The other end-negative system is...

[Oversleep]

That's the topic to discuss what can be that other end-negative system.
Relevant WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Feb 20th 2015
Argent

Are there any other end-negative magic systems out there other than hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

Have we seen either the system or the world one of them is in?

Brandon Sanderson

Literal RAFO.
source

Quote

Nov 30th, 2016
Question

Have we seen any of the system or the world that has end-negative magic system other than Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is one more end-negative magic system and you have seen minor hints of it.
source

 

So what can we draw from these WoBs?

• there is exactly one another end-negative magic system other than Hemalurgy
• as of the time as Edgedancer was released we have seen minor hints of it

This can mean that we've seen (we have seen, so for example Silence Above is out of the question):

• worldhopper with that magic
• some device made with that magic
• the third possibility I will describe below

Obviously worldhoppers are hard to spot (vide: Felt, Terrisan woman in Warbreaker, Hemalurgist and/or WalDo).
As long as devices are concerned those could be Ones Above, but various WoBs have it that (I was gonna link them all but it's too much) we've seen them before, so unless they picked up another magic system on their way to Drominad System they're not what we're looking for.

The third possibility is that we haven't actually seen anything of that system but we have seen something of the Shard that powers it. For example, it could be Trell. We have certainly have seen his influence and actions and a little of his magic (trellium after all) so it could be that the other end-neutral system is fueled by Trell somewhere else.

But my theory is that it's actually Ambition. That Ambition, mortally wounded in a clash against Odium in Threnody system, went and Splintered somewhere else. But before Ambition Splintered it had time to Invest a world, giving birth to a magic system and then died.

And the minor hints we have seen are Shades of Threnody. And their condition is caused by "waves of destruction - carrying ripped off chunks of Ambiton's power" which "twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody".

P.S. It cannot be First of the Sun magic symbiosis as it's not Shardic magic.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Oversleep

[Argent he/him]

My money was on something to do with the Shades too, but I never spent much time thinking about it. It just has a creepy vibe similar to what I get from Hemalurgy.

[Pagerunner he/him]

You kinda left out the obvious two, in my mind. Dakhor seems the most end-negative, very similar to Hemalurgy in that it requires the loss of human life. But, it might fall under the broader umbrella of "Selish magic," and you can argue that we've seen more than just hints of it. So, that leaves Voidbinding as my #1 candidate; we haven't seen anything of it yet, but we have seen hints like it lets you see the future and has 10 levels.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I asked about Ambition on the AU tour. It is not currently on a planet.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Pagerunner

[Oversleep]

@Pagerunner I think all Selish systems are end-positive. For Dakhor to eb end-negative it would have to reverse the flow of Investiture between Physical and Cognitive so that you're pouring Investiture into Dor.

I doubt Voidbinding is end-negative.

8 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I asked about Ambition on the AU tour. It is not currently on a planet.

Storm it. Hm... if it's dead maybe it's not anywhere anymore?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Oversleep

[Pagerunner he/him]

9 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I doubt Voidbinding is end-negative.

Why?

[king of nowhere]

the shades are also to me a likely candidate. Especially the fact that you need to continuously waste silver just to keep them out of somewhere, to maintain the status quo.

[Spoolofwhool]

I'll point out that shades exist not due to a shard's power. 

[Oversleep]

13 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'll point out that shades exist not due to a shard's power. 

There is no Shard on Threnody and there is no magic system. That's true. However:

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

their condition is caused by "waves of destruction - carrying ripped off chunks of Ambiton's power" which "twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody".

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Oversleep said:

There is no Shard on Threnody and there is no magic system. That's true. However:

Yet this WoB seems to be directly saying that the origin of shades is not shard-based.

Quote

RHANDRIC

That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science

I'm not disagreeing there isn't something goofy happening there because of Ambition, I just don't think the shades are it.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I asked about Ambition on the AU tour. It is not currently on a planet.

I thought about this. Who said that Shards can only Invest planets? There are a lot of celestial bodies that are not planets. Maybe Brandon is being clever here.

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

I doubt Voidbinding is end-negative.

59 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Why?

I don't know. No soild evidence. But I think you need end-positive to have powerful monsters - Mistborn are powerhouses. Elantrians are powerhouses, Dakhor are powerhouses. End-neutral is not something powerful enough to slaughter 90% of population. And end-negative is not even that.

Of course, Forgery is end-positive and it's not that powerful. So it's speculation, but if Voidbringers use Stormlight (and I think they do) they use end-positive.

[manukos he/him]

44 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Why?

