Body of Honor

[Asha'man Logain]

Good afternoon all. As I was tossing and turning last night chasing in vain after some sleep, I began to think of the way magic works. On Roshar, we have stormlight that seems to fuel, or power, the magic, Spren who are integral to using magic, and gems that store stormlight, trap spren and make fabrials work.

 

On Scadrial, we had metals that fueled alomancy, mists of shards and pools of shards. We also found that Shards are blind to their 'focus' due to the power or investiture or something.

 

What if the gems are the 'body' or physical realm representation of Honor and/or Cultivation, much as the Atium and Lerasium were physical aspects or 'bodies' of those shards?

 

Now eating Lerasium brings you closer to Preservation, and thereby giving you stronger powers (or giving you powers to begin with if you previously were without). On Roshar, saying the Ideals bring you closer to Honor, giving you more power or starting your power, based on how far along you are.

 

These I see as essentially the same thing. One is a physical act granting power, the other is a cognitive (or maybe spiritual) act granting power.

 

Since on Scadrial you needed a physical act of consuming Investiture (in the form of the shard's physical form), and the metals merely provided the form for the power you channeled, could not the Cognitive (or spiritual) aspect on Roshar, mean that the physical form of the Shards act as the form granting which powers are expressed? This time the body of the shard forms the magic, instead of granting it as on Scadrial.

 

 

 

 

I was very tired last night, and am typing this at work, so it may be full of holes I just haven't woken up enough to see. now, release your metaphoric moths to eat holes in my wonderful tapestry of conjecture!

 

~Logain

[Moogle]

On Scadrial, we had metals that fueled alomancy, mists of shards and pools of shards. We also found that Shards are blind to their 'focus' due to the power or investiture or something.

 

We don't know this for sure. There's two important aspects to magic that we've identified - each world has a 'focus' which turns Investiture into useful effects, and a 'reservoir' to which Investiture sticks easily. Metals count as both on Scadrial, but Nalthis has Commands as a focus, and living things as a reservoir, and Roshar has gems a reservoir and spren/Cognitive ideals as a focus (possibly). I doubt Endowment is blind to Commands (how would that work?), but suspect he/she is blind to life (seeing every living thing as a blinding amount of light). It could also just be that Shards are blind to Investiture, but this is doubtful, as metals do not contain Investiture on Roshar (or if they do, it's a small amount) except in the case of atium/lerasium.

 

 

What if the gems are the 'body' or physical realm representation of Honor and/or Cultivation, much as the Atium and Lerasium were physical aspects or 'bodies' of those shards?

 

I am doubtful. There are a LOT of gems, but there was only ever a small amount of atium/lerasium. You also can't use gems to power magic (though that may be a quirk of Scadrial). We do, I believe, know that gemhearts are formed similar to atium (I'll find that WoB later if no one else does) so perhaps you could argue that gemhearts are the body of Cultivation, but regular gems that are mined from the ground and so I am very doubtful.

[Asha'man Logain]

I got the impression that all the gems on Roshar were from the same source. The shelled creatures living on the planet, indeed much like atium regenerated. I thought the reason the shattered plains was so special was because of the size of the 'greatshells' and therefore their gemhearts. One would think if they were nothing more that particularly organized rock formations, then they would be able to be soulcast.

 

Again I could be wrong, and gems could be Cultivation's physical aspect. I don't think magic works exactly the same everywhere, but also remember while Scadrial is awesome, it is a low investiture world whereas Roshar is HIGH investiture. This could mean just more prevalent magic, or even perhaps, higher quantities of the physical aspect of a shard or three as well.

 

~Logain

[marianmi]

@Logain, this has been discussed before, many times...

I'm also one in the camp that gems are (like atium is for Ruin) the physical aspect of the body of Honor.

There are different magic systems however, where for example metal is focus - so metal is not special, but mist(ings,borns) burn metal to gain access to the "real power" from the spiritual realm. On Roshar, it seems to me that stormlight IS the "real power", leaked in the physical realm during highstorms. So comparisons are hard to make.

[Moogle]

I've thought more on this. Here are the highlights:

• Reservoirs, or the things on each planet that Investiture sticks to easily, are not themselves the body of any Shards.
• Bodies of the Shard, however, use the reservoir as a base. Take a regular metal, add some Preservation, and you get lerasium. Take a flower (life), add a little bit of Endowment, and you've got the Tears of Edgli. (Brandon has waffled on the matter of the Tears being the body of Endowment. I believe this is because they are not the pure body of Endowment, but they are a result of the Shardpool leaking into the flowers, and because I think life is the reservoir on Nalthis, they could conceivably be considered Endowment's body, though a lesser version of it.)
• Therefore, gemstones are not Honor or Cultivation's body, but infused gemstones could be considered to be the body of some Shard. There will be different, more pure versions of their bodies though, and it's possible that Stormlight is of neither Honor or Cultivation.
• Szeth's black sphere is likely a regular sphere with a gem in it... but contains a Shard's Investiture, and thus is a Shard's body. Likely Cultivation or Odium's in the nightsphere's case.Thus the special black light effect.

