Bonding dead spren

[sir sprenalot]

Hi folks, 

Haven't seen any speculation on this thus far, which doesn't say much here, but here it goes.

We understand that spren "live a little" when they are synced up to the heartbeat of the person bearing them. Let's say Adolin begins living the ideals of the spren he is bearing, could he bring the spren back to life and become a proto radiant?

It just seems that Brandon really made a point of him talking to his sword...

[geralt]

Adolin reviving his shardblade is actually one of the most popular theories around and I'm pretty sure there's a WoB in which it's confirmed that it's possible to do that, but it's incredibly hard/rare. 

As for the hints that point to that, other than him talking to the blade a lot, there's also the fact that towards the end of WoR Adolin stops feeling the Thrill, just like Dalinar did when he started the process of becoming a radiant. I've also read some theories that state he's already been able to hear the spren (specifically when Szeth is about to attack him in the final battle), but I'm not quite sure about that. Still, there's definitely something going on there, but maybe Brandon is just messing with us and he'll take Adolin in the opposite route, as in making him join the dark side...

Either way, his arc should definitely be interesting

[Blightsong he/him]

The dead Shardblades always live a little, they are just in a cycle of agony after being trapped in the physical realm.

Brandon has said that it is possible to revive a dead blade, but that it is very very difficult without its original Radiant.

Seeing as how you're new here and probably don't know, we have a really good resource for finding answers to questions called Theoryland. It's a site that hosts all questions Brandon has answered that we have, check it out if you have anymore questions.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Blightsong

[BlackYeti he/him]

Hi, and welcome to the forums!

As stated above, this is actually a very popular theory, here's just a few examples if you want to see what people are saying about it:

 

[Elena she/her]

I just saw someone speculating on reddit a way to revive a dead spren/Shardblade based on that scene in WOR where Kaladin touches Relis Ruthar's blade and they can both hear the screams of the spren trapped inside, Kal because he's a Radiant and Relis because Kaladin acted as a sort of 'channel'. I remember the OP of that particular post speculating whether that could be a method used to revive a spren/blade: a Radiant acting as a sort of 'bridge' for someone else to contact the spren and potentially bring it back. And if someone can be said to have a special connection to their Blade, that's definitely Adolin.

[sir sprenalot]

Bahaha, 

This is awesome. Thanks everyone!

[+Extesian he/him]

Apologies to @BlackYeti if this is in one of the shared threads, but here's a WoB explaining it's possible but very difficult as normally you would need the original oathbreaker to do so.

Quote

QUESTION

Cool. I’m not going to bother asking who did right now. With Syl being able to be revived, is Adolin ever going to be able to revive his own blade, or-

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ah, that would be very difficult, as the orig-, in most cases, the original person who broke the oaths has to be the one.

Source

 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

I'm not sure the whole 

Spoiler

Being a murderer thing

Will let the spren come to life.. life before death

[BlackYeti he/him]

9 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I'm not sure the whole 

  Reveal hidden contents

Being a murderer thing

Will let the spren come to life.. life before death

Really, it depends on the Order. A couple of relevant WoBs:

Quote

JERICH ()

Are there radiant orders that would take someone like Adolin even after what he does at the end of Words of Radiant?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

Brandon: I am not going to say whether or not Adolin will become a Knights Radiant, but yes, there are several orders that would be very happy with what he did. Me: Like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers? Brandon: The Skybreakers would probably not want him because he broke a law, but there are other orders that would think he completely did the right thing and be very happy with him. Trickonometry (who was waiting in line behind me): Like the Dustbringers? Brandon: (Didn't say anything but looked up at him, smiled and half nodded)

FOOTNOTE

This question refers to Adolin's slaying of Sadeas.

 

source

Quote

SWEETNESS

What would the Willshapers think about Adolin killing Sadeas?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Willshapers would probably be ok with that.

 

source

Adolin's Shardblade was an Edgedancer spren, so it really depends on what the Edgedancers would have thought of it.

