out. Credit to PorridgeBrick for the idea. In Preservation's altered Metallic Arts, Atium was in the Temporal quadrant. Gold spikes are theorized to steal Feruchemical powers in that quadrant. Cadmium and Bendalloy got replaced with Atium and Malatium, so those are out. They don't even know what F-Electrum does at that point in time, the only other power worth having in that segment is F-Gold, which Marsh already has. So PorridgeBrick posited that his second Gold spike gives him F-Atium, something that cannot be replicated in the modern era.

So this is my answer: He knows the bindpoint to get Gold Healing, since he has a spike granting that. It's the only Gold spike other than F-Atium worth having, so he would know which spike it was. He finds a dead Inquisitor with a different Gold spike, takes it and places it in the same location on himself.

The only other reasonable explanation is he "glimpsed" the needed information from Ruin when he inhabited his mind to make other Inquisitors, like the prologue of HoA.

Edited January 3, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Giving Credit where due.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Just my own theory but 

Spoiler

I think at some point Ruin began making Marsh his 'Queen piece' to hurt Kelsier. Probably after Kell ran off to the Ire which Ruin didn't want.

 

[+robardin he/him]

Actually, the timing of the F-Atium spike as "before the battle at the Pits of Hathsin" would make it Ruin's decision, not Marsh's. So there's no need to guess how Marsh would know which spike to take and where to place it - Ruin would be making him do it. There's no way Marsh could have gained control of himself enough to do an unauthorized Hemalurgic upgrade, especially after his "contribution" to Vin's Ascension by seizing control of his body for the fraction of a second it took to pull out her earring.

Only if Marsh did it to himself, or had an accomplice do it, is the question pertinent: it would have to have been after the Catacendre - as it appears is the case with his left eye-spike - using the collection of Inquisitor spikes that were in the Cavern Formerly Beneath Kredik Shaw. I guess Marsh/Ruin had seen fit to move all the other Inquisitors' spikes, the ones that Vin slaughtered just before Ascending, into that traditional blood-jar storage cavern for TBA Inquisitor spikes.

Can you give a link to Inkthinker's thread where it's shown that Marsh was F-atium'ed after Vin Ascended but before she took down Ruin (after Elend's death)?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

Actually, the timing of the F-Atium spike as "before the battle at the Pits of Hathsin" would make it Ruin's decision, not Marsh's. [..] There's no way Marsh could have gained control of himself enough to do an unauthorized Hemalurgic upgrade, especially after his "contribution" to Vin's Ascension.

Only if Marsh did it to himself, or had an accomplice do it, is the question pertinent: it would have to have been after the Catacendre - as it appears is the case with his left eye-spike [..] Cavern Formerly Beneath Kredik Shaw. I guess Marsh/Ruin had seen fit to move all the other Inquisitors' spikes, the ones that Vin slaughtered just before Ascending, into that traditional blood-jar storage cavern for TBA Inquisitor spikes.

Can you give a link to Inkthinker's thread where it's shown that Marsh was F-atium'ed after Vin Ascended but before she took down Ruin (after Elend's death)?

I technically disagree that there is no way that Marsh could have control over himself. Ruin loses a bit of control over him in times of intense emotion (which let Marsh free Vin to begin with) I imagine that his rage about Vin ascending could loosen his grip, especially since he has to greet/deal with his new guest. Not saying that it's a guarantee, but that writing it off as "in control" is what got Ruin killed.

Due to specific wording by Brandon, people are starting to think his other eye spike is a fake, but that's another discussion entirely.

Ah, so that's what happened to the spikes in the interim before they came into a certain "Lord's" possession. Now where did I miss that little detail?

I can link you to the page where that info was brought in as a source (I cannot link you to a direct comment because it's more difficult than on Theoryland)

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8829-marshs-powers-and-the-hemalurgy-use/?page=3

The relevant post, just for convenience

Quote

Also- Inkthinker has spoken. Word of Brandon regarding Marsh incoming. This is just what the Spikes are, not what they contain, but I think it'll be process of elimination from there. Here we go.

 

   Hide contents

It's pretty close to a similar piece I did for The Mistborn Adventure Game >> www.inkthinker.net/illustratio… <<. Everything we put into that book was run past Brandon, and while I don't recall his feedback on the Codex page verbatim, it's what we published so I reckon it's either close enough or not that important (I have a vague memory of him telling me that what's most important is lots of blood contact). 

It'll probably do until someone can ask him at a signing or something, but even then I bet a clip he asks Peter. Between all the Cosmere books just up to now, he's got so many details to keep track of that they've started to wiki them.

Marsh's page in the Game says he has, prior to the death of TLR, 10 spikes in total (4 Steel, 4 Bronze, 1 Gold and 1 Atium). At the height of his power, just before Harmony, he had 22 spikes (8 Steel, 2 Pewter, 8 Bronze, 2 Gold, 1 Aluminum and 1 Atium). I'm 99% sure that the four steel go two in the eyes, one at the top of the spine, and one through the heart. As to the bronze, gold and atium, I'd put the singles into his torso along the center line, and the four bronze into his ribs (2 each side). Symmetry is more attractive. 

If you want to add more, placing them along the sides of the spine makes for a neat silhouette. I don't suggest actually having them stick out of his skin very far, that's just the diagram. In practice, I think you'd nail 'em all the way in. And they don't all have to be as long or wide as rail spikes, that's just the first four steel ones.  