I don't know. No soild evidence. But I think you need end-positive to have powerful monsters - Mistborn are powerhouses. Elantrians are powerhouses, Dakhor are powerhouses. End-neutral is not something powerful enough to slaughter 90% of population. And end-negative is not even that.

Of course, Forgery is end-positive and it's not that powerful. So it's speculation, but if Voidbringers use Stormlight (and I think they do) they use end-positive.

also being end negative would probably mean that they "consume" the spren which doesn't rly make sence since they call them their "old gods"

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is one more end-negative magic system and you have seen minor hints of it.

 

Well, for starters we shouldn't forget how sneaky Mr S can be. Could it possible be something to do with what Nale did in resurrecting Szeth?

 

"He held one hand behind his back, while his other hand tucked something away into his coat pocket. A Fabrial of some sort? Glowing brightly?"

 

This seems End-Negative to me, and it has been suggestive that The Heralds have other forms of investiture other than surge binding. There's definitely something else going on there. Have we found out how they can still surge bind without their Honor Blades?
Pfft.. I bet we got RAFO'd.

 

HIF out!

 

[Exalted]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

But I think you need end-positive to have powerful monsters - Mistborn are powerhouses. Elantrians are powerhouses, Dakhor are powerhouses. End-neutral is not something powerful enough to slaughter 90% of population. And end-negative is not even that.

Hemalurgy is end-negative, and yet Inquisitors and Koloss are both definite powerhouses. Nightblood is the product of an end-neutral system, and yet it could probably destroy 90% of a population given the chance. End-negative to end-neutral to end-positive isn't a scale of power output; it's a scale of net Investiture (potential, kinetic, ambient, or otherwise) after the magic is over and done with.

My personal suspicion is that the Dakhor monks are the other end-negative. Fifty deaths to give one person the ability to resist Aons seems a little lopsided to me.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

This seems End-Negative to me, and it has been suggestive that The Heralds have other forms of investiture other than surge binding. There's definitely something else going on there. Have we found out how they can still surge bind without their Honor Blades?

The Heralds can't surgebind without their Honorblades.

[Spoolofwhool]

55 minutes ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

My personal suspicion is that the Dakhor monks are the other end-negative. Fifty deaths to give one person the ability to resist Aons seems a little lopsided to me.

Not really. Humans don't carry much investiture normally, and aons are pretty investiture-heavy. Resisting would probably require a large amount of investiture, which would require a stronger connection to the Dor, requiring the innate investiture of 50 people to make.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Exalted]

2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not really. Humans don't carry much investiture normally, and aons are pretty investiture-heavy. Resisting would probably require a large amount of investiture, which would require a stronger connection to the Dor, requiring the innate investiture of 50 people to make.

But doesn't it take an amount of Investiture less than the amount contained in a person (i.e. one Nalthian breath) to noticeably alter them when viewed by Lifesense? And it doesn't appear to take a lot of Investiture to make metalminds (which, granted, are inanimate objects) immune to Era 2 allomancy.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

But doesn't it take an amount of Investiture less than the amount contained in a person (i.e. one Nalthian breath) to noticeably alter them when viewed by Lifesense? And it doesn't appear to take a lot of Investiture to make metalminds (which, granted, are inanimate objects) immune to Era 2 allomancy.

It does take a lot of investiture; the amount held in the bands of mourning, to make a metalmind fully resistant to allomancy. All other metalminds are not immune, just resistant (harder to push/pull). I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your first point. You're comparing two different systems which are performing different effects. Also, a nalthian with one breath is more invested than the standard human.

 

 

[Exalted]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

It does take a lot of investiture; the amount held in the bands of mourning, to make a metalmind fully resistant to allomancy. All other metalminds are not immune, just resistant (harder to push/pull). I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your first point. You're comparing two different systems which are performing different effects. Also, a nalthian with one breath is more invested than the standard human.

I seem to recall Wax saying that he couldn't Push on his own metalminds at some point? Maybe I'm wrong about that.

My first point was that an Awakener's Lifesense can detect how many Breaths someone is holding, and that a Breath is Investiture roughly equivalent to that of one person. (Nalthians have slightly more Investiture than other races, but their Breath doesn't contain all of it). Since adding or subtracting a Breath is a noticeable change if you're trying to detect it, wouldn't that suggest that humans have at least a fair bit of innate Investiture?

[Spoolofwhool]

36 minutes ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

I seem to recall Wax saying that he couldn't Push on his own metalminds at some point? Maybe I'm wrong about that.

It's harder, not impossible. Spoilered for size.

Spoiler

Quote

HEROWANNABE

I’m curious, I’ve got a list of various cosmere bits of metal, and I wonder if you would rank them from like 1 to 10 or easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay.

HEROWANNABE

So, like metal inside a person’s body?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It depends on how strong the investiture in them is.

