[OB] Dalinar & Shshshsh

[Pattern he/him]

Assuming Dalinar killed Shshshsh, then his boon could be that everybody forgets that it was he who killed her. This would include Adolin and Renarin holding no grudge against him for it. Resilient or not, this they would not easily forgive.
The curse is then that Dalinar himself forgets her intirely.

I am still not on to the theory that Dalinar killed Shshshsh himself, though it is not unlikely when you've read The Thrill.

Edit: The events happening in the Rift (The Thrill) are before Adolin and Renarin were born, so obviously before Shshshsh died. There might have been another incident in the Rift later which led to Shshshsh's death.

BTW, did you notice Shshshsh is an ideal symmetric Vorin name, regarding "Sh" is one sound?

Edited September 7, 2017 by Pattern

[Storyspren]

There's no chance she's really dead. She's the most alive dead person we've never met.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

2 hours ago, Storyspren said:

There's no chance she's really dead. She's the most alive dead person we've never met.

With what we learn of her from The Thrill  I wonder if she finally saw the Beast  she talks about and maybe refuses to be rescued? 

[Storyspren]

8 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

With what we learn of her from The Thrill  I wonder if she finally saw the Beast  she talks about and maybe refuses to be rescued? 

I guess we will have to wait to RAFO.

Sorrow. Clenched fists. Wailing.

 

[maxal she/her]

18 hours ago, Pattern said:

Assuming Dalinar killed Shshshsh, then his boon could be that everybody forgets that it was he who killed her. This would include Adolin and Renarin holding no grudge against him for it. Resilient or not, this they would not easily forgive.
The curse is then that Dalinar himself forgets her intirely.

I am still not on to the theory that Dalinar killed Shshshsh himself, though it is not unlikely when you've read The Thrill.

Edit: The events happening in the Rift (The Thrill) are before Adolin and Renarin were born, so obviously before Shshshsh died. There might have been another incident in the Rift later which led to Shshshsh's death.

BTW, did you notice Shshshsh is an ideal symmetric Vorin name, regarding "Sh" is one sound?

I somehow doubt the boon and the curse can both be about "forgetting something". He need not to have made a boon to have everyone forget, it seems too much... As @Edonidd suggested, I do think the gruesome explanation is probably the right one: nobody knows the truth not because Dalinar erased their memories, but because he never told anyone. There was no witness except for Kadash: everyone else, dead. Dalinar told his sons a lie. They walked out of the ordeal relatively unscathed because they were told their mother was murdered by an evil man and their father killed the evil man, but Adolin's tendencies to want to protect his family may come from there. 

As for the boon, I think it more likely Dalinar asked for something else entirely: he asked to gain something, so something was removed from him. My new theory is he asked for something very selfish and in exchange something important was taken away from him. If I am not mistaken, he chasmfiend hunt during which Gavilar met the Parshendi happened after Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher...  I am thinking Dalinar asked for a means to bring back the old Gavilar, the fighting Gavilar because he was bored without the war. He got the clue about the plains, but memories from his wife were taken away from him.

The events at the Rift within The Thrill are horrible by themselves. They show a side of Dalinar nobody has suspected even existed as most readers see him as a great good man. At the Rift, he wasn't.

[Calderis he/him]

41 minutes ago, maxal said:

I am thinking Dalinar asked for a means to bring back the old Gavilar, the fighting Gavilar because he was bored without the war. He got the clue about the plains, but memories from his wife were taken away from him.

Gavilar was away at the Shattered Plains during Dalinar's trip to the Valley, which is why Elhokar was in charge for the Roshone affair. 

I like your reasoning, and I agree he asked for something. This doesn't fit with the timeline though. 

[Pattern he/him]

@maxal:Good points. I have to add another thought I'd like to hear your opinion of:

 

5 hours ago, maxal said:

The events at the Rift within The Thrill are horrible by themselves. They show a side of Dalinar nobody has suspected even existed as most readers see him as a great good man. At the Rift, he wasn't.

