Harmony Question

[OneNastyChull he/him]

*Mistborn spoilers*

So with Harmony now containing all the investiture in Scandrial and giving up investiture to create humans, does a massive population increase reduce his powers of Preservation and make him more likely to lean towards Ruin? Given that he is retaining Ruin.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

I believer that Harmonium is part of the solution to this, since it is slightly balanced toward Ruin. See @Pagerunner for his excellent thread on it. But this question will be addressed in The Lost Metal, IIRC.

[OneNastyChull he/him]

Hey thanks crucible. That thread actually makes a lot of sense anoubt where the extra Ruin goes but now I wonder how many atoms, but more importantly electrons, of invested Preservation are in each human. I wonder if it's like the trace elements and salts in our body that help as the activators for a lot of proteins and/or catalysts reactions or if instead if it's of a "soul" nature.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

14 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Hey thanks crucible. That thread actually makes a lot of sense anoubt where the extra Ruin goes but now I wonder how many atoms, but more importantly electrons, of invested Preservation are in each human. I wonder if it's like the trace elements and salts in our body that help as the activators for a lot of proteins and/or catalysts reactions or if instead if it's of a "soul" nature.

I believe there was another WoB later in that thread that said it was more of a spiritual thing, with the soul of harmonium being in conflict with itself, which, when it touches water, allows for lots of Investiture to explode out, kind of like a nuclear reaction but with Investiture instead. I'll try to find it, but I'll summon @Calderis @Extesian @The One Who Connects to help me out if I can't. Give me like ten minutes.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I believe there was another WoB later in that thread that said it was more of a spiritual thing, with the soul of harmonium being in conflict with itself, which, when it touches water, allows for lots of Investiture to explode out, kind of like a nuclear reaction but with Investiture instead. I'll try to find it, but I'll summon @Calderis @Extesian @The One Who Connects to help me out if I can't. Give me like ten minutes.

Last post in Pagerunner's thread

Quote

[53:32]
Ironeyes: So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?
A: Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.
Ironeyes: So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...
A: Yes.
Ironeyes: So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion[unintelligible] metal, right?
A: Right, and...
Ironeyes: So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.
A: Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah.  But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the cosmere. And to Scadrial.
Ironeyes: So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.
A: I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a cosmere equivalent, to... I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right, matter, energy, Investiture, you have a third axis that you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more... that are controlled by me, right. But are built on this idea. So once you add [unintelligible for a few syllables] that matter can now exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Last post in Pagerunner's thread

 

Dang it, I'd just found it. Gotta be quicker next time. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

12 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Dang it, I'd just found it. Gotta be quicker next time. 

Crucible linked Pagerunner's thread in one of the answers here. Shortcut

9 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I know, I used that thread. I just couldn't remember where in the thread the WoB was.

If it's important to the topic and isn't in the OP, 8 out or 10 times, it'll be at the end. (Recent revelations type deals are either post 2 or final post)

Edited July 12, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Crucible linked Pagerunner's thread in one of the answers here. Shortcut

I know, I used that thread. I just couldn't remember where in the thread the WoB was.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Dang it, I'd just found it. Gotta be quicker next time. 

Or you could try to find it, and then summon us for help if you have trouble. 

We can't ninja, and you get to be the awesome one. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Or you could try to find it, and then summon us for help if you have trouble. 

We can't ninja, and you get to be the awesome one. 

........

Why am I so clueless? lol

[+hwiles He/Him]

On 7/12/2017 at 10:27 AM, OneNastyChull said:

*Mistborn spoilers*

So with Harmony now containing all the investiture in Scandrial and giving up investiture to create humans, does a massive population increase reduce his powers of Preservation and make him more likely to lean towards Ruin? Given that he is retaining Ruin.

Something to keep in mind is that Harmony doesn't hold two separate Shards, he holds one well blended Shard.  When Harmony picked up Ruin and Preservation, the two shards were equal in power; a chunk of Preservation was tied up in scadrians, and an equal chunk of Ruin was tied up in atium.  Following his ascension, it is my belief that scadrians are now born with a single small piece of Harmony, rather than a small piece of Preservation and a smaller piece of Ruin.  There's still some argument over this point; if I'm right, then no, a massive population increase would not cause an imbalance in Harmony's Investiture.  If I'm wrong, then yes, it could.  Sazed was able to pick up the two Shards because he possessed suitable Connection with them.  If the composition of his power changes significantly, it could greatly accelerate the rate at which the power consumes, warps, and erodes his personality; this is actually why Odium refuses to pick up the Shards he kills.