HEROWANNABE

Is that going to be the answer for all of these?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Probably.

HEROWANNABE

How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Not in a person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not in a person? It depends on how strong—yeah. A spike is moderately—in the realm of these sorts of things—moderately easy to push on, because a spike does not rip off very much investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and it loses that over time. So I would put that at the bottom—with the top being very hard—to be one of the easier things.

HEROWANNABE

How about a metalmind? A feruchemy metalmind that is "full."

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is going to be middle of the realm. Generally easier than, for instance, a shardblade, which is going to be very hard.

AARADEL

But a shardblade isn’t actual metal. Ish?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

HEROWANNABE

So would that be the same for Shardplate, too?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Shardplate and blade are very hard. Blade is probably going to be harder. [...]

HEROWANNABE

Halfshard? Like a halfshard shield?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Halfshard shield is going to be in moderate.

HEROWANNABE

Nightblood? I imagine is going to be very difficult.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Very hard. Of all the things you’ve listed, he’s the hardest. Far beyond even a shardblade.

HEROWANNABE

Far beyond metal inside a person?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, depending on how invested the person is.

AARADEL

If someone was invested as much as Nightblood I’m pretty sure it’s going to be very difficult.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, for instance, the Godking, at the end, with all of those Breaths. Pushing on something inside of him? Getting through all that? Gonna be REAL hard. Average person on Scadrial? You’ve seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

HEROWANNABE

That was actually going to be my next one- No, sorry, not a drab, a Lifeless.

BRANDON SANDERSON

A Lifeless. Lifeless are kinda weird, because they’ve had their soul leave, but then they’ve had a replacement stuck in, in the form of Breath, which puts them in a really weird position compared to a Drab, which has had part of their investiture ripped away, but the majority of it remains. So anyway, I’m going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

HEROWANNABE

Okay, a soul-stamped piece of metal.

BRANDON SANDERSON

A soul-stamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of investiture going on in a soulstamp

 

 

39 minutes ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

My first point was that an Awakener's Lifesense can detect how many Breaths someone is holding, and that a Breath is Investiture roughly equivalent to that of one person. (Nalthians have slightly more Investiture than other races, but their Breath doesn't contain all of it). Since adding or subtracting a Breath is a noticeable change if you're trying to detect it, wouldn't that suggest that humans have at least a fair bit of innate Investiture?

I'm of the opinion that you can sense people with lifesense when they're holding breath but not drabs because of affinity between the breaths, not because of a threshold. Can't say for certain until we see someone using lifesense to detect a regular human or not. In any case, my point was not regarding exactly how much investiture humans hold, but more along the lines that compared to other uses of investiture, they have a low amount. In addition, I would think that forging an extra connection to a shard, one which wouldn't normally exist, would take a fairly hefty amount of investiture. Finally, all the magics on Sel that we've seen are variations of the same magic, so I think they all operate under the same classification for the most part, either end-positive, end-neutral, or end-negative. Perhaps slight deviation to end-neutral since most of the ones we've seen are end-positive, but I cannot see one deviating all the way to ed-negative.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The Heralds can't surgebind without their Honorblades.

I was assuming but has been confirmed?

Ok, ok..

EDGEDANCER SPOILER

Spoiler

At the end after Lift and Darkness make up, Darkness glowed and flew away..

Let's forget about the idea that he may possibly has another form of investiture / magic that could replicate Skybreaker Surgebinding.

This scene has spawned a Question: Can a Herald become a Radiant?

• Darkness has a Shardblade - I don't remember it noted his Shardblade had a Binding Gemstone, though that doesn't mean it doesn't.
• When Lift blocked his Shardblade with Wyndle she didn't hear the screams of the resurrected dead Spren... (like in the arena when Renarin touched ol'e matey's Shardblade - though that is a different scenario I guess, Renarin wasn't using his Spren)
• Hmmm, I had more but I forgot as I feel I have just thrown a theory out there and contradicted it at the same time..
• I still think the Question stands

Also, nothing on the possibility of Nale resurrecting Szeth being this so called end-negative magic system we've seen hinted?

*~ HIF ~*

Edited January 14, 2017 by Hoids Imaginary Friend

[Jondesu he/him]

4 minutes ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Also, nothing on the possibility of Nale resurrecting Szeth being this so called end-negative magic system we've seen hinted?

It's basically confirmed (it was stated outright in the first published version of WoR) that Nale used a Fabrial, probably one harnessing the Surge of Regrowth, to bring Szeth back. Not a new magic system.

