Santhids and Greatshells

[Nathrangking he/him]

They cant be that scary Hoid was going to get them to do a musical number!!

[Dragon.of.Stone he/him]

This is some really cool speculation.  I'm sorry I'm not helpful with these kinds of things, but keep developing this and I'd like to see where it goes.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

  Quote

Question

Are the Chasmfiends that we have seen the last stage of their life-cycle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you have seen the last stage of their lifestyle. You’ve seen the second and third stages mostly.

Question

Are you counting the cocoons?

Brandon Sanderson

Cocoons are a stage, yes.

OK. that takes out the theory that they aren't in their adult form. However, the wacky theory still stands: The cocoon is the 2nd stage. The Chasmfiend is the 3rd stage. That or the two stages are reversed and the cocoon is the 3rd and final stage (unlikely but possible I guess.) Here is what I think: The 2nd stage (cocooned) is a non-bonded stage. Because of the extra strength of the cocoon, they don't get crushed by their own weight, despite the absence of the gravityspren. The 3rd stage is a bonded one, typically with gravityspren or a related spren. And as seasons pass and they age, they revert from the 3rd stage to the 2nd, then back again (unless killed while cocooned). While cocooned, the bond breaks or dissolves, and a new one forms, allowing for a desolationspren to form a bond now that the everstorm is here. Thus the chasmfiend is the adult stage, but the adult stage can have multiple forms, similarly to Parshendi. The difference is that since Chasmfiend need specific types of spren to survive in a non-cocoon state, so it only really has 2-3 forms, and since the everstorm is recent (at least in this specific cycle of history), then the default gravityspren form is the only one we have seen so far. But there might also be a thunderclast (or other voidbringer) form hiding if the proper bond is formed.

If any of you guys want to debate this though, we should probably make a new thread.

[Calderis he/him]

@Runeweaver it doesn't mention Santhids specifically, but Brandon's answer here says that aquatic greatshells are a thing. The more I look at things, the more I think their classification as a Greatshell is correct. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1107#12

Quote

AHOYMATEY ()

Do all greatshells have spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

In order to survive with the science that I built, the greatshells almost all require some sort of spren to keep them from collapsing. (I suspect greatshells in the water may not require them.)

 

[Nathrangking he/him]

@Lord Maelstrom that theory if proven correct would make things very interesting.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

22 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

@Lord Maelstrom that theory if proven correct would make things very interesting.

Especially if you look closely at this WoB:

  Quote

17

Botanica

Larkin and lanceryn
1. In WoK, Jasnah's mention of this lanceryn befuddled me a lot. We know that it is a kind of greatshell with gemhearts native to Aimia, but except this, we know nothing. The translator interpreted it as "lance-beast". I suspect he got it inspired because "lanceryn" is similar to "lance", which is a kind of weapon. I'd like to know whether this name origins from "lance" or not. If not, could you simply describe how this creature actually looks like, so I can come up with a new term? (I'm not sure if the former translator has ever contacted you.)
2. So larkins are more like flying insects? I imagine they are a mixture of crab (or any crustacean), wasp and little dragon. Is that okay? (Do larkins really have reddish/brown crusts?)

Peter

The lanceryn and larkin are two names for the same creature. When it says lanceryn, it’s definitely referring only to the enormous greatshell version that is believed to be extinct. The name is not related to “lance”…I think. The small larkin can be considered the cremling/larva version of the lanceryn.

Source: http://coppermind.huijiwiki.com/wiki/问答与访谈/WoP_2015#.E9.82.AE.E4.BB.B63

Notice how he mentions Cremlings side by side with Larva? This makes me suspect that Cremlings (in their various types) are the Larva stage of the many greatshells and greatshell related species.

So, take that into account, and you might get this: You have a family of species that are all crustacean, with larva, cocoon and adult stages. In all of them, at least the adult form requires a spren bond to survive. The people of Roshar don't necessarily realize that the adult stages actually have larva stages, and as such, the larva stages are (wrongly) classified as a different type of species. Thus you have the Cremling larva, and the Greatshell adults, though there are some larva that people don't think of as cremlings (like the larkin) and some adults that people don't think of as greatshells (take the axehound for example).

Now, this is where it gets creepy. The various crustacean species' adult stages are all bonded to harmless spren, as a default, however, there are times and stages where that bond is broken and another one is made. And there are various desolationspren that can also form bonds with the various crustacean species, changing their bodies and abilities, in a similar way to the Listener's form changing. Thus, all of the crustacean species, while in their adult forms, are potential voidbringers. Potential species of the crustacean/viodbringer family: Axehounds, Skyeels (maybe), Larkin/Lanceryn, the different cremlings, Chasmfiend, Chull, Sarpenthyn (again, maybe) and Lurg.