It's been hypothesized in-book that the Investiture released by burned atium takes approximately 300 years to coalesce back at its source (it hasn't been established if the character who said this was correct, so it technically remains a hypothesis); since Harmony shut down the Pits, the Investiture released from the atium burned in the final battle before Harmony's ascension should have finished returning to him by era 2.  Picking up this Investiture would cause him an imbalance if he held onto it, which is where pagerunner's theories on harmonium come into play.  However, during this time, all (minus like 3ish people) of the scadrians born before Harmony's ascension should have died, allowing their excess Preservation-Investiture to return to Harmony.

The question boils down to: Is Harmony able to unblend his Investiture to give each newborn scadrian more Preservation than Ruin, and if so, is he still doing it, or does each newborn scadrian just get a single piece of his blended Investiture (which, by my reckoning, ought to be almost equal parts Ruin and Preservation)?

Since allomancy is now powered by Harmony's Investiture rather than Preservation's, I argue that the souls of scadrians are now composed of Harmony's Investiture, rather than Preservation's and Ruins separate Investiture.

Note:  Some of Leras' (Preservation's) original Investiture should still be tied up in

1. The pieces of the souls of pre-Catacendre scadrians stored in hemalurgic spikes
2. The metalminds TLR stored compounded attributes in (they've almost certainly been melted-down/reworked, but some/all of the Investiture, which he got from the body of Preservation, should still be feruchemically stored in the metal.  It might be insignificant, but it also might not be)
3. Kelsier, Marsh, and possibly Spook and a handful of worldhoppers (their souls)
4. Any splinters that Kelsier wasn't able to gobble up when Ruin was shattering Preservation (It seems like he got them all, but you never know)

Meaning, Harmony should be slightly imbalanced towards Ruin these days.

[Calderis he/him]

@hwiles and we already know that Harmony altered Scadrians during the catacendre, when he removed the genetic differences between Skaa and noble, and changed the way snapping works. Changing the amount and source of the extra investiture in Scadrians was probably easy and natural, as Sazed's connection to both shards lies in his acceptance of both as natural and necessary forces. I'd imagine that in that same vein, he placed those forces in balance in the population. 

[OneNastyChull he/him]

Whoa ok so a couple questions these last replies made me think of: 

You said Spook's soul, are you implying that Spook is still alive? Or although Harmony reworked the humans (which Spook was definitely reworked via receiving full mistborn powers) that he didn't receive the added ruin adjustment? 

Btw I'm a little opposed to the idea that Harmony gave the humans equal amounts of Ruin and Preservation. Otherwise wouldn't personalities or at least goals change? It doesn't seem like the humans are different fundamentally (at least in that regard; I realize they are different physically in regards to no longer needing resistance to ash) and instead seem overall the same. Or do you believe they are exhibiting more of Ruins side? And if so how? Personally through the growth of civilization they seem anything but stagnant which is what I think they would be if they had equal amounts.

Or do you believe that the amount of investiture in the humans regardless of how much of either doesn't actually affect them on a personality level. From what lack of Breath does to drabs in WB I do believe that investiture affects personality. 

 

Expelling elemental Harmonium does seem like an amazing way to rid of the added effect of the atium  that was burned by the atium mistings but why would it be needed to be expelled at all at this point (and by this point I mean by the end of BoM) if Harmony has already ridden itself of the added atium unless he is also losing Preservation investiture somehow. Or is Allomancy pure Preservation? (For some reason I've always thought it was also Ruin but now I feel unconfident about that)

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

You said Spook's soul, are you implying that Spook is still alive? Or although Harmony reworked the humans (which Spook was definitely reworked via receiving full mistborn powers) that he didn't receive the added ruin adjustment? 

Due to Spook's involvement with Kel at the end of SH, Some people believe that Spook obtained the ability to use F-atium (or some other means) of extending his lifespan. I am not convinced. 

6 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Btw I'm a little opposed to the idea that Harmony gave the humans equal amounts of Ruin and Preservation. Otherwise wouldn't personalities or at least goals change? It doesn't seem like the humans are different fundamentally (at least in that regard; I realize they are different physically in regards to no longer needing resistance to ash) and instead seem overall the same. Or do you believe they are exhibiting more of Ruins side? And if so how? Personally through the growth of civilization they seem anything but stagnant which is what I think they would be if they had equal amounts.

Or do you believe that the amount of investiture in the humans regardless of how much of either doesn't actually affect them on a personality level. From what lack of Breath does to drabs in WB I do believe that investiture affects personality. 

Considering the nature of Preservation is to resist change for good or I'll, and that investiture was used to create dynamic life, I personally don't think the type matters once it's been integrated into a species. 