[maxal she/her]

@Radiant_Jaeger: You do not need to put comment on Adolin murdering Sadeas within spoilers. It isn't a spoiler on this sub.

This being said, I would point out Jasnah brutally murders thugs in an alleyway, even slaughtering running men. Brandon qualified this action are more dark than Adolin murdering Sadeas and yet she gets to be a Radiant.

Quote

QUESTION

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.

Shallan also murdered both her parents and while it could be argued it was self-defense, it could also be argued the strangulation combined with the creepy lullaby wasn't necessary.

Kaladin has harbored feelings of hate, anger and also killed many people within the wars.

Dalinar is a former warlord who was just plain horrible.

Spoiler for Oathbringer

Spoiler

Dalinar used to be so wrapped up in the thrill, he slaughtered even his own men. He caused the death of nearly all of his elite by being a foolish idiot and he run mad wanting to slay his brother out of jealousy.

Seriously, the Radiants aren't picture perfect rainbow pissing angels. Adolin has single-handily perhaps done more good than most Radiants and he isn't one of them, so there are definitely orders who would be pleased by him.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by maxal

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

I'm interested to see if there are more morally gray ideals of other Radiant Orders

Edited April 26, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[+Extesian he/him]

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I'm interested to see if there are more morally gray ideals of other Radiant Orders

Here's some interesting WoBs

Quote

ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

QUESTION

As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

Source

Quote

QUESTION

If Kelsier had been born on Roshar, would he have become a Knight Radiant and if so, which order?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I think there’s a possibility that some of the orders might want him, but it really depends on which period he was born in, and what he’s up to, because Kelsier has this dark streak in him and he could go villain very easily, depending on what’s going on with him. That’s kind of how I view Kelsier’s primary attribute, if channeled correctly he’s a great force for good, but he’s like right on the line.

Source

 

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I'm interested to see if there are more morally gray ideals of other Radiant Orders

Gray is a wide term. I would say each order seems to have different interpretation of what is a "journey" and what is a "destination".

You might say Adolin murdering Sadeas was putting the destination before the journey and if your spren is a honorspren, the she is likely to agree. You could however come up with the opposite reasoning in saying Adolin's actions are just the beginning of the journey for him as they mark the moment where he breaks from his father's expectations and allows the true him, the highly moral him who might believes in honor, but isn't ready to watch innocent die for it, to shine. A lot of his character has been about him putting up a front in front of people which means those events could be interpreted as a journey. Say if your spren is an Edgedancer spren, saving prostitutes, staying in prison for a darkeyed and killing a dangerous thread might just be one fine journey.

Typically, as a rule of thumb, it is admitted Cultivation aligned sprens are more "moral" than "honorable". They will prone actions which are right, but might not be honorable and/or lawful: see Jasnah and Shallan.

[Krandacth]

Just to add to the list of linked discussion on this topic, I had a theory ages ago that suggests the mechanics by which a blade could be revived, linked to the WoB cited by @Extesian (link to relevant post):

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55834-whats-in-it-for-the-spren/?do=findComment&comment=483731

Edited April 26, 2017 by Krandacth

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Gray is a wide term. I would say each order seems to have different interpretation of what is a "journey" and what is a "destination".

You might say Adolin murdering Sadeas was putting the destination before the journey and if your spren is a honorspren, the she is likely to agree. You could however come up with the opposite reasoning in saying Adolin's actions are just the beginning of the journey for him as they mark the moment where he breaks from his father's expectations and allows the true him, the highly moral him who might believes in honor, but isn't ready to watch innocent die for it, to shine. A lot of his character has been about him putting up a front in front of people which means those events could be interpreted as a journey. Say if your spren is an Edgedancer spren, saving prostitutes, staying in prison for a darkeyed and killing a dangerous thread might just be one fine journey.

Typically, as a rule of thumb, it is admitted Cultivation aligned sprens are more "moral" than "honorable". They will prone actions which are right, but might not be honorable and/or lawful: see Jasnah and Shallan.

