Why Scadrial's focus is metal

[Oversleep]

It all just clicked.
We know there is something funky with Scadrial's Realmatic interactions due to the fact that Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial.

We know that it's theoretically possible to make Shardblades of other Shards; we know that Shardblades (Rosharan ones) are made of godmetal. But as somebody pointed out, they wouldn't be necessarily Allomantic without a Shard Investing in Scadrial.

Wyndle mentions a link between power and metal (as Shardthings have to metal).

So far only Three Metallic Arts have "god" components - while Brandon mentioned that some Surges could be considered godSurges, it's not as clear cut. (I don't remember any god Aon and I doubt there is a God Command)

So I think it's a cosmere-wide phenomenom for Shard's power to manifest as metal. And that's why Ati and Leras created Scadrial with a focus of metal, to utilize this phenomenom - that way their own pieces can be used in their magic systems.

Of course, there are so-called godspren - but I think Roshar has a focus of spren and in that way it's similar to Scadrial: Scadrial uses Physical form of Investiture and Roshar uses Cognitive form.

The Spiritual form of Investiture is natural and is just Investiture.

EDIT: Perhaps aluminum was Adonalsium's godmetal - that's why it absorbs Investiture, because the god it belonged to no longer exists. It became void and that's why it absorb's Shards Investiture.
Of course, due to the fact it's Part of Metallic Arts it works, kind of.
Or maybe it's "atium is one of the metals" misdirection Phase 2. Maybe there is yet another metal and it's alloy. (Going crackpot here, I know)
EDIT 2: Going off the theory that it's chunks of Ambition what causes the Shades maybe Ambition's godmetal would be silver...? Naah, that's 99% wrong.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Oversleep

[A Budgie she/her]

Yeah, I was pretty sure metal was important cosmere-wide. There's evidence from other worlds as well- on Nathlis, metal is the hardest thing to awake, no matter its shape. Also, aliminium on Sel has the same anti-investiture properties as on Scadrial.

It certainly makes sense for shards to manifest as metal.

[Spoolofwhool]

Interesting theory. Going to have to think about it.

1 minute ago, A Budgie said:

Yeah, I was pretty sure metal was important cosmere-wide. There's evidence from other worlds as well- on Nathlis, metal is the hardest thing to awake, no matter its shape. Also, aliminium on Sel has the same anti-investiture properties as on Scadrial.

Metal and stone are together the hardest things, and that's explained as because they weren't originally part of living things.

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

EDIT 2: Going off the theory that it's chunks of Ambition what causes the Shades maybe Ambition's godmetal would be silver...? Naah, that's 99% wrong.

I still don't see how that theory works when it's been confirmed that shades are not caused by a shard.

 

[Emerald101 he/him]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

And that's why Ati and Leras created Scadrial with a focus of metal, to utilize this phenomenom - that way their own pieces can be used in their magic systems.

If that's the case, then what differentiates the godmetals from other metals? Are they somehow more pure? Also, I doubt that the spiritual manifestation of investiture is somehow investiture in it's natural state. While investiture usually resides in the spiritual, WoB says it transcends the three realms. I certainly agree that solid investiture appears as solid in every instance I can think of where we see it, but I'm not sure on the rest of this theory.

[Fezzik]

The liquid form of a shard is a shard pool. The physical form is:

Scadrial: godmetal

Roshar: honorblades

Sel: soulstone

Nalthis: tears of edgli (plant)

Taldain: bacteria/fungus living on the sand

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I still don't see how that theory works when it's been confirmed that shades are not caused by a shard.

 

Well, in Secret History Nazh talks about Cognitive Shadows as if they're a revered part of society and religion (becoming one is "an important rite", and Nazh seems shocked by Kelsier doing it as a desperation move), which doesn't fit at all with what we see in "Shadows for Silence", where they're a plague and you really want to avoid becoming one.

IMO, this implies something major changed between when Nazh left Threnody and the time of "Shadows for Silence".