The Rift and Rathalas

Spoiler The Thrill

Spoiler

where Dalinar got Oathbringer from the six or seven year old boy (for what we definitely don't like Dalinar)

is happening "34 year ago", Dalinar meets Shshshsh later, I think "28 years ago", so those events Kadash is referring to are probably not related to Shshshsh's death.

Another thing we assume is, that the event Kadash refers to is related to Shshshsh's death because Dalinar cannot remember it. This is likely but not necessary. Dalinar has forgotten everything about his wife, this does not mean that he hasn't forgotten anything else.

I am smelling the odour of fish, a red herring...

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pattern

[Tarion]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

@maxal:Good points. I have to add another thought I'd like to hear your opinion of:

 

The Rift and Rathalas

Spoiler The Thrill

  Reveal hidden contents

where Dalinar got Oathbringer from the six or seven year old boy (for what we definitely don't like Dalinar)

is happening "34 year ago", Dalinar meets Shshshsh later, I think "28 years ago", so those events Kadash is referring to are probably not related to Shshshsh's death.

Another thing we assume is, that the event Kadash refers to is related to Shshshsh's death because Dalinar cannot remember it. This is likely but not necessary. Dalinar has forgotten everything about his wife, this does not mean that he hasn't forgotten anything else.

I am smelling the odour of fish, a red herring...

The difference between oldschool evil warlord Dalinar and modern Dalinar make a lot of sense if he's forgotten a lot of the nastier experiences of his life.

If, after losing his wife, he asked for his pain to stop (For example), the Nightwatcher may have scooped out a lot of the other things he regretted as well. It suddenly seems significant that his biggest regret that he thinks about is almost killing his brother. Not any of horrible things he actually did.

Modern Dalinar may well be a decent man because he doesn't have the weight of every bad thing he did, a gradual slide into evil where each bad choice makes the next one easier.  

EDIT: Another point for asking for an end to his pain - His ability (apparently contrary to biology according to the surgeons in WoR) to fight past his injuries. 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Tarion

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

40 minutes ago, Tarion said:

The difference between oldschool evil warlord Dalinar and modern Dalinar make a lot of sense if he's forgotten a lot of the nastier experiences of his life.

If, after losing his wife, he asked for his pain to stop (For example), the Nightwatcher may have scooped out a lot of the other things he regretted as well. It suddenly seems significant that his biggest regret that he thinks about is almost killing his brother. Not any of horrible things he actually did.

Modern Dalinar may well be a decent man because he doesn't have the weight of every bad thing he did, a gradual slide into evil where each bad choice makes the next one easier.  

I really like this. One of the best floated theories of boon/bane of Dalinar. But maybe it wasn't quite for the pain to stop, but to become a better man. For the same reasoning you gave: take out some of the worst things, and you become better as you aren't mired in guilt and the past.

[Tarion]

29 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I really like this. One of the best floated theories of boon/bane of Dalinar. But maybe it wasn't quite for the pain to stop, but to become a better man. For the same reasoning you gave: take out some of the worst things, and you become better as you aren't mired in guilt and the past.

Better man could be interesting, because it has a few different interpretations. On the one hand, he's a morally better man. 

On the other, he's also done a few things that seem to go beyond the limits of normal people, whether it's his recovery from injuries or catching a Chasmfiend's claw. He could well be a physically better man as well (Of course, stormlight on the route to Bondsmith are another potential source for that). 

[Fulminato he/him]

"I… Well, I’m a man of extremes, Navani. I discovered that when I was a youth. I’ve learned, repeatedly, that the only way to control those extremes is to dedicate my life to something. First it was Gavilar. Now it’s the Codes and the teachings of Nohadon. They’re the means by which I bind myself. Like the enclosure of a fire, meant to contain and control it.” WotK Chapter 64.

dalinar don't have forgot his yout's excess. but he don't want return the man was once, and don't indulge in his 'warlord memory' is a component of self restrain.

[maxal she/her]

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

Gavilar was away at the Shattered Plains during Dalinar's trip to the Valley, which is why Elhokar was in charge for the Roshone affair. 