So if Dustbringers don't act with very much morals or very much honor is it possible that before Odium went fully bad... (Assuming there was such a time in his existence) He contributed to the KR? Like the Elsecallers, Dustbringers, but no... because Tanavast gave the honorblades to men. Which confuses me on why Cultivationspren sought to replicate a gift of Honor. Strong allies perhaps?
Could their be a righteous anger spren that represents the Dustbringers? A Furyspren, or would that inherently be of Odium and thus a voidspren....but we know

Spoiler

 

that Odium is a "Splinter of God's own divine anger without context"

 

I'd love to see a D&D type alignment for each of the Radiants I imagine Skybreakers would fall into Lawful evil. Honorspren might be Chaotic good lol..

 

As for the various Order's interpretation of the first Ideal, I think you're onto something, but I do you think Szeth will be able to execute unlawful people? Or will he bound by a literal interpretation of the first ideal. Also, who's Szeth's spren?!

Spoiler

And will they be jealous of nightblood!?

Now I am officially rambling...

[maxal she/her]

@Radiant_Jaeger: We do not know much about the Dustbringers but, just like other orders, they are a mixture of both Cultivation and Honor. We thus have no ground basis to state they are of Odium. There attributes being brave and obedient, we can assume those sprens might be looking for those always willing to spontaneously face their fears. For instance, when Kaladin stick himself to Storm-something (the storm, I forgot the name ), he wasn't just meeting up Adolin's challenge, he was facing his fear of the animal. This might actually the sort of behavior sprens are looking for into proto-Dustbringers. I imagine they would be quite like the Dauntless in Divergence, always trying to be brave, to go faster, farther, but at the same time, being able to follow precise orders in order to fulfill missions. As for their "righteous anger", I would think it might be because other gave them a bad reputation: those always ready to face all dangers might come across as anti-social or maybe others were just jealous. It is said they hated the name Dustbringer because they felt it linked them too closely to Voidbringers, hence they preferred Releasers. It seems they were touchy on it which tells me they were resolutely good, but misunderstood. 

I picture them as the dark knights of the Radiants, the special forces, the ones you send whenever you have a dangerous mission to fulfill.

I personally think D&D alignment are too restrictive to be used to classify characters, especially full orders. Not all members of a given order will be identical to the next: they are individuals, not clones.

As for Szeth, well, he seems to be looking for a higher law, one not made by men as men can twist laws and make it unfair, unlawful even. So this is still up to grab.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

@Radiant_Jaeger: We do not know much about the Dustbringers but, just like other orders, they are a mixture of both Cultivation and Honor. We thus have no ground basis to state they are of Odium. There attributes being brave and obedient, we can assume those sprens might be looking for those always willing to spontaneously face their fears. For instance, when Kaladin stick himself to Storm-something (the storm, I forgot the name ), he wasn't just meeting up Adolin's challenge, he was facing his fear of the animal. This might actually the sort of behavior sprens are looking for into proto-Dustbringers. I imagine they would be quite like the Dauntless in Divergence, always trying to be brave, to go faster, farther, but at the same time, being able to follow precise orders in order to fulfill missions. As for their "righteous anger", I would think it might be because other gave them a bad reputation: those always ready to face all dangers might come across as anti-social or maybe others were just jealous. It is said they hated the name Dustbringer because they felt it linked them too closely to Voidbringers, hence they preferred Releasers. It seems they were touchy on it which tells me they were resolutely good, but misunderstood. 

I picture them as the dark knights of the Radiants, the special forces, the ones you send whenever you have a dangerous mission to fulfill.

I personally think D&D alignment are too restrictive to be used to classify characters, especially full orders. Not all members of a given order will be identical to the next: they are individuals, not clones.

As for Szeth, well, he seems to be looking for a higher law, one not made by men as men can twist laws and make it unfair, unlawful even. So this is still up to grab.

What a philosopher! damnation! That specia forces comparison kicked chull.