Lashing Argument

[Deldraedair]

Hey guys! Jonathan here!

This is my first post to the 17th shard and it was brought about by a subject of discussion/argument between my brothers and I. Everyone in my family are die-hard fans of the Cosmere, the Stormlight Archive in particular, and an idea struck my brother a little while ago. He was reading in the Ars Arcanum at the end of Words of Radiance and came across the part talking about how gravitational lashings worked. He read (I paraphrase): "Advanced uses of this lashing would allow a Windrunner to make him or herself lighter by binding a portion of his or her mass upward." He thought, and still thinks, that a Windrunner could cut a person in half by binding one half of a person's body one way and another half the opposite way, splitting them in two. He thought this by assuming that when it said: "...bind a portion of his or her MASS..." that it meant the literal flesh of a person's body, and that one could single out half of a person with a lashing. I objected to this (me and my older brother who sided with me), trying to explain to him that when the Ars Arcanum used the word 'mass', that it was talking about the more complicated meaning involving weight. I explained to him Einsteins theory of relativity, explaining how gravity works with a pillow. The earth (and the spiritual bond to it that lashings interfere with) is like a large weight in the middle of the pillow, and lashings are like putting a very heavy weight away from the central weight (the earth), overcoming the earths gravitational bond and drawing a marble (the thing a Windrunner is lashing) away from it. I asked him if he could split a marble by placing it on a pillow and pressing down on the pillow on either side of it. He could not, obviously, however he still thought he was correct. I continued to explain that lashings (and therefore gravity, which is all the lashings effect) are all about weight and that an object, in order to be split by two lashings, would need to have two separate weights, while remaining one whole being. This is of course impossible, yet my brother still doesn't understand. I know this is an abstract topic and perhaps somewhat irrelevant, but it has been the subject of many a lengthy argument. My brother and I would both like a second opinion on the matter. Please respond and let me know what you think. Could lashings split someone in half with two lashings on either side?

Thanks! 

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[Pattern he/him]

Assuming the lashings effect the center of mass like steel-pushes or iron-pulls in allomancy, opposite forces just cancel each other, so you would not be ripped apart. Might be that surgebinding is a bit more variable in use, so if you imagined the lashings right you could lash the head in one direction (attachment of force in heads center of mass) and the torso in the other direction. After all, Szeth was able to lash a single stone in a wall in the prologue of WoK Edit due to Calderis correction: when Szeth goes for the Veden king:

Quote

As bodies crashed into the Shardbearers, he knelt and placed his hand on a large stone in the wall before him, infusing it. He Lashed it time and time again in the direction of the Shardbearers. Once, twice, ten times, fifteen times. He kept pouring Stormlight into it. It glowed brightly. Mortar cracked. Stone ground against stone.

The red Shardbearer turned just as the massive, infused rock fell toward him...

It definitely needs some mental gymnastics and definitely cirumstances which don't break oaths, but there certainly can be found situations where this applies to. A physical separation of objects certainly makes it easier.

Lashings attached to two different points of a body could rip the body apart, though that definitely would not happen when a surgebinder lashes himself partially.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Pattern
Correction

[Luka]

Doesn't that sort of thing in the cosmere rely a lot on how the person views something? I think in order to do this, you would have to view the person as two separate objects - which isn't exactly normal. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Luka

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

Assuming the lashings effect the center of mass like steel-pushes or iron-pulls in allomancy, opposite forces just cancel each other, so you would not be ripped apart. Might be that surgebinding is a bit more variable in use, so if you imagined the lashings right you could lash the head in one direction (attachment of force in heads center of mass) and the torso in the other direction. After all, Szeth was able to lash single stones of a wall in the prologue of WoK. Lashings attached to two different points of a body could rip the body apart, though that definitely would not happen when a surgebinder lashes himself partially.

The only instances we see of Szeth Lashing something connected to a larger peice is the Balcony in the opening, and that is arguably an entity of its own in the Cognitive Realm as it is a named idea.

In the instance of the block in the opening, and the hole in the roof in his interlude where Mr. T's faction gains his oathstone, he cut the stone before lashing. He created a physical separation. 