[marianmi]

 

I've thought more on this. Here are the highlights:

• Reservoirs, or the things on each planet that Investiture sticks to easily, are not themselves the body of any Shards.
• Bodies of the Shard, however, use the reservoir as a base. Take a regular metal, add some Preservation, and you get lerasium. Take a flower (life), add a little bit of Endowment, and you've got the Tears of Edgli. (Brandon has waffled on the matter of the Tears being the body of Endowment. I believe this is because they are not the pure body of Endowment, but they are a result of the Shardpool leaking into the flowers, and because I think life is the reservoir on Nalthis, they could conceivably be considered Endowment's body, though a lesser version of it.)
• Therefore, gemstones are not Honor or Cultivation's body, but infused gemstones could be considered to be the body of some Shard. There will be different, more pure versions of their bodies though, and it's possible that Stormlight is of neither Honor or Cultivation.
• Szeth's black sphere is likely a regular sphere with a gem in it... but contains a Shard's Investiture, and thus is a Shard's body. Likely Cultivation or Odium's in the nightsphere's case.Thus the special black light effect.

 

 

Having investiture does not make something the body of a shard. When Kaladin is infusing, he's not the body of Honor.

[Moogle]

Having investiture does not make something the body of a shard. When Kaladin is infusing, he's not the body of Honor.

 

Investiture itself is the 'body' of a Shard, so far as I know. I am not saying that having Investiture makes something into a body of a shard. I am saying that when you take Investiture and stick it into the Physical, you're going to get three different forms of it. This is what I'm theorizing so far for the forms:

1. Physical. Lerasium, atium, Szeth's nightsphere. It will physically be the reservoir of the planet in question (a gemstone in Roshar's case) but Spiritually be different (which leads to 'black light' that never ceases from the nightsphere).
2. Liquid. The substance in Shardpools of all kinds; Elantris' crystalline blue pool, the Well of Ascension.
3. Gaseous. The mists, Breath when being transferred between objects, Stormlight (which not-so-coincidentally is breathed in).

It doesn't necessarily have to be an all-or-nothing thing with being a body either, I think. The Tears of Edgli are a result of the Shardpool of Endowment leaking into the reservoir of Nalthis (equivalent: the Shardpool of Odium or Cultivation leaking into a gemstone and making a nightsphere, if this is possible), so in a way they could be considered the body of Endowment.

[Aminar]

I think the point he's making is that then the body of the shard would be the Stormlight itself... I would guess that the body of a shard would be a gem, but a gem that comes pre-infused... On Scadrial there is no ifusing of metal, the metal is all pre-infused, but on Roshar gems have to be infused via Highstorm. It seems likely that if there are pre-infused gems they'd have to come from something like gemhearts... Except we'd need three kinds of gemhearts then, and that seems unlikley. Instead I think we haven't seen any of the Shards physical aspects yet(unless the Honorblades are made of Honor...) I can see that route being taken.

[marianmi]

- Lerasium and Tears of Edgli can all change the sDNA of a person.

So from this perspective, Honorblades are more the body of Honor than gems are.

 

- Atium could be used as focus, but I don't see a true equivalent here, since Atium is outside the "normal" allomantic table.

 

- Mists ... like Brandon said ... are more like stormlight ... but I don't think stormlight is the "body" of Honor as well... more like the power of creation, which is not a shard's "body".

 

EDIT: wow, Aminar, same thoughts at the same time

Edited February 14, 2014 by marianmi

[Moogle]

- Mists ... like Brandon said ... are more like stormlight ... but I don't think stormlight is the "body" of Honor as well... more like the power of creation, which is not a shard's "body".

 

They're the same thing. Hero of Ages went into this in detail:

 

 

It may seem odd to those reading this that atium was part of the body of a god. However, it is necessary to understand that when we said “body” we generally meant “power.” As my mind has expanded, I’ve come to realize that objects and energy are actually composed of the very same things, and can change state from one to another. It makes perfect sense to me that the power of godhood would be manifest within the world in physical form. Ruin and Preservation were not nebulous abstractions. They were integral parts of existence. In a way, every object that existed in the world was composed of their power. Atium, then, was an object that was one-sided. Instead of being composed of half Ruin and half Preservation—as, say, a rock would be—atium was completely of Ruin. The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin’s body that he had stolen away during the betrayal and imprisonment. Kelsier didn’t truly destroy this place by shattering those crystals, for they would have regrown eventually—in a few hundred years—and continued to deposit atium, as the place was a natural outlet for Ruin’s trapped power. When people burned atium, then, they were drawing upon the power of Ruin—which is, perhaps, why atium turned people into such efficient killing machines. They didn’t use up this power, however, but simply made use of it. Once a nugget of atium was expended, the power would return to the Pits and begin to coalesce again—just as the power at the Well of Ascension would return there again after it had been used.