I like your reasoning, and I agree he asked for something. This doesn't fit with the timeline though. 

Oh thanks for correcting me. I'll admit I wasn't sure about the timeline when I made my theory. So let's bar this idea, but I am still leaning towards Dalinar having asked to get something or have something he wanted accomplish. I am pretty the most prevalent theories are.... wrong. Just call it a gut feeling.

19 hours ago, Pattern said:

@maxal:Good points. I have to add another thought I'd like to hear your opinion of:

The Rift and Rathalas

is happening "34 year ago", Dalinar meets Shshshsh later, I think "28 years ago", so those events Kadash is referring to are probably not related to Shshshsh's death.

Another thing we assume is, that the event Kadash refers to is related to Shshshsh's death because Dalinar cannot remember it. This is likely but not necessary. Dalinar has forgotten everything about his wife, this does not mean that he hasn't forgotten anything else.

I am smelling the odour of fish, a red herring...

It is hard talking about the Rift we haven't gotten this flashback yet and many haven't read The Thrill, but needless to say, when I have been arguing Dalinar was a despicable human being, I was thinking of this chapter and... another one. So yeah, what Dalinar did is just plain awful. 

My thoughts are Kadash may be one of the last living human being having witnessed the man Dalinar once was, the last human being to have seen what Dalinar did on the battle field. Everyone else has died since. I definitely sense something coming out of this: Kadash says he respects the man Dalinar has become, but he may bet thinking the man is now pushing a tad too far and knowing how far Dalinar can go.... well needless to say nothing good can come out of it.

I do think he remembers his youth, just not his wife. He however never talks about it, he allowed Adolin to grow up thinking he is a hero.

[StormblessDave]

@Calderis That is an excellent theory.

Plot twist, Navani killed her 

[Aminar]

On 9/6/2017 at 5:00 PM, maxal said:

We do. Evi died ten years ago: neither Adolin nor Renarin were too young to not remember her and both were young enough to have been impacted by her death. While it is true some individuals are more resilient than others, dealing with your mother being brutally murdered is Big. Huge. Gigantic. I expect a child and a young teenager to have a reaction following such an event. Adolin especially must feel anger towards the culprit: he is very protective of his family. I can't say about Renarin, we do not know him enough yet, but the complete lack of response from the boys is suspicious. Either they do not know the truth and everyone agreed to lie to them to protect them or there is a large chunk of the story Brandon has omitted. 

Also, based on Adolin's inner monologue, I would argue he had a strong attachment to his mother. We know from WoB she had a strong influence on him. She wasn't some stranger he barely saw, she was his mother and I do not doubt he loved her dearly just as I do not doubt Renarin loved her too. We do not know much about the boys childhood, but we do know, Adolin at the very least, trailed after his father from one warcamp to the next. They knew their parents, they lived with them. 

It's also been ten years. In some ways the longest ten years of a person's life. (being a teenager is hard.) And kids sometimes handle that kind of trauma really well. It kind of slides over them because the context of what death means isn't really there. So them not having scars is probably characterization(although Adolin's way with women is probably the result of losing his mother). Renarin's emotions don't operate the same as a neurotypical person. At younger ages he'd have a much harder time making emotional connections with others, even his parents. So that likely(but not necessarily) insulated him from the trauma. I've seen the loss of a parent got both ways with kids on the spectrum. In both cases the circumstances behind the death have been a factor for how the memories are perceived. (I can't really go into more detail for confidentiality reasons) 

[maxal she/her]

3 hours ago, Aminar said:

It's also been ten years. In some ways the longest ten years of a person's life. (being a teenager is hard.) And kids sometimes handle that kind of trauma really well. It kind of slides over them because the context of what death means isn't really there. So them not having scars is probably characterization(although Adolin's way with women is probably the result of losing his mother). Renarin's emotions don't operate the same as a neurotypical person. At younger ages he'd have a much harder time making emotional connections with others, even his parents. So that likely(but not necessarily) insulated him from the trauma. I've seen the loss of a parent got both ways with kids on the spectrum. In both cases the circumstances behind the death have been a factor for how the memories are perceived. (I can't really go into more detail for confidentiality reasons) 

