Theory - What was Unmade?

[Jace21 he/him]

Good Evening Everyone!
 

I have seen quite a bit of chatter on the forum recently about the Unmade, Dawnsingers and Dawnshards, with various people speculating and theorising their nature, origin etc.

This has inspired me to finally publicise a pet theory of mine that I have been sitting on for while.

This is my first time posting a theory and only my 20th or so post on the Shard so please bear with me if there are any formatting errors or its difficult to follow. There may be some slight cosmere spoilers, but I think it is fine to be posted here. If not then can I am sure a Mod will move it.

Well here goes!

Summary

The mysterious Unmade were originally the group known as the Dawnsingers, before being corrupted by Odium.

There is actually or lot more involved but that is the basis of it.

Evidence

Okay, so here is where it gets a bit complicated. Hopefully this will make sense and not just be a hot mess. I have spoilered quotes from the books and WoB for length.

Firstly I would like to propose a rough sequence of events in Rosharan History as follows.

1. Adonalsium creates Roshar.
2. Honour and Cultivation arrive on Roshar.
3. Odium arrives in the Greater Roshar System.
4. The Desolations begin.
5. The final Desolation, Aharietiam occurs, 9 Heralds abandon mankind.
6. Present day Roshar.

As far as I am aware the above is correct to the best of our knowledge, and most is explicitly stated in the books. But here is where it starts to get interesting.

Humans do not seem to be native to Roshar, this is supported by in-world myths such as the Iriali Long Trail and the Vorin Tranquiline Halls. It is also supported by their physiology, Humans do not look native to Roshar, they have no carapace. This is extremely odd as basically every other form of animal life we see has carapace of some kind. Shinovar and animals living their are the main exceptions. It seems likely that the first humans to arrive on Roshar post-shattering either arrived with the Shards or were created by them soon after their arrival.

Listeners / Parshendi almost certainly are native to Roshar. they seem to predate the Shards arrival on Roshar at the very least, backed up by the below WoB.

Spoiler

•  

  QUESTION

  Are the Parshendi of Odium?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Not originally.

• QUESTION

  Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Not originally.

  QUESTION

• Are the Parshendi of Honor?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  No.

Now then, another race or group said to predate humans on Roshar are the Dawnsingers. We don't have very much information on them, the main time they are spoken of being the below exchange between Kabal and Shallan in WoK, emphasis mine.

Spoiler

“What about the Dawnsingers?” Shallan asked.

“What about them?”

“Could they have created it?”

He chuckled as they arrived at the lift. “That isn’t the kind of thing the Dawnsingers did. They were healers, kindly spren sent by the Almighty to care for humans once we were forced out of the Tranquiline Halls.”

“Kind of like the opposite of the Voidbringers.”

“I suppose you could say that.”

Now then, this is far from conclusive, but the in-world opinion seems to be that the Dawnsingers are "kindly spren" who look after the poor humans after their arrival on Roshar. In WoR Dalinar muses that the Dawnsingers supposedly helped to found the Dawncities, consistent with the idea of kindly spren helping out the new arrivals.

I propose that the Dawsingers were indeed a group of Adonalsium-spren, more powerful than your average spren, though probably less than stormfather level. Along with other powerful Adonalsium-spren such as the Rider of Storms/ Stormfather, these constituted the Listener Gods.

So I believe Humans, Listeners and Spren lived together on Roshar with no major problems until Odium arrived. Upon his arrival he realised he was bound to the system and began the cycle of desolations. To do this he needed servants to fight for him. Most of these I believe are just regular odium-spren. However the very name of the Unmade seems to assume they were once something else. As Honour and Cultivation were both alive at this point, I doubt Odium was able to influence any creation of theres to such a degree, but something of Adonalsium would be differnent. Since Odium was part of the Adonalsium it stands to reason he can more easily affect an Adonalsium-spren than a spren that is 100% honour and/or cultivation.

We already assume that changing spren in this way is possible as something similar happened to the Stormfather and possibly the Nightwatcher. I think that in his search for minions, Odium corrupted the largest group of powerful beings that were vulnerable to his influence, the Dawnsingers. I think this is foreshadowed in the Kabsal/Shallan conversation.

Spoiler

He chuckled as they arrived at the lift. “That isn’t the kind of thing the Dawnsingers did. They were healers, kindly spren sent by the Almighty to care for humans once we were forced out of the Tranquiline Halls.”

“Kind of like the opposite of the Voidbringers.”

“I suppose you could say that.”

The in-world definition of Voidbringer is quite generic and poorly defined. Having said that, a Voidbringer almost certainly has to relate to Odium. To switch the earlier comparison by Shallan and Kabsal, some kind of "Voidbringer" would be the opposite of a Dawnsinger.