 

The way atium is described - the power isn't used up, but it returns to where it came from - seems mightily similar to Stormlight, wouldn't you say? Stormlight is Investiture, which is the power of a Shard, which is their body.

 

The fact that gemhearts grow in animals like atium coalesced from crystals is... suggestive. Mistborn makes things hard though - the focus and reservoir for magic were both metal on Scadrial. It's difficult to know if the body of a god is naturally infused with power like atium or if a gemheart could qualify.

 

Mildly speculative: I suspect gemhearts and Stormlight may be the 'body' of Adonalsium. Because Adonalsium was all sixteen Shards, his 'body' would not actually be an imbalance of anything, like Ruin's was, so it might not have be as powerful as something like lerasium. Highstorms may have been on Roshar before Honor ever got there. Adonalsium left power there, after all.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Moogle

[Morsk he/him]

Until we get a counterexample, I've assumed all physical / body aspects are metals, partly because Adonalsium ends in -ium which is for metal, and partly because blood is magical and associated with Spiritual aspects on at least two different planets. If blood can have similar magical associations across planets, metal can too.

After all, say a Shard hadn't invested in a planet at all. How would it make a physical aspect of itself then?

[Moogle]

After all, say a Shard hadn't invested in a planet at all. How would it make a physical aspect of itself then?

 

Why would it have a physical form if it hadn't invested in a planet? A physical form is made by bringing Investiture into the Physical. Which, from my understanding, is what you're doing when you invest in a planet.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Moogle

[Aminar]

Why would it have a physical form if it hadn't invested in a planet? A physical form is made by bringing Investiture into the Physical. Which, from my understanding, is what you're doing when you invest in a planet.

Because it started as a physical being. I don't see why Shards would need to invest in a planet. Clearly they desire to, but I don't see why a Shard couldn't just be on a planet. They have to be able to not be invested in a planet but manifest physically at some point or they'd never be able to find planets to start creating life on.

[Moogle]

Because it started as a physical being. I don't see why Shards would need to invest in a planet. Clearly they desire to, but I don't see why a Shard couldn't just be on a planet. They have to be able to not be invested in a planet but manifest physically at some point or they'd never be able to find planets to start creating life on.

 

I'm not so sure on this. Jasnah and Shallan both go into Shadesmar with their minds while leaving their Physical bodies in the Physical. I don't see why Shards couldn't stay in the Cognitive/Spiritual if they wanted to and have their holder's consciousness moved into the Physical without creating something physical out of their Investiture. It is suggestive to me that the Well and Ruin's Shardpool were both 'metallic' liquids (or their liquid and solid forms were both modeled after the reservoir of Scadrial). It implies to me that you can't have a physical body without being invested on a planet.

 

Sort of like how Syl cannot think or function well in the Physical without bonding to a physical mind like Kaladin's, a Shard may similarly be inhibited unless it bonds to a physical planet. Spren are just smaller versions of a Shard, really. (Edit: OOH OOH I am an idiot this is perfect material to make a theory on why Shards require holders, I just need to dissect Syl's words on the matter)

 

If Shards could affect worlds and didn't need to invest in planets like you're suggesting, then I don't see why Odium would have invested on Roshar.

 

Then again, I'm confident that Shards can invest whatever they want. Perhaps I'm wrong and Honorblades are in fact the Physical form of Honor and he could never create anything but swords from his Investiture.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Moogle

[StormLight_Luc he/him]

Hello there, newby here.

I'm no expert, and I'm kind of ignorant about the whole investiture thing, but can the Highstroms be linked to Honor? As far as it has been seen Stormlight is harvested during Highstorms, dun sphere always getting replenished, no exceptions.

They are a massive planet shaping event, so physical but at the same time bring Stormlight, supernatural energy that fuels surgebinding abilities, shard and plate and are linked to sprens.

Does this help?

[Aminar]

I doubt that's all he could do, but there is something deliciously perfect about Honor forming his physical essence into the weapons meant to herald the beginning of the fight against the desolation. It's just the right kind of clicke if you understand what I mean.

Beyond that, it's quite possible we haven't seen the physical manifestation of honor yet.

As to them having to be metal, I think the pool in Elantris is enough to prove it doesn't have to be metallic.

[Moogle]

I'm no expert, and I'm kind of ignorant about the whole investiture thing, but can the Highstroms be linked to Honor? As far as it has been seen Stormlight is harvested during Highstorms, dun sphere always getting replenished, no exceptions.