Because of that, I think the barrier to this is a purely cognitive idea. Even if the physical separation is unneeded, the ability to think of the item as separate seems likely to be necessary. And in the case of a person, I think despite the mental gymnastics needed to lash their individual body parts, your going to run into interference because they think of themselves as whole. 

So, I don't know, I'd guess it not impossible by the bounds of the powers, but considering the natures of the Spren who give gravitation, you may not be able to keep to your oaths if you're mentally unstable enough to perform it. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Calderis

[Deldraedair]

Thanks guys! I guess those ideas make sense. Another point though is if you consider someones spirit. A lashing effects the spiritual bond, and an object/person can only have one spirit (the literal human soul, or the cognitive identity) so I don't think it would ever be possible to even single out a single part of a persons body.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Szeth did a half lashing to a table in WoK I-9. It made the table weightless as half of its weight was pulled up. He pointed that fact out as it let him kick said table at a Shardbearer with little effort.

I also believe he does a quarter lashing to himself in that same chapter to arc a jump straight over the Shardbearer's swing. If memory serves, He leapt nearly 9 feet into the air.

So we have precedence of lashing fractions of an object's mass without any adverse effects on the object/person.

If half lashings are in opposite directions(north and south for example), they cancel out and the object essentially becomes weightless. If they are not opposite (say half North and half west) the target should drift along the middle (northwest)

A quarter lashing cancels out half of the objects weight while still letting gravity do its job (kind of like walking on the moon)

[Calderis he/him]

10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Szeth did a half lashing to a table in WoK I-9. It made the table weightless as half of its weight was pulled up. He pointed that fact out as it let him kick said table at a Shardbearer with little effort.

I also believe he does a quarter lashing to himself in that same chapter to arc a jump straight over the Shardbearer's swing. If memory serves, He leapt nearly 9 feet into the air.

So we have precedence of lashing fractions of an object's mass without any adverse effects on the object/person.

If half lashings are in opposite directions(north and south for example), they cancel out and the object essentially becomes weightless. If they are not opposite (say half North and half west) the target should drift along the middle (northwest)

A quarter lashing cancels out half of the objects weight while still letting gravity do its job (kind of like walking on the moon)

When Kaladin flies over the shattered plans, he also does a partial lashing to hold himself at the same altitude.

12 hours ago, Deldraedair said:

Thanks guys! I guess those ideas make sense. Another point though is if you consider someones spirit. A lashing effects the spiritual bond, and an object/person can only have one spirit (the literal human soul, or the cognitive identity) so I don't think it would ever be possible to even single out a single part of a persons body.

That is precisely what I meant by interference when attempting it on a living thing. 

[Pattern he/him]

A shardblade cuts the "soul", the cut can be healed. So while the soul is cut, there would be two parts (it's a strange concept, perhaps the soul just retracts from a cut part and extends back when healed). Here comes to mind the talk about the soul of body- and vegetable-parts in a Kaladin flashback, though there might be some local superstition involved. Roshar has no real understanding of realmatics after all, so in-world information has to be treated carefully. Even a scholar like Jasnah has some opinions which contradict our understanding of realmatics and the cosmere in general.

I don't see a reason why it should be impossible to separate body parts with lashing, though it would be very difficult and unfeasible (use the shardblade for Honor's sake...)

With enough stormlight, the Investiture of a soul should be able to be overcome: the bandits probably didn't "want" to become smoke, flame and crystal either, when Jasnah soulcast them. This is another surge though, so it might be it's not possible to damage the soul of a living person with lashing and the whole person would be lashed in two directions, the lashings canceling each other. For the wall it's possible to lash separate parts, but the wall has no living soul, just a cognitive representation.(edited and corrected my first post - necessity arises when you answer quickly without book at hand)

Question is wether or not Highspren or Honorspren would permit such a use of the surge. Using an honorblade removes that obstacle.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Pattern

[ccstat he/him]

On 3/17/2017 at 2:59 AM, Pattern said:

Assuming the lashings effect the center of mass like steel-pushes or iron-pulls in allomancy, opposite forces just cancel each other, so you would not be ripped apart. Might be that surgebinding is a bit more variable in use, so if you imagined the lashings right you could lash the head in one direction (attachment of force in heads center of mass) and the torso in the other direction.