[Calderis he/him]

Onto the next theory... 

The Unmade are Shalebark 

[Nathrangking he/him]

@Calderis if  that were so then i suppose that a nice roaring fire would be in order.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Onto the next theory... 

The Unmade are Shalebark 

Maybe not the unmade but thunderclasts? 

Almost definitely not, but they are described as animated stone.

59 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

 If  that were so then i suppose that a nice roaring fire would be in order.

Do we get confirmation that shalebark is flammable? It makes sense to me, but I can't remember any references.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Cowmanthethird
Spelling

[Calderis he/him]

33 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Maybe not the unmade but thunderclasts? 

Almost definitely not, but they are described as animated stone.

It was a joke. I really wasn't trying to pull the thread off topic. As to Thunderclasts though, we actually see one made in Dalinar's Purelake vision, and it is definitely stone. 

33 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Do we get confirmation that shalebark is flammable? It makes sense to me, but I can't remember any references.

We know rockbuds are, and as Shalebark is a form of vegetation I'd say probably, but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen it happen. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Calderis

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

,@Calderis I was joking too, though perhaps I played it a bit too straight.

I agree though, this is an interesting discussion that I dont want to derail either. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

I figured that it was a joke, but once pandora's box is opened...

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

OK. Rereading WoK, so I have a bunch to add. For one thing, Brandon says that we have seen the last stage of the Chasmfiend lifecycle. He doesn't say that the chasmfiend hunted by the Alethi is the last stage. Just that we have seen it. For all we know, we saw the final stage in one of Dalinars visions, or in the Prelude, or in one of the paintings. He says that we have mostly seen the 2nd and 3rd stages. But nothing implies that there aren't 4 or 5 stages. I don't think it's right. I'm just saying that it's possible.

Also, something in support of Chasmfiend becoming Thunderclast, or at least some sort of desolation species: Blood. Chasmfiend have Purple ichor (as seen when Adolin carves out the gemheart after the battle when Dalinar loses him taste for war). Parshendi have orange blood (also seen in that battle). During the prelude, Kalak describes there being Red, Orange and Violet blood on the battlefield, and that not all of the bodies were human. I'm asuming that the red blood is human, and that the violet and orange blood belong either to Parshendi, Chasmfiend, or at least to related species. Though it could also belong to Aimians, though I'm not sure they would count as non-humans.

One last thing, in Dalianr's first vision (that we see at least) one of the radiants mentions the 10 deaths. I suspect that there are 10 species that plague mankind during Desolations, and that the KR referred to them as the 10 deaths. If so, I have a sneaky suspicion that the species each have different color blood, each one having one of the 10 colors tied to the radiants. It would just be really cool. So far you would have Chasmiend with the purple of the Willshapers, and Parshendi with the orange of the Stonewards or Dustbringers. And possibly the Midnight Essence with the gray of the Edgedancers.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Lord Maelstrom

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

So far you would have Chasmiend with the purple of the Willshapers, and Parshendi with the orange of the Stonewards or Dustbringers. And possibly the Midnight Essence with the gray of the Edgedancers.

I don't know what the ten deaths are, but I I'm sure that midnight essence is one of them. 

If they do align with the essences like you think, they're obviously the black/smokestone of the Skybreakers. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't know what the ten deaths are, but I I'm sure that midnight essence is one of them. 

If they do align with the essences like you think, they're obviously the black/smokestone of the Skybreakers. 

Except that when you look at the symbols in the double eye, the symbol for the Skybreakers is actually a grayish purple, halfway between the Purple of the Willshapers and the Gray of the Edgedancers.

As for the 10 Deaths, the only quote I have found for them is here:

Quote

"All who can fight are needed," the woman said. "And all who have a desire to fight should be compelled to come to Alethela. Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths, changes a person. We can teach you so that it will not destroy you. Come to us."

[The Way of Kings, Chapter 19]

Whether the Ten Deaths simply roamed around, or were tied to the Desolations, I'm not sure. However, in the same chapter, one of the radiants seems to think that the Midnight Essences being there is a confirming sign of a desolation coming.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Except that when you look at the symbols in the double eye, the symbol for the Skybreakers is actually a grayish purple, halfway between the Purple of the Willshapers and the Gray of the Edgedancers.