Now we also don't really have much information on the nature of the Unmade. However we have the below quote from Taravangian in WoR regarding Nergaoul, one of the Unmade

Spoiler

“I agree,” she said. “It gives us a further reference point. The Thrill is at least as strong here as it is in Alethkar. Maybe stronger. I will speak to our scholars. Perhaps this will help pinpoint Nergaoul.”

Do not spend too much effort on that,” Taravangian said, approaching another group of Veden soldiers. “I’m not sure what we would even do if we found the thing.” An ancient, evil spren was not something he had the resources to tackle. Not yet at least.

Now to me, "Unmade" implies that they are VERY different to whatever they were before.

If this is the case then what would be the opposite of "an ancient, evil spren"? Wouldn't it be an ancient (adonalsium) spren described as "healers, kindly spren"? 

I think yes, it would.

Once many spren began bonding with Humans and granted surges, the Listeners felt betrayed. It is speculated that because of this they changed to new gods, the Unmade. This makes even more sense if you consider that if I am correct, the Unmade used to be a part of the very spren the Listeners once worshipped.

The music link is also there. The listeners are sensitive to their rhythms, using them to convey mood and subtext to their conversations. It makes sense they would be drawn to beings that, as well as offering them power to fight the humans with, were also somehow related to music.

 

I feel like as this post has dragged on it has become less coherent and more rambling and I am sure I've missed some point and some evidence out so I may edit it later but for now that's it.

I am unaware of any WoBs or previous threads that might disprove this, but please, rip it apart 

 

[Calderis he/him]

My brain keeps trying to combine the Dawnshards and the Dawnsingers, but maybe this is a better avenue than the Dawnshard origin I've been considering.

I like it. 

[+Extesian he/him]

I like it @Jace21. Great first theory. I'm not convinced but only because with existing evidence it's hard to be convinced. I still have other possibilities in my head but it's well thought through. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

They are splinters of odium... I guess its possible he splintered to corrupt them? 

[Jace21 he/him]

13 minutes ago, The Flash said:

They are splinters of odium... I guess its possible he splintered to corrupt them? 

Yeah I think he must have done somehow.

It just doesnt seem to make sense that they are "Unmade" if they have been splinters for their entire existence.

However if they are Adonalsium spren as I think, they would already have some odium-investiture, the same as they would of the other 16. It diesnt seem too much of a stretch for him to use that and strengthen it somehow to make then his splinters, rather than Adanolasiums.

I think something similar happened with the Stormfather/ Honour and Nightwatcher/ Cultivation.

There are definitely other possibilities for all aspects of the theory, there is too little evidence for anything to be defnitive. This just seems to fit to me.

As for the Dawnshards I think they are related only by name and possibly some type of relationship to adonalsium but I'm not sure. I've seen the dawnsinger = dawnshard or listener bonded with dawnshard but it just doesnt seem to make sense to me. Dawnshards seem more like objects than spren.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jace21
Dawnshard stuff added

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Jace21 said:

Yeah I think he must have done somehow.

It just doesnt seem to make sense that they are "Unmade" if they have been splinters for their entire existence.

However if they are Adonalsium spren as I think, they would already have some odium-investiture, the same as they would of the other 16. It diesnt seem too much of a stretch for him to use that and strengthen it somehow to make then his splinters, rather than Adanolasiums.

I think something similar happened with the Stormfather/ Honour and Nightwatcher/ Cultivation.

There are definitely other possibilities for all aspects of the theory, there is too little evidence for anything to be defnitive. This just seems to fit to me.

Yeah it makes sense. An upvote for you. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Not sure if I necessarily agree with this theory, since I don't like the idea that something being corrupted by Odium could count as a Splinter of Odium, but I only have one WoB of any note.

Quote

[–]bridge4shash 3 points 2 years ago 

Were the Plains originally shattered by a Dawnsinger? Are Dawnshard magical musical instruments? Are the Parshendi of Odium? Are the gods that the Parshendi abandoned Odium? Are the people above in Sixth of the Dusk Scadrians?

[–]mistborn[S] 7 points 2 years ago 

That's a whole pile of RAFOs. But I can answer one; the gods that the Parshendi abandoned are of Odium.

If you follow the idea that the Parshendi Gods are the Unmade, then my above statement about whether corrupting=splinters comes into play with the bold statement.

Otherwise, you've written this well. Nice job

[Jace21 he/him]

Absolutely right, I'm not 100% sold on them being abIe to be splinters if they are corrupted adonalsium spren.