The comparison to allomancy is useful. Most allomancers are only able to push or pull against an object's center of mass, but very skilled or experienced ones (Kelsier, primarily) have demonstrated the ability to push/pull on individual parts of an object to apply torque or to refine their aim. I suspect lashing is similar: the default is center-of-mass only, but with enough practice you could learn to accomplish more intricate feats.

One allomancy correction, though (very minor Mistborn spoiler):

Spoiler

Opposite forces in allomancy don't simply cancel each other out. Two opposing steelpushes crush a coin between Vin and Kelsier. Later, when Vin uses two pushes or pulls in opposite directions, she flares pewter to keep from being crushed or ripped apart.

 

[Pattern he/him]

3 minutes ago, ccstat said:

One allomancy correction, though (very minor Mistborn spoiler):

The allomancy was intended as a comparison, pushes and pulls there are external forces and the crushing example shows that they don't really work at the center of mass, only the direction of the force points to or from the allomancer's center of mass. Otherwise deforming would not occur. In real-world physics external forces attach at a point on the surface of an object, so when two opposite forces push on an object, a real body deforms, depending on the points the forces attach to and the form and material of the body.

If we take gravitation, each subatomic particle is affected equally in a homogeneous field. For simplicity we leave out tidal forces in an inhomogeneous field. Lashing is supposed to imitate /affect the gravitational force, so it should work on every atom of the lashed object/body. That is, two opposite lashings might deform single atoms, but not the body itself. To get ripping effects, you would need A LOT of lashings, essentially making gravitational forces stronger than the electromagnetic forces holding together the atoms.

Now there stays the problem with body parts, seen as separate objects. The soul might be a real problem, making lashings of bodyparts in different directions impossible. Or not - I don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion there.

[Krandacth]

I like the comparison that has been made to Jasnah soulcasting the ruffians: the person's perception of themselves is strongly that of a single person, and their spiritual connection to their body is very strong. It presumably takes a lot of investiture and a strong opposing view/will to overcome those two obstacles.

Soulcasting a person into something not a person is the obvious example of such a feat. It would presumably take similar resources, however, to affect different parts of what is so strongly perceived and felt to be a single entity.

However, as Jasnah has the mindset of authority, which allows her to so easily bend those around her to her will in (apparently) both the Physical and Cognitive Realm, Kaladin has the mind of a surgeon that allows him to clearly visualise people as the parts that make them up*: if anyone could pull off such a grizzly use of Gravitation, he could.

*Whilst he doesn't often view people so mechanically, there is a notable internal monologue in WoK, after the fateful sidecarry, where he wonders what people are, then describes them as (paraphrased), "a layer of bone, a layer of muscle, a layer of fat and a layer of skin." Such a man has it in him to easily visualise the different parts of the human body as isolated, and so affect them separately.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Krandacth

[Datan Nomlibash]

If you did a bind lashing on two items and attached one to a persons upper body and one to their lower body then lashed the objects in different directions multiple times you could probably rip someone in half, or at least make a big mess depending on how the body reacts to the forces. Just my two cents.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Datan Nomlibash
Typo

[BlackYeti he/him]

I seem to recall having a discussion with @Pathfinder a few years ago regarding this very issue. Here we go:

I still maintain my position from that time: the forces would cancel each other out, leaving the Radiant weightless, unless they could lash different parts of the body in opposite directions. I find it interesting though that this appears to be the majority position this time around. 

[Farnsworth]

What if the Radiant sees the body as two separate pieces? Would that rip it in half?

[+Extesian he/him]

I completely agree with @Pattern, gravity is not a strong enough fundamental force to break apart bonds between molecules. And even if you used an insane amount of Stormlight to do it (better just to use someone Werth the division surge I imagine) I think the cognitive association of a body as being a single unit would prevent lashings from being applied to separate parts of it. A crazy Mistborn may be able to push on trace metals in different parts of the body to achieve this but I don't feel that the gravity surge, which is about reassigning the gravitational bond with an object, would do this. 

[Calderis he/him]

For a Windrunner, I think the easiest way to achieve this using only their powers would be to use adhesion to stick two items to someone, and then lash those in different directions. 

[Darkness he/him]

It could be illuminating to ask Brandon if Szeth would have needed less Stormlight if the stone in the Veden King's wall had been placed recently.