I do not disagree with you, I do agree Adolin's issues with women may may be, in part, tied to him losing his mother at a young age. I however feel brutal death is harder to deal with them say long sickness or accident. The boys mother did not just die: she was abducted and murdered. I agree Renarin being on the spectrum may explain the lack of reaction (I do not know anyone onto the spectrum, but it seemed to fit some of the typical reactions based on articles I have read), but Adolin? Very family-oriented, very attached to his loved ones, very emotional, very protective Adolin never had a reaction to his mother being killed? I don't buy it. It doesn't fit the character we have been given. This being said, I don't believe Brandon made a characterization error either. My thoughts are either Adolin had a reaction as a boy, but moved passed it or he shoved it inside, pretended it didn't bother him, as he currently doing with murdering Sadeas, tried to appear strong and resilient when really, it is just a gun waiting to be fired.

So really, I am in part waiting to read the flashback where this will be broached and in part waiting for Adolin to be forced to deal with it once his father tells him he has forgotten her (and potentially caused her death). Old wounds are easy to re-open given the right incentive.

Edited September 11, 2017 by maxal

[OathKeeper]

I read somewhere on here a theory that Dalinar asked to be like/replace Gavilar. I like that theory. 

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I do not disagree with you, I do agree Adolin's issues with women may may be, in part, tied to him losing his mother at a young age. I however feel brutal death is harder to deal with them say long sickness or accident. The boys mother did not just die: she was abducted and murdered. I agree Renarin being on the spectrum may explain the lack of reaction (I do not know anyone onto the spectrum, but it seemed to fit some of the typical reactions based on articles I have read), but Adolin? Very family-oriented, very attached to his loved ones, very emotional, very protective Adolin never had a reaction to his mother being killed? I don't buy it. It doesn't fit the character we have been given. This being said, I don't believe Brandon made a characterization error either. My thoughts are either Adolin had a reaction as a boy, but moved passed it or he shoved it inside, pretended it didn't bother him, as he currently doing with murdering Sadeas, tried to appear strong and resilient when really, it is just a gun waiting to be fired.

So really, I am in part waiting to read the flashback where this will be broached and in part waiting for Adolin to be forced to deal with it once his father tells him he has forgotten her (and potentially caused her death). Old wounds are easy to re-open given the right incentive.

Lets take this from another direction then. I grew up in a family that deer hunts. One of my earlier memories is from november of 88, shortly after I turned 2. I watched a deer being gutted. For me this is not a traumatic or horrifying memory. It's a moment of pure wonder. I was seeing how living things worked and it was fascinating. For people that did not grow up around this kind of thing it can seem brutal and terrible. Like when I visited a farm while my uncle was harvesting chickens. The brutality of it was disturbing. 

Adolin grew up in a society of warriors(compared to us) at war. He was exposed to the idea of death and conquest from the day he was born. And he was raised to that violence, trained to fight at a young age. His mother being killed somewhere else would be sad. Maybe drive him to obsessively be the best so he could make sure it didn't happen again(A strong part of who he is). Make him try to find an unattainable woman that lived up to his idealized memories of his mother. But it's unlikely to cause PTSD(which is what you're suggesting). If it happened while he was there and watching it probably would. But somewhere else. Probably not. 

Which is to say, with fiction its better to look for "what am I missing" than "I don't buy this because it isn't what I expect." 

I do this kind of thing for a living(helping troubled teens deal with their issues and work towards who they want to be). For me Adolin's personality is perfectly fitting. Not the only way he could go, but a way. A way that's believable, but less open than Dalinar's guilt, Kaladin's grief, or Shallan's trauma. Like how some people hide their emotions and others don't. 

[+Wax he/him]

I just can't believe it'll be as simple as Dalinar killed his wife.  It'll look like the rehash of Shallan's story.  Expecting BS to throw in a twist there.