So while Threnody having a lot of Cognitive Shadows which are known to/interact with living people more than other worlds is "natural", the fact that they're a contagious plague could totally be related to warped Ambition-bits (Ambition twisted into an urge to consume and remake in one's own image, perhaps?)

[Oversleep]

6 hours ago, john203 said:

Scadrial: godmetal

Roshar: honorblades Shardblades in general

Sel: soulstone Nope

Nalthis: tears of edgli (plant) You could make an argument like that but it's more likely a plant feeding of Enowment Investiture, not pure Investiture

Taldain: bacteria/fungus living on the sand We literally don't know right now how Sand Mastery works - it's so much different from other magic systems.

Fixed.

7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I still don't see how that theory works when it's been confirmed that shades are not caused by a shard.

I think we knew that Shades aren't caused by a Shard in the meaning "There is a Shard there and it's part of its magic system" but going off AU essays (Threnody was showered with ripped off chunks of Ambition) I find it hard to believe it's not related.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Oversleep

[Ari he/him]

6 hours ago, john203 said:

The liquid form of a shard is a shard pool. The physical form is:

Scadrial: godmetal

Roshar: honorblades

Sel: soulstone

Nalthis: tears of edgli (plant)

Taldain: bacteria/fungus living on the sand

You mean solid form? Remember, not all perpendicularities are liquid. It's likely that Honour's is gaseous, and that Ruin's is solid. (in case you hadn't got that from Hoid's admonitions about Kelsier destroying the Pits of Hathsin, the Atium Geodes are a distributed solid perpendicularity)

We're not necessarily certain that Soulstone is solid investiture iirc, and some people have also debated whether the Tears are themselves a characteristic physical manifestation of investiture or have simply absorbed it from growing near a liquid Perpendicularity, which is I think a fair point. It would also make Nalthis an interesting exception as the other solid forms of investiture you list all seem to be related to the focus of a particular magic system, but the Tears of Edgli definitely aren't, as we've had WoB that Commands are Awakening's focus.

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well, in Secret History Nazh talks about Cognitive Shadows as if they're a revered part of society and religion (becoming one is "an important rite", and Nazh seems shocked by Kelsier doing it as a desperation move), which doesn't fit at all with what we see in "Shadows for Silence", where they're a plague and you really want to avoid becoming one.

IMO, this implies something major changed between when Nazh left Threnody and the time of "Shadows for Silence".

So while Threnody having a lot of Cognitive Shadows which are known to/interact with living people more than other worlds is "natural", the fact that they're a contagious plague could totally be related to warped Ambition-bits (Ambition twisted into an urge to consume and remake in one's own image, perhaps?)

Yeah, I think you're on to something here that's a lot easier to connect now that we know that Threnody's shard was Ambition. The rites he referred to could very well have been around some sort of cult of Ambition where people who met certain criteria were allowed to immortalise themselves as undamaged cognitive shades... then something set the rites wrong and spawned the shades we see in Shadows For Silence.

 

As to the theory that Metal is important... I'm not sure. I think it's equally as likely that shards can manifest solid investiture in ways that fit into other magic systems, so Spren materialising as Tanavastium fits into the metalic arts by pure virtue of the Radiants using them as metal weapons, but it's likely that the "Trellium" we encountered in the W&W novels was from a planet we've already seen having one of their shards manifest their own investiture as metal.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 hours ago, Ari said:

You mean solid form? Remember, not all perpendicularities are liquid. It's likely that Honor's is gaseous, and that Ruin's is solid. (in case you hadn't got that from Hoid's admonitions about Kelsier destroying the Pits of Hathsin, the Atium Geodes are a distributed solid perpendicularity)

Do you think Brandon would still refer to some manner of Atium forming a solid perpendicularity as a "pool?" Actually, do we know that not all of them are liquid? I've never seen that speculation before now.

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Nalthis: Tears of Edgli (plant) You could make an argument like that but it's more likely a plant feeding of Endowment Investiture, not pure Investiture

I agree with this sentiment. Brandon has called the readers perceptive on noting the Shardpools throughout the books and not having one in Warbreaker. He basically RAFO'd if such a pool is underneath where the Tears of Edgli grow though, so it makes me want to believe your interpretation just a little bit more.