Aside from the posibility of Odium splitering himself to enhance just 1 of 16 facets to their investiture, the odium part, all I really have to go on is the name.

I struggle to think of reasons they would be "unmade" if they have always been splinters of odium.

I dont mind the WoB as I agree they are now "of odium" but the splinter thing is definitely the weakness of the theory, I just dont believe it to be insurmountable 

And thank you!

[Calderis he/him]

46 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not sure if I necessarily agree with this theory, since I don't like the idea that something being corrupted by Odium could count as a Splinter of Odium

I look at it this way, as a Semantic issue. 

Take the Returned. They are arguably a Splinter of Endowment. They are living and breathing because they contain a splinter, and so being a splinter could be argued either way. They are most definitely of Endowment though. 

So if a preexisting entity was corrupted and turned to Serve Odium by a portion of Odium's power large enough to be the driving force of said entity's will, they could be considered both a Splinter and of Odium. 

I personally think Odium would prefer this route, as corrupting an existing entity would cost him less power relatively than just creating a being of equal power. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I look at it this way, as a Semantic issue. 

Take the Returned. They are arguably a Splinter of Endowment. They are living and breathing because they contain a splinter, and so being a splinter could be argued either way. They are most definitely of Endowment though. 

So if a preexisting entity was corrupted and turned to Serve Odium by a portion of Odium's power large enough to be the driving force of said entity's will, they could be considered both a Splinter and of Odium. 

I personally think Odium would prefer this route, as corrupting an existing entity would cost him less power relatively than just creating a being of equal power. 

The problem with equating it to the Returned is that I don't feel they are an equivalent to Spren before they become a Splinter of Endowment.

Most entities on Roshar would be composed entirely of Investiture, and I would put the Unmade in this category so that they can affect/reach all sides of Roshar without needing a physical body like Returned. I don't think a living entity made of Investiture is on the same level as a dead body connected to a soul with a fragile tether. I suppose it could also be semantics, but at least I've made my opinion on this clearer now.

[Jace21 he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

The problem with equating it to the Returned is that I don't feel they are an equivalent to Spren before they become a Splinter of Endowment.

I see where you're coming from, even if I lean towards the explanation proposed by Calderis and in my theory.

My issue in defining it stems from the fact different splinters can be so different from each other.

Elantris spoiler

Spoiler

How about Seons? They are much more spren-like but unless I am mistaken, it is only their core Aon that is a splinter, so there must be something else there

What are people thoughts about the Stormfather?

It seems generally accepted he was on the planet before Honour and Cultivation. Yet even before he merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow, he had nahel bonded before, I believe we have a WoB on that.

Is he a poweful adonalsium spren somehow capable of granting access to Honour/Cultivations magic system? 

Or was he somehow modfied by Honour before being able to grant surgebinding?

Or something else entirely?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jace21

[Krandacth]

7 hours ago, Jace21 said:

I see where you're coming from, even if I lean towards the explanation proposed by Calderis and in my theory.

My issue in defining it stems from the fact different splinters can be so different from each other.

Elantris spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

How about Seons? They are much more spren-like but unless I am mistaken, it is only their core Aon that is a splinter, so there must be something else there

What are people thoughts about the Stormfather?

It seems generally accepted he was on the planet before Honour and Cultivation. Yet even before he merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow, he had nahel bonded before, I believe we have a WoB on that.

Is he a poweful adonalsium spren somehow capable of granting access to Honour/Cultivations magic system? 

Or was he somehow modfied by Honour before being able to grant surgebinding?

Or something else entirely?

IIRC, each underlying magic system is more a function of the planet than the Shard, though the Shard shapes the means by which it is accessed. For examples:

* Bonding Spren to enhance oneself and access surges (if in much more minor/limited ways) is a feature of most fauna native to Roshar (from Greatshells to Listeners), Honor just granted access to surges in a more major way, by the speaking of oaths, reflecting his intent.

* Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Both Shards on Scadrial had God metals, and the focus of all systems is metals, though access to the systems are granted differently by both Preservation and Ruin, in a manner in line with their intents.

* Elantris/Emporer's Soul spoilers

Spoiler

The focus on Sel is shapes, though there are many different means of producing those shapes, depending on the Shard (AeonDor, Soul Stamps, ChayShan, whatever they practice in Dakhor).

Therefore there is no reason a non-Honor Spren can't be utilised via Honor's magic system, because it will already be part of what underpins the system (this is how Cultivationspren can be bound and grant oaths, despite the system being clearly of Honour).