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Lets take this from another direction then. I grew up in a family that deer hunts. One of my earlier memories is from november of 88, shortly after I turned 2. I watched a deer being gutted. For me this is not a traumatic or horrifying memory. It's a moment of pure wonder. I was seeing how living things worked and it was fascinating. For people that did not grow up around this kind of thing it can seem brutal and terrible. Like when I visited a farm while my uncle was harvesting chickens. The brutality of it was disturbing. 

Adolin grew up in a society of warriors(compared to us) at war. He was exposed to the idea of death and conquest from the day he was born. And he was raised to that violence, trained to fight at a young age. His mother being killed somewhere else would be sad. Maybe drive him to obsessively be the best so he could make sure it didn't happen again(A strong part of who he is). Make him try to find an unattainable woman that lived up to his idealized memories of his mother. But it's unlikely to cause PTSD(which is what you're suggesting). If it happened while he was there and watching it probably would. But somewhere else. Probably not. 

Which is to say, with fiction its better to look for "what am I missing" than "I don't buy this because it isn't what I expect." 

I do this kind of thing for a living(helping troubled teens deal with their issues and work towards who they want to be). For me Adolin's personality is perfectly fitting. Not the only way he could go, but a way. A way that's believable, but less open than Dalinar's guilt, Kaladin's grief, or Shallan's trauma. Like how some people hide their emotions and others don't. 

Well, I wasn't honestly suggesting PTSD nor lasting trauma: the story has stated often enough Adolin had an easy life exempt of hardships. I was saying I find it doubtful he had absolutely no reaction whatsoever which is what text book and other posters are currently suggesting. A reaction need not being PTSD, but the fact the event is currently treated as if it was a big nothing remains odd, to me at least. While it is true Adolin grew up in a warring society, I find it doubtful kidnapping and outright murder of women was common place. He may have grown up knowing his father may not make it back, but his mother? Abducted?

What I expected is emotion other than fond memories and a mild feeling of "I miss you". Whenever Adolin thinks of his mother, I do not get the sense the event by itself was terrible or even sad, just it happened and this is it. Finding out she died in horrible non natural causes make those scenes, I dunno, odd is the word which comes to mind. It may be I am looking for something which isn't there, maybe I do not have the right background for it, but when I read Kaladin breaking down because of Tien, Dalinar breaking down because of Gavilar and then Adolin is completely, totally, absolutely fine with his mother being murdered? Like it is a no issue? Like "oh she's dead, so what?". I don't know. I feel I am missing pieces of the puzzle right now and I dunno if the pieces I will get will be sufficient to draft a clear history.

We'll see once we get to read the rest of the story, maybe it'll make more sense or maybe not.

[ProfessorMLyon he/him]

How do we know that Shshshsh is dead? We only have the word of several characters, and if I am reading this topic right, perhaps only from Dalinar himself! If there is one thing I have learned from reading Brandon Sanderson is that you do not count anybody dead until you see the body fall down at your feet, impaled by several shardblades, with the head removed. And not even then!

Perhaps Shshshsh wasn't kidnapped at all, but either led the rebellion in the city or at least sympathized with it. Feeling betrayed, Dalinar reacts as the Blackthorn would and there is a bloodbath, scores of people dead. At the end, Dalinar believes that he has killed his wife, but she is only mostly dead and survives. Maybe she has now sworn vengeance upon the Kholinars and is working with Odium to destroy the world. 

Of course, no evidence to support such a theory, and I have no idea what she would have been doing for the last ten years. I just like speculating. 

 

[+robardin he/him]

On 9/12/2017 at 5:00 PM, ProfessorMLyon said:

How do we know that Shshshsh is dead? We only have the word of several characters, and if I am reading this topic right, perhaps only from Dalinar himself! If there is one thing I have learned from reading Brandon Sanderson is that you do not count anybody dead until you see the body fall down at your feet, impaled by several shardblades, with the head removed. And not even then!

Since this is the Oathbreaker sub-forum, I can say without spoiler tags that c'mon, everyone at Dalinar's wedding to Navani must think Shshshsh is dead.