3 hours ago, Ari said:

I think it's equally as likely that shards can manifest solid investiture in ways that fit into other magic systems, so Spren materializing as Tanavastium fits into the metallic arts by pure virtue of the Radiants using them as metal weapons

I remember a WoB asking about a shard lightsaber, with Brandon saying that is would still be some form of metal item since the Spren "can't do plasma," but [..] Found it.

Quote

So, why is it that there are only dead swords?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s a good question that will be answered in the future.

Question

Could they make a lightsaber?

Brandon Sanderson

They could make...metal weapons of a similar style to that, so no, we’re not talking lightsabers. Creating plasma is not something that we’re looking at.

 

[Pagerunner he/him]

I like it. Investiture manifesting in different phases across the Realms is something that's recently been of interest to me, (just like you've got metals/liquid/mist in the Physical Realm, maybe there are different 'spiritual' Phases; one form can latch onto SDNa to provide magic, while another form of Spiritual Investiture is the 'body' of a Shard), so I agree 100% that all Shards can manifest as metals. I like the idea that Ruin and Preservation specifically designed their planet to take advantage of this Shardic phenomenon, and how it makes god metals something unique to Scadrial (since we haven't seen that same phenomenon in other magic systems).

[Ari he/him]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Do you think Brandon would still refer to some manner of Atium forming a solid perpendicularity as a "pool?" Actually, do we know that not all of them are liquid? I've never seen that speculation before now.

I agree with this sentiment. Brandon has called the readers perceptive on noting the Shardpools throughout the books and not having one in Warbreaker. He basically RAFO'd if such a pool is underneath where the Tears of Edgli grow though, so it makes me want to believe your interpretation just a little bit more.

I remember a WoB asking about a shard lightsaber, with Brandon saying that is would still be some form of metal item since the Spren "can't do plasma," but [..] Found it.

 

This was before he had used the word perpendicularity in a book, so I always read that as him correcting Chaos' assumption that it had to be a pool. He's been very clear in later WoBs that Ruin didn't have a liquid perpendicularity or "shardpool" like the others we had seen at the time.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 hours ago, Ari said:

He's been very clear in later WoBs that Ruin didn't have a liquid perpendicularity or "shardpool" like the others we had seen at the time.

Has he? Guess I haven't seen those. Time to go searching, I'll be back sometime later

[Wandering Investor]

15 hours ago, Ari said:

This was before he had used the word perpendicularity in a book, so I always read that as him correcting Chaos' assumption that it had to be a pool. He's been very clear in later WoBs that Ruin didn't have a liquid perpendicularity or "shardpool" like the others we had seen at the time.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Ruin has a shardpool. In the logbook, there is mention of a pool that looks metallic black, and I recall seeing a WoB state there is a shardpool deep deep down in the Pits.

 

Also, while metal is important, Shards manifest as all three types of matter, not just solids. I don't think a planets focus is determined by the Shard, but more a mixing between the planet's natural investiture and the Shard's.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[Pagerunner he/him]

19 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Also, while metal is important, Shards manifest as all three types of matter, not just solids. I don't think a planets focus is determined by the Shard, but more a mixing between the planet's natural investiture and the Shard's.

For most planets, that would be true. But key to this theory is that Scadrial is an artificial planet, created completely by Ruin and Preservation. So they could key in the planet's 'natural' properties to be something specific, like having a metal focus, to take advantage of a particular physical form of Investiture.

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

For most planets, that would be true. But key to this theory is that Scadrial is an artificial planet, created completely by Ruin and Preservation. So they could key in the planet's 'natural' properties to be something specific, like having a metal focus, to take advantage of a particular physical form of Investiture.