 

Investiture (the power that fuels all magic in the Cosmere) comes from Shards, and the highstorms put Investiture (Stormlight) into gems. Thus, highstorms could very well be from Honor, or Cultivation, or a mix of the two, or it could even be from Adonalsium (the name for when all 16 Shards were one being). We know all the Shards were on Roshar at one point.

 

I doubt that's all he could do, but there is something deliciously perfect about Honor forming his physical essence into the weapons meant to herald the beginning of the fight against the desolation. It's just the right kind of clicke if you understand what I mean.

 

Possibly. I'm not happy with that explanation, though, because of Nightblood also being a magic sword and the fact that Shardblades can be bonded with.

 

 

As to them having to be metal, I think the pool in Elantris is enough to prove it doesn't have to be metallic.

 

No, no, I'm saying that the physical forms of the shards will involve the focus or reservoir of the planet.

• Scadrial has a focus and reservoir of metal, and the Pools there were metallic. The physical form of each Shard was metallic.
• Elantris has a focus of Aons and a reservoir of ???, the Pool we saw there was a 'crystalline blue'.
• Roshar has a focus of spren/ideals/Cognitive forms and a reservoir of gemstones, the Pools of Honor/Odium/Cultivation will probably be gemstone-y. Normally I would say 'crystalline' but Elantris stole that one.
• Warbreaker has a focus of Commands and a reservoir of life (?), the Pool there should be multicolored and shifting/flowing as if alive. This may be why the Pool 'leaks' when other Pools do not (resulting in the Tears of Edgli).

I think that gemhearts are probably the body of something. The reason they themselves are not powerful could be because they're pure Adonalsium or something.

 

 

Viper

Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson

It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there.

[Asha'man Logain]

Do we have WoB that all shards were on Roshar at one point? Could someone post the quote if we do? Thanks in advance Sharders

[Moogle]

Do we have WoB that all shards were on Roshar at one point? Could someone post the quote if we do? Thanks in advance Sharders

 

Enjoy:

 

 

Q: How many shards have ever been on Roshar?

A:*Brandon repeats question."

Okay, Oh boy, Um...I... Um....ehh...um

At one point, all of them were on Roshar, which is technically true.

 

Q: How many shards have invested their power on Roshar?

A: Technically, all of them did.

(source)

 

He may be waffling because Adonalsium was on Roshar and thus 'all' of the Shards were there at one point.

[StormLight_Luc he/him]

Question: has it been explained somewhere exactly why uncut gems/sphere are inferior to cut ones? They both keep stormlight in but if I remember correctly my readings of the WoK uncut were considered less valuable than cut ones.

Btw as it been confirmed if gems only grow in some of the living creatures on Roshar? I mean their worth depends on the size, color, cut, provenance, quality etc... But I never had the impresion that they were a rarity. For example we have seen that Alethy nobility uses them as decoration but at the same time it's Roshar's main currency. And it's not only because of the stormlight that is used to soulcast as soulcasters aren't comon so there must be a place where it can be found, different than inside the chrysalis of hugh crustacean monsters, right?

Anyway, returning to the body of Honor, is it possible that in Roshar the body is not one single element/place/focud like it was on Scadrial but several that together form it? Like in some religions here on good ol' earth that says that god is not a single entity but parts of a whole; three in one? Or when they say that we are a trinity of body, mind and soul?

Btw Moogle thank you for taking the time to help correct my ignorance

This said, talking about Adonalsium, the 16 shards in Roshar, well, can it be discussed here? I have some ideas I would like to share but I'm not sure if here in this thread it's the right place to do so even if the discussion seems to move in that direccion.

Anyway thank you very much.

[Cromptj he/him]

For whatever reason, uncut gems cannot hold as much stormlight as cut gems, plus cut gems look pretty and sparkle more

[Asha'man Logain]

Thanks for the quote. It seems to me that Brandon was talking about Adonalsium being on Roshar at one point. Since there are Adonalsium spren, that makes sense. I was wondering if it was that, or that after being separate they all were on Roshar.

Like a Shard social on Roshar or something

[Aminar]

For whatever reason, uncut gems cannot hold as much stormlight as cut gems, plus cut gems look pretty and sparkle more

If I had to guess that's actually more proof that Stormlight isn't a physical thing. In our world Cut gems display and move light around much better than uncut gems. It's part of their value. The facets allow the light to bounce around and move more freely. If we look at stormlight as pure energy that cannot pass through stone effectively unless manipulated magically, and the light seen is what leaks out that makes a form of sense.

[AerionBFII he/him]

If I had to guess that's actually more proof that Stormlight isn't a physical thing. In our world Cut gems display and move light around much better than uncut gems. It's part of their value. The facets allow the light to bounce around and move more freely. If we look at stormlight as pure energy that cannot pass through stone effectively unless manipulated magically, and the light seen is what leaks out that makes a form of sense.

I think im inclined to agree with this