And oh - a minor Unfettered II / The Thrill spoiler reference in a stylistic question:

Spoiler

Do we have to keep calling her Shshshsh now that we know her name was Evi, or only when that info from The Thrill shows up in an Oathbreaker chapter?

Anyway, the way the others are surprised and shocked that he doesn't remember anything about her life or death is about what you'd expect from a "OMG you totally got Nightwatcher'ed bro" reaction, versus a sudden thought of "OMG we only ever heard of her death through Dalinar, and now even he can't recall the details?"

I think they all KNOW she's dead. Like, seen and buried the body.

As for the comment about Sanderson not "really" killing characters.... That's kind of overblown. Ym's dead, Tien is dead, the other dead Bridge Four members who were killed are dead... Dead is dead. The "ha ha, not dead" characters like Szeth and Jasnah, or You-Know-Who from Mistborn (I'm not going to bother to spoiler a name drop like that), were NEVER supposed to be "all dead", which fact was heavily hinted at early on, or their not-dead scenes were pretty closely following their left-for-dead one.

 

[Hyarmenatan]

I've always thought on Dalinar's boone and bane that he asked to have his jealousness towards Gavilar to be erased. His urge to attack older brother to take his kingdom and woman was mentioned several times as a problem Dalinar had. However, if he asked to become a better man like Maxal suggested or for getting rid off the pain he felt, removing jeoulesness towards brother would also could be a part of fixing his character, so it works very well. And his bane would be forgetting Shshshsh in the process too. 

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

I've always thought on Dalinar's boone and bane that he asked to have his jealousness towards Gavilar to be erased. His urge to attack older brother to take his kingdom and woman was mentioned several times as a problem Dalinar had. However, if he asked to become a better man like Maxal suggested or for getting rid off the pain he felt, removing jeoulesness towards brother would also could be a part of fixing his character, so it works very well. And his bane would be forgetting Shshshsh in the process too. 

I wonder if maybe he didn't ask to be cured of his addictions. He clearly had issues with alcohol and the Thrill in the past but by the time we see him after Szeth he's sober as a stone and lacks the battle lust Sadeas craved. 

So part of the process to keep him clear of his alcoholism/keep him sober might have been clearing the traumatic loss of his wife. Especially if Thrill addiction and/or alcohol played into his wife's death the way drinking played into Gavilar.

[Calderis he/him]

40 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I wonder if maybe he didn't ask to be cured of his addictions. He clearly had issues with alcohol and the Thrill in the past but by the time we see him after Szeth he's sober as a stone and lacks the battle lust Sadeas craved. 

So part of the process to keep him clear of his alcoholism/keep him sober might have been clearing the traumatic loss of his wife. Especially if Thrill addiction and/or alcohol played into his wife's death the way drinking played into Gavilar.

He visited the Nightwatcher prior to Gavilar's death. If this were his boon, he wouldn't have been drunk at the feat that night. 

[Fulminato he/him]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

I wonder if maybe he didn't ask to be cured of his addictions. He clearly had issues with alcohol and the Thrill in the past but by the time we see him after Szeth he's sober as a stone and lacks the battle lust Sadeas craved. 

So part of the process to keep him clear of his alcoholism/keep him sober might have been clearing the traumatic loss of his wife. Especially if Thrill addiction and/or alcohol played into his wife's death the way drinking played into Gavilar.

i think the alcohol isn't an addiction, but something else.

the trill

 

Navani smiled at him. There wasn’t enough wine in the world to prepare him for the gaze behind the smile, so piercing, so appraising.

“Well, I suppose I can forgive that,” she said. “Though you did spend the next two de cades making certain I thought you hated me.”
“I did nothing of the sort!”
“Oh? And how else was I to interpret your coldness? The way you would often leave the room when I arrived?”
“Containing myself,” Dalinar said. “I had made my decision.”

WotK Chapter 64.

and if cannot leave the same room her stay drink to forgot his desire for navani

Edited September 14, 2017 by Fulminato