 

 

Sorry, not the planet specifically, but its location in the cosmere. For instance, my guess is if you saw a soul and a piece of metal floating in space where Scadrial would eventually be, before the shards ever got there, both would glow in Shademar. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[Oversleep]

28 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Sorry, not the planet specifically, but its location in the cosmere. For instance, if you saw a soul and a piece of metal floating in space where Scadrial would eventually be, before the shards ever got there, both would glow in Shademar. 

And that's new. Care to link a source for that?

[Wandering Investor]

21 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

And that's new. Care to link a source for that?

That's a theory, not a confirmed fact. Just based on the differences between the sections in Shademar, the Expanse of Vapors, possibly referring to Scadrial, Roshar's section being made of beads, and the other Expences. These seem to indicate that the areas of the cosmere, not the planets themselves, have traits. My theory is that focuses are a trait of these Expances, not the planet, artificial or otherwise. Have we seen any stories, or hints of stories, set on different planets in the same system?

[Oversleep]

Please don't state things as if they're fact if they are just a theory, OK? It confuses people.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Oversleep

[Pagerunner he/him]

15 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

That's a theory, not a confirmed fact. Just based on the differences between the sections in Shademar, the Expanse of Vapors, possibly referring to Scadrial, Roshar's section being made of beads, and the other Expences. These seem to indicate that the areas of the cosmere, not the planets themselves, have traits. My theory is that focuses are a trait of these Expances, not the planet, artificial or otherwise. Have we seen any stories, or hints of stories, set on different planets in the same system?

It's a novel idea to me, that the cosmere itself has a sort of 'spirit-web' and planets tap into different parts of it for the nature of their magics depending on where they are. It's got a nice parallel with Hemalurgy, which shows how the Physical Realm can specify a specific piece of Investiture in the Spiritual Realm. I don't think it's entirely incompatible with this theory, though; we'd just need to say that R&P chose the Scadrian system because of its metal focus, rather than say that they devised the metal focus in the first place.

[Wandering Investor]

2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

It's a novel idea to me, that the cosmere itself has a sort of 'spirit-web' and planets tap into different parts of it for the nature of their magics depending on where they are. It's got a nice parallel with Hemalurgy, which shows how the Physical Realm can specify a specific piece of Investiture in the Spiritual Realm. I don't think it's entirely incompatible with this theory, though; we'd just need to say that R&P chose the Scadrian system because of its metal focus, rather than say that they devised the metal focus in the first place.

 

That is entirely possible. Khriss guessed that they chose the system due to the empty space to work with, but what if they chose it for reasons based on its Expanses traits. It would depend on how well they can influence the magic/system and its focus, or if they can anticipate what the focus is should it be out of their control. The only reason I'm unsure about the planet itself influencing the focus is that all multi-shard world's we've seen all use the same focus among the planet's magic system. If the focus can be architected/engineered, which if that's possibly in an artificial world it's probably possible on a normal one, then why would the shards use the same focus in their magic systems?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

38 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Just based on the differences between the sections in Shademar, the Expanse of Vapors, referring to Scadrial, Roshar's being made of beads, and the other Expanses. These seem to indicate that the areas of the cosmere, not the planets themselves, have traits. My theory is that focuses are a trait of these Expanses, not the planet, artificial or otherwise.

The problem with this idea is that the Expanses are in the Cognitive Realm. The Cognitive only has areas with cognitive thought, i.e. Life usually. Before Scadrial was created, there was no thinking life in that section of the Physical Realm, thus there was no cognitive equivalent for that area. Logically, there was no Expanse of the Vapors before R&P created life on Scadrial. Which means that the focus cannot directly be a trait of the Expanse as opposed to the planet, since the planet had to have existed first for thinking life to exist there.

[Oversleep]

The focus is tied to the planet itself. Having created Scadrial, Leras and Ati could have influenced its creation to get a focus they wanted.

[Pagerunner he/him]

26 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

That is entirely possible. Khriss guessed that they chose the system due to the empty space to work with, but what if they chose it for reasons based on its Expanses traits. It would depend on how well they can influence the magic/system and its focus, or if they can anticipate what the focus is should it be out of their control. The only reason I'm unsure about the planet itself influencing the focus is that all multi-shard world's we've seen all use the same focus among the planet's magic system. If the focus can be architected/engineered, which if that's possibly in an artificial world it's probably possible on a normal one, then why would the shards use the same focus in their magic systems?