Drabs are different. Nalthis are born with a higher than normal amount of investiture. Once they lose their breath though, they are living with less than a normal human. The side effects of being a drab are due to lack of investiture, not lack of a specific type. (all my opinion obviously) 

[+hwiles He/Him]

@OneNastyChull Sorry, the idea that Spook is still alive is highly speculative.  He lived to be approximately 120 years old, then stepped down, as ruler of the basin.  That is...absurdly old...Kelsier enticed Spook into helping him investigate hemalurgy at the end of SH by mentioning that they could achieve immortality, so I subscribe to the belief that they're both still alive, but this is by absolutely no means confirmed.

My primary argument against the idea that Harmony imbues people with 2 parts Preservation and 1 part Ruin Investiture is that Ruin and Preservation no longer exist.  There is only Harmony.  If Harmony dies, he drops one Shard.

I don't think the source of the Investiture would have an affect on people's personalities.  After all, it's all just Investiture; if I take water from a natural spring and water condensed from the air, it's all just water.  Harmony doesn't confer his Intent to everything and everyone he touches.  I suppose I should stop myself before I try to delve too far into the realm of the theoretical; there are many sharders more qualified than I am who can weigh in better.  I subscribe to the belief that a population increase wouldn't unbalance Harmony...but...there are very intelligent people whom I know would disagree with me on this point.  

[+Extesian he/him]

@hwiles your thinking is interesting but it is predicated on Harmony now being one intermingled Shard, with the investiture from both Shards actually having intertwined to create a new intent. I don't believe that's the case. The WoBs are a bit vague, but it sounds to me more like Harmony now has one Shard in the sense that if he dropped it, someone else could pick up that one Shard, but that the relevant investiture from each Shard is still essentially separate. Some WoBs

Quote

Question

Were Ruin and Preservation two shards or one?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards. Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.

Quote

Mason Wheeler

And shard holders tend to take the name of the shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

Quote

Thanatos17901 ()

Thanks so much for all your writing, Way of Kings is the best book I've read in the last decade.

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

Quote

Autarchk (March 2013)

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

But I agree it is unclear. I just feel like Harmony, even if he's holding 'one' Shard, he's balancing two separate Intents, two separate packets of investiture each with opposing Intents. I don't think he can just put the combined Intent of Harmonic investiture into people. I think he has to choose whether he's using Ruinous investiture or Preservative Investiture.

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@hwiles your thinking is interesting but it is predicated on Harmony now being one intermingled Shard, with the investiture from both Shards actually having intertwined to create a new intent. I don't believe that's the case. The WoBs are a bit vague, but it sounds to me more like Harmony now has one Shard in the sense that if he dropped it, someone else could pick up that one Shard, but that the relevant investiture from each Shard is still essentially separate. Some WoBs

But I agree it is unclear. I just feel like Harmony, even if he's holding 'one' Shard, he's balancing two separate Intents, two separate packets of investiture each with opposing Intents. I don't think he can just put the combined Intent of Harmonic investiture into people. I think he has to choose whether he's using Ruinous investiture or Preservative Investiture.

I both agree and disagree. I think that that one about the Shards being intermingled says that it's a slow process, but that eventually they will fully merge. 

So to put it bluntly, I think that Harmony currently has three intents. One is currently minor enough to have virtually no effect, but over time it will grow and the others diminish. 

So, assuming that Sazed did alter the proportions of Preservation and Ruin at the time of the catacendre, I think he would have balanced them between the two, as the third would not yet have existed. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Ah but @Calderis I missed the core of why I don't think Harmony would want to do that

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT.COM)

There is interesting discussion about this one below, which I like to see. I thought this might spark some discussion. Remember that human beings were given more of preservation than Ruin during their creation, which led to Preservation eventually being overwhelmed by Ruin. That was the bargain; people would be of preservation at their core, but in turn Ruin got to claim the world once Preservation wound down

The whole idea, in my mind, of Preservation sacrificing himself was to ensure that Scadrians are Preservation to their core. He didn't just want people to be sapient like on other planets, he wanted them to be much more of preservation. That's why I can't see Sazed upsetting that balance and it makes more sense to me that he'd expel the extra Ruin elsewhere. 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

@Extesian I was just under the impression Leras just wanted them to be sapient (i had not seen that WoB until just now) especially if the humans they had created were early hominids like our predecessors, but i have yet to see a more detailed description of exactly what kind of humans/animals R+P actually created and why Leras felt they needed to be more of Preservation (meaning, what exactly was different to early Scadrian life than at the time he made the sacrifice)