[Jace21 he/him]

2 hours ago, Krandacth said:

IIRC, each underlying magic system is more a function of the planet than the Shard, though the Shard shapes the means by which it is accessed. For examples:

* Bonding Spren to enhance oneself and access surges (if in much more minor/limited ways) is a feature of most fauna native to Roshar (from Greatshells to Listeners), Honor just granted access to surges in a more major way, by the speaking of oaths, reflecting his intent.

* Mistborn spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Both Shards on Scadrial had God metals, and the focus of all systems is metals, though access to the systems are granted differently by both Preservation and Ruin, in a manner in line with their intents.

* Elantris/Emporer's Soul spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

The focus on Sel is shapes, though there are many different means of producing those shapes, depending on the Shard (AeonDor, Soul Stamps, ChayShan, whatever they practice in Dakhor).

Therefore there is no reason a non-Honor Spren can't be utilised via Honor's magic system, because it will already be part of what underpins the system (this is how Cultivationspren can be bound and grant oaths, despite the system being clearly of Honour).

As far as I am aware the idea that greatshells bonds with their spren grant limited access to surges is just a theory. I like it but I havent seen any WoB to say it is fact.

On the point if the Stormfather forming a Nahel bond, I may not have been clear. 

I am aware that each planet has a focus and 1 shards system can be powered using the investiture of another. 

Mistborn spoilers below

Spoiler

The point I wanted to make is that so far, we have only really seen this on Scadrial and while you could use Ruins investiture (atium) for allomancy, the ability it gave was different to any already in the magic system

So while I accept that a splinter/spren of any non-honour or non-cultivation shard could form a nahel bond I would expect the abilities granted to be different. 

The following WoB seems to support this.

 Elantris spoilers

Spoiler

• INTERVIEW: Mar 20th, 2014
• WOR Signing Report - IronCaf(Paraphrased)

  OUTIS

  If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

For the stormfather this is clearly not the case as the surges granted to bondsmiths are shared by other orders.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Jace21

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 hours ago, Jace21 said:

For the Stormfather this is clearly not the case as the surges granted to Bondsmiths are shared by other orders.

Thanks to the WoB in your Elantris Spoiler tag, I get what you are asking, and I may have an answer: We know that Highstorms and Stormlight existed before Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar, while Surgebinding did not exist back then. Honor then co-opted the Storms, so perhaps he did something similar to the Stormfather, maybe even as an unintended consequence of co-opting the Highstorms(he was the "Rider of the Storms" after all and Eshonai didn't seem all that shocked that he spoke in the storm when she changed forms.)

If he was tied to the storms in some way, the way Windspren correlate to wind, he'd be a Highstorm Spren or some such. Perhaps when Honor took over the storms, he also made some bond with the Stormfather. Now that I think about it, that bond might have been how Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow was able to merge with the Stormfather when Honor died.

Edited June 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects
forgot to prepend a "perhaps," opinions are not facts

[Jace21 he/him]

Exactly, I think there have been 3 "versions" of the Stormfather, for want of a better phrase.

1. Rider of the Storms - Pre-Shards

2. Stormfather affiliated with Honour and a bondsmith-spren

3. As above, now merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow

My proposal is that whatever Honour did to cause stage 2, was the same process Odium used to corrupt Dawnsingers.

1. Adonalsium spren - Pre-Shards

2 Spren affiliated with Odium, now called the Unmade

I guess the quesion would then be if the Stormfather was ever classified as splinter of Honour. 

If he was, the the Unmade can be splinters of Odium and the theory can work.

If not, then I need to rethink it.

Does that all make sense?

[ccstat he/him]

I'm still thinking about this idea, but I like it a lot. One thing that I like about your theory is the interpretation of what "unmade" could mean; but that's also a piece I'm really unsure of. There are a lot of different ways you could understand that word. Here are the main ones I've considered, and I don't think we have information to suggest which (if any) are right.

• Unmade = not made (i.e. occurring naturally / without design)
• Unmade = taken apart
• Unmade = defeated / corrupted (their purpose stolen)

Regarding the nature of the Unmade, I want to add the recent WoB from the June 9 FAQ Friday post, answering about a vessel voluntarily dropping a shard:

Quote

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up splintering and turning into something like spren/seons.  It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity.  It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual.

This makes me wonder if the Unmade are distinct from "Odium spren," or if Odium just exerts more direct control over his splinters.

The quote provided above by @FiveLate is also interesting.:

Quote

The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control...

...if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

The easiest interpretation there is that the spren-with-holes are operating the same way as the Unmade (or are the unmade), but that's not necessarily the case. Human-unmade interactions are hardly analogous to the listener-spren bond.