I'm not certain I understand the question. The focus wouldn't be designed while Shards are Investing in a planet; it would be an inherent part of the planet, even if there were no Shards there. (That much, I agree with you, although I think the phenomenon is catalyzed by planets themselves.) When the Shards 'built' the planet, they could determine its focus, but they would still have to select only one.

To make an analogy, it's sort of like gravity. When Shards create a planet, they can choose it to be whatever size they want (to achieve whatever surface gravity they desire). It seems they modeled it after Yolen, specifically, at 1.0 Earth Standard gravity. They could have made it larger or smaller, but what they couldn't do would be have half the planet at 0.8 Standard and the other at 1.2 Standard. That just wouldn't work; to be stable, a planet needs to be round, and the gravitational constant does not vary. But is there a specific reason they'd create it at 1.0 Standard?

So, the analogy is this: Ruin and Preservation still needed to create their planet with a single focus, like all other Shardworlds. (Universal law of gravity.) But they chose it to be metal (either through selecting an appropriate subastral, or through properly creating the Spiritual/Cognitive aspects of the new planet, it doesn't much matter to me) to be metal, because of how Shards commonly manifest as metal in the Physical realm. (Same way they might have created it at 1.0 Standard gravity to replicate Yolen's wildlife perfectly; intentional, but constrained by rules.)

As far as 'Expanses' and whether or not they exist independent of inhabited planets, I'm not necessarily convinced either way. In Secret History, Kelsier saw strange plants growing when he left Scadrial's mists, so there is something going on in the Cognitive Realm in interstellar space. Furthermore, Hoid's term for an Expanse is a 'subastral,' which means something like 'below a star,' so the properties of an Expanse might have to do with the star, and not the individual planets in its system. Roshar could possibly give us more info on the subject, but we have yet to see the other planets in that system. (It's actually been a bit of contention as to where Ashyn and Braize are on the Shadesmar map. Lots of people have come up with explanations for which planets fit for the Expanses, but they exclude the other Rosharan planets, since we don't know a lot about them. Are they a Nexus, or a Sea? Are they one of the Expanses? Do they have beads in Shadesmar, or do they have a different phenomenon? I'm not sure we've seen enough for a definitive answer yet.)

[Wandering Investor]

What if the Expanses have Physicical components, but not obvious ones, such as the focuses. Does the Cognitive realm cease to exist if no one is around, or is it just empty? Also, the Expanses could be similar to physics. Rules that exist, regardless of whether there is anything there or not. 

 

1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

The focus is tied to the planet itself. Having created Scadrial, Leras and Ati could have influenced its creation to get a focus they wanted.

Do we know the focus is tied to the planet? If that's confirmed, then the expanse idea goes out the window. 

 

Also, why want metal. The entire planet is their power manifested, they don't seem to be limited just metal. Although Wyndal's comment seems to indicate unknown rules involving metal.

[Pagerunner he/him]

10 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

The focus is tied to the planet itself.

That's the question at hand, is that actually the case? Brandon himself hasn't spoke about Focuses; it's popular theory, and one that ties a lot of stuff together, but a theory nonetheless. Assuming it's true, we'll need to see if Braize and Ashyn have different focuses to confirm if it's a system-wide or a planet-wide phenomenon. If Voidbinding is actually of Braize, and the focus is still spren, then that would indicate that it's the planetary system, not the planets themselves, that determines the focus. (Or sound. I've also seen the theory that the Focus on Roshar is sound, that you have to 'speak' Oaths, that the cymatics of the various cities is integral to the planet's nature. Like I said, the very idea of focus is a theory, so there's a ton of room in it for different interpretations.)

So, as a wise poster once said...

51 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Please don't state things as if they're fact if they are just a theory, OK? It confuses people.