I hope that helps, some!

 

Okay, so, here's our new list of Spikes. [ . . . ]

He uses "just before Harmony" as his wording, but I didn't see a way he could make it all the way back to Kredik Shaw, do the spike things and find an underground place to hide in the short span of Vin losing it, killing Ruin, and Sazed taking everything.

I realize that I may have made a mistake because I forgot he has F-Steel. He could compound speed to get places faster if Ruin wasn't holding him back anymore.

Edited January 4, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Text size errors

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I can link you to the page where that info was brought in as a source (I cannot link you to a direct comment because it's more difficult than on Theoryland)

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8829-marshs-powers-and-the-hemalurgy-use/?page=3

The relevant post, just for convenience

He uses "just before Harmony" as his wording, but I didn't see a way he could make it all the way back to Kredik Shaw, do the spike things and find an underground place to hide in the short span of Vin losing it, killing Ruin, and Sazed taking everything.

I realize that I may have made a mistake because I forgot he has F-Steel. He could compound speed to get places faster if Ruin wasn't holding him back anymore.

I think we're maybe overthinking it a bit here. The comments above about how Marsh, at the height of his power, just before Harmony, had 22 spikes, and how the 8 steel spikes of the 22 total include 2 eye spikes when he clearly had one missing in the fight with Elend, I would read as loosely timed chronology-wise - not that "at the instant Sazed double-Ascended, Marsh already had 22 spikes, including replacing his missing eye-spike", and then inferring that that was only possible with Feruchemical Steelrunning.

Because that would mean that Marsh, finally free of Ruin's control, had a first impulse to replace or augment his hemalurgic spike collection instead of simply being dazed while the world burned around him, or doing something more Marsh-like in terms of helping people get underground. I just don't see that as in character.

Instead, I would choose to read that as a statement that "at the height of his power before Harmony" - i.e., the "Ruined Inquisitor" version of Marsh, as opposed to the free-willed but super-spiked Marsh - he had 22 spikes, which includes the eye-spike Vin pulled out (which was certainly "before Harmony"), and specifically NOT mentioning any spikes he replaced or acquired post-Harmony.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I think we're maybe overthinking it a bit here. The comments above about how Marsh, at the height of his power, just before Harmony, had 22 spikes, and how the 8 steel spikes of the 22 total include 2 eye spikes when he clearly had one missing in the fight with Elend, I would read as loosely timed chronology-wise - not that "at the instant Sazed double-Ascended, Marsh already had 22 spikes, including replacing his missing eye-spike", and then inferring that that was only possible with Feruchemical Steelrunning.

Because that would mean that Marsh, finally free of Ruin's control, had a first impulse to replace or augment his hemalurgic spike collection instead of simply being dazed while the world burned around him, or doing something more Marsh-like in terms of helping people get underground. I just don't see that as in character.

Instead, I would choose to read that as a statement that "at the height of his power before Harmony" - i.e., the "Ruined Inquisitor" version of Marsh, as opposed to the free-willed but super-spiked Marsh - he had 22 spikes, which includes the eye-spike Vin pulled out (which was certainly "before Harmony"), and specifically NOT mentioning any spikes he replaced or acquired post-Harmony.

The spikes that Inkthinker gave a location for were for his original 10 (11 in the book, but we'll let that slide as the MAG having it wrong). Meaning that those aren't specifically in the already loose chronology. Minor difference and uh, anyway.. For the purpose of him getting all the way to Kredik Shaw and then to safety the way I assumed happened, it would require Steelrunning, but as you've pointed out, my "method" seems a tad out of character for him.

I'm putting a different rationale for why he might do it of his own will in quotes, because typing on mobile gets cluttered.

Quote

Since he already had KanPaar's bag of Atium at that point, if he somehow knew which of the dead Inquisitors had the F-Atium spike, I personally would allow Brandon to use the "he felt he was already too far gone" excuse for it being somewhat out of character. Especially if he realized he just murdered Elend.

After all, there's no Kelsier to convince him to come back this time.

I understand how super-villain Marsh could be explained as the "height of his power." Your interpretation makes sense, and doesn't have much that could be disputed because opinions are like that.

I will say that if his 2nd Gold Spike is F-Atium, then that means he got it before Harmony no matter who we think influenced him.

[+robardin he/him]

25 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I will say that if his 2nd Gold Spike is F-Atium, then that means he got it before Harmony no matter who we think influenced him.

Yeah, but you linked earlier to a WoB where Brandon himself said that Marsh's F-atium spike was harvested from one of the Inquisitors Vin killed, presumably at that Pre-Ascension Throwdown at Kredik Shaw. So clearly he did it after Vin Ascended, but before going to the Pits, yeah? Plenty of time for that to happen - at that point in the narrative, if the parallel POVs are also parallel in time, the Second Generation of the kandra were just about to stage their coup.

With Marsh as the Last Inquisitor Standing, it would make sense that Ruin guided him to do so at that point. Whatever reason he hadn't given Marsh one of everything before, there was now every reason to give him one of everything now.

We don't know why another Inquisitor got an F-atium spiked before where Marsh did not, but that's probably when it happened for Marsh. Or, possible SH ending spoiler, 

Spoiler

unless he figured it out later on his own with Kelsier and Spook.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by robardin