Two days in a row I've argued this point. I understand the color on the chart. But if the essence is represented by smokestone, then the color is black. 

Smokestone is not purple. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Two days in a row I've argued this point. I understand the color on the chart. But if the essence is represented by smokestone, then the color is black. 

Smokestone is not purple. 

Actually, what do we know about smokestone? I can't find anything on google. For all we know, it actually is steely purple, and the reason it is called a smokestone is because of how it is related to smoke through Fabrials. I mean, fabrials have enough influence on gem culture on roshar for their value to be based on how useful the gem is in soulcasting, why not having a similar effect on their names?

Though if you have any places where the colors, or eyes of a Skybreaker are described, or if the book mentions the color of smokestone, then by all means correct me.

[+Extesian he/him]

From WoK

Quote

The gemstones set into Jasnah’s Soulcaster were enormous, some of the largest that Shallan had ever seen, worth many spheres each. One was smokestone, a pure glassy black gemstone.

 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

16 minutes ago, Extesian said:

From WoK

Quote

The gemstones set into Jasnah’s Soulcaster were enormous, some of the largest that Shallan had ever seen, worth many spheres each. One was smokestone, a pure glassy black gemstone.

Thanks for that. I guess that puts the Mightnight Essense with a strong correlation with the Skybreakers then.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 8/1/2017 at 11:38 AM, Calderis said:

it doesn't mention Santhids specifically, but Brandon's answer here says that aquatic greatshells are a thing. The more I look at things, the more I think their classification as a Greatshell is correct.

You are forgetting about the Tai-Na. And the Yu-Nerig, come to think of it.

I'm not currently disputing Santhids being Greatshells, only that using the WoB as proof is insufficient.

[+Extesian he/him]

Only thing I know talking about whether they're greatshells is this apparently unreliable WoB

Quote

Interview: Feb 20th, 2016

Calamity-Philadelphia, PA

Question

Santhids and greatshells?

Brandon Sanderson

No direct relationship between Santhids and Chasmfiends.

Santhids are one of the only sapient creatures on Roshar though, and they bond with spren, and they're big, and they have a shell. I can't imagine how they wouldn't be defined as greatshells. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're a different evolutionary branch.

[FiveLate]

On 8/26/2017 at 10:16 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

Actually, what do we know about smokestone? I can't find anything on google. For all we know, it actually is steely purple, and the reason it is called a smokestone is because of how it is related to smoke through Fabrials. I mean, fabrials have enough influence on gem culture on roshar for their value to be based on how useful the gem is in soulcasting, why not having a similar effect on their names?

Though if you have any places where the colors, or eyes of a Skybreaker are described, or if the book mentions the color of smokestone, then by all means correct me.

Smokestone is actually Smokey quartz..... I can't find were I read this I just remember it was by @WeiryWriter.  So hopefully the tag will answer this.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

On 8/2/2017 at 1:03 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

Now, this is where it gets creepy. The various crustacean species' adult stages are all bonded to harmless spren, as a default, however, there are times and stages where that bond is broken and another one is made. And there are various desolationspren that can also form bonds with the various crustacean species, changing their bodies and abilities, in a similar way to the Listener's form changing. Thus, all of the crustacean species, while in their adult forms, are potential voidbringers. Potential species of the crustacean/viodbringer family: Axehounds, Skyeels (maybe), Larkin/Lanceryn, the different cremlings, Chasmfiend, Chull, Sarpenthyn (again, maybe) and Lurg.

This is pure conjecture on my part.  But based on this idea, perhaps Axehounds become Midnight Essences when they are bonded to desolationspren.  Essences do seem rather dog-like, and they kind of have a similar body structure to Axehounds:  by this I mean they both have 6 legs, which could be coincidental.  Obviously Midnight Essences are made of smoke, but Voidspren can cause Listeners to attain Smoke form, so it's plausible Axehounds could turn into Essences.

By the way, are the terms Voidspren and Desolationspren synonymous, or is there a distinction between the two?

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

By the way, are the terms Voidspren and Desolationspren synonymous, or is there a distinction between the two?

I know at least one is used in the books. The other might have been also from the book, or maybe just came into being on this forum. If the latter, then I'm fairly sure they are considered the same thing. I've been using the term desolationspren myself, though I'd like it if a spen expert would shed some light.

[Jace21 he/him]

Voidspren is the term used in the books, by Pattern and Shallan I believe.

Desolationspren is a term we made up on the forum I think as it isnt in the books.

I prefer Voidspren personally, I think it is more accurate, but either work.