As for your spoiler tag:

Spoiler

It's mostly been speculated that Nale is the one Herald who went back for their Honorblade (Taln's was never left behind, Jezrien's is the one Szeth was using, and it's basically confirmed that one Herald reclaimed their Blade, leaving the Shin with 7 during the time Szeth was being The Assassin in White).

As for Lift blocking the blade, though, she did that with Wyndle as basically a metal rod, but she never touched Nale's blade.  In the duel arena, Kaladin touches the other guy's blade directly (doing the lastclap), which awakens it enough for both of them to hear the screams, apparently.  Renarin heard screaming from his own blade, which was not Glys, but was the Shardblade Dalinar/Adolin had given to him.

That said, I don't think anything has indicated it would be impossible for a Herald to become a Radiant, though it would be redundant unless it was for a different order. Some have speculated that Shallash might become one (she's the Herald going around destroying artwork of herself, and Jezrien's daughter) since she's going to be one of the major characters for the back 5 books of the series, but I'm not convinced by that logic.

 

[Pagerunner he/him]

2 minutes ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

I was assuming but has been confirmed?

Ok, ok..

EDGEDANCER SPOILER

  Reveal hidden contents

At the end after Lift and Darkness make up, Darkness glowed and flew away..

Let's forget about the idea that he may possibly has another form of investiture / magic that could replicate Skybreaker Surgebinding.

This scene has spawned a Question: Can a Herald become a Radiant?

• Darkness has a Shardblade - I don't remember it noted his Shardblade had a Binding Gemstone, though that doesn't mean it doesn't.
• When Lift blocked his Shardblade with Wyndle she didn't hear the screams of the resurrected dead Spren... (like in the arena when Renarin touched ol'e matey's Shardblade - though that is a different scenario I guess, Renarin wasn't using his Spren)
• Hmmm, I had more but I forgot as I feel I have just thrown a theory out there and contradicted it at the same time..
• I still think the Question stands

Also, nothing on the possibility of Nale resurrecting Szeth being this so called end-negative magic system we've seen hinted?

*~ HIF ~*

Not confirmed, AFAIK. Last I recall, it was specifically RAFOd. They have some sort of abilities (longevity), but we'll have to wait and see what else they've got. That may influence whether or not they can bond a spren; to do so, you need 'cracks in the soul.' A Herald's soul might have some form of Honor's Investiture already there, which might interfere with bonding a spren. (Although, I think we recently learned you can bond multiple spren if you can attract them all, so this may not be the issue I'm worried it is.)

But I am pretty confident that Nale has his Honorblade. We knew from WoB that one Herald retrieved his/her Honorblade, and one Order (the Skybreakers) remained active in secret. It would require a very... interesting turn of events for Nale to not have his Honorblade. And, I think you have it backwards; the Highspren imitate Nale's Honorblade, not the other way around. The Heralds were the original Surgebinders, and the spren copied what they had.

Oh, and Szeth's resurrection, we've actually seen that glowing fabrial before, in one of Dalinar's flashbacks. I think it's hinting towards the deeper knowledge of fabrial science, not Voidbinding or an off-world magic system.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

 

@Jondesu @Pagerunner So it was a Fabrial! I was going off the wording in the book. And that's where the cookie crumbles on that idea

I don't know why but I though he had Nales Honorblade.. Though thinking back, he does use Adhesion doesn't he - that's where he makes people stick to the floor and objects isn't it? Like Kal sticking Lopen to the wall..

True, it was when Kal lastclap'd to save Reni (now wasn't that cool). Well, I was way off there.

@Pagerunner Cheers, was the RAFO on the question relating to weather the Heralds are from Roshar..? Thats probably where I got the idea of them having other forms of magic.. So, I guess that's just speculation.

And I did read a WoB regarding the Heralds all being afflicted by madness (cracks?)

Also WoB stating it is "possible" to bond multiple spren of the same type though it doesn't really multiply your Surgebinding. Ahhh, can't find it but If I memba right he likened it to an Honorblade and how it sucks more Stormlight or something along those lines..

Ok, ok.. I admit, I jumped the gun. You've convinced me that it's most likely Nale who has his Blade back (he would wouldn't he), it would be odd to teach his Skybreakers without it I guess..

Yeah, I knew about the Spren copying the Heralds - I wasn't going in that direction Although If the Heralds do have other "abilities" I wonder if it is akin to the Radiants buffs (like Windrunners and Squires) considering the Spren are copying them..

Thanks! You guys are awesome!

*~ HIF ~*

[Spoolofwhool]

It's confirmed that Nale is using his original Honorblade; there's a WoB stating so.

[Jondesu he/him]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It's confirmed that Nale is using his original Honorblade; there's a WoB stating so.

Nice, I hadn't seen that I don't think.