Shinovar and the Cognitive Relm

[Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor]

I have been re reading TWOK and read Rysn's interlude (I-4) today.  She talks about how the grass does not retract and how there are no spren there.  She says that she assumed the grass was just slow and took longer to retract but she realized that is not the case, it just does not retract at all.  So that got me thinking about why there are no spren in Shinovar and how Hesina told Kaladin, in one of his flashbacks, that all things have a spren.  If that is true, then the lack of spren in Shinovar might mean that nothing has a spren there and explain why the grass does not retract, because it is not "alive" like the grass in other parts of Roshar.  For that to be true, I think Shinovar would have to be cut off from the cognitive relm somehow.  Does that seem possible to any of you?  I can see it being the case with everything that is different there but it seems kind of crazy.  Any  thoughts? 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor said:

I have been re reading TWOK and read Rysn's interlude (I-4) today.  She talks about how the grass does not retract and how there are no spren there.  She says that she assumed the grass was just slow and took longer to retract but she realized that is not the case, it just does not retract at all.  So that got me thinking about why there are no spren in Shinovar and how Hesina told Kaladin, in one of his flashbacks, that all things have a spren.  If that is true, then the lack of spren in Shinovar might mean that nothing has a spren there and explain why the grass does not retract, because it is not "alive" like the grass in other parts of Roshar.  For that to be true, I think Shinovar would have to be cut off from the cognitive relm somehow.  Does that seem possible to any of you?  I can see it being the case with everything that is different there but it seems kind of crazy.  Any  thoughts? 

The main there I've seen and agree with is that as the Highstorms progress over Roshar, they weaken the barriers between the realms on Roshar. By the time they reach Shinovar, they've essentially run their course and the barriers remain intact. So it's not "cut off" per se, it's just normal whereas the rest of Roshar is more transient realmatically.

Edit: @Steeldancer has a pretty good thread on it that I don't remember the title of. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Calderis

[Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor]

Thats a good point.  And that makes a lot more sense with the last desolation happening in Shinovar (as a few theories have said/suggested). If it was cut off then you probably could not soul cast and that would have been a really bad place to fight as a KR.  Do you think that has something to do why there are "normal" creatures in Shinovar instead of the crustation like one in the rest of Roshar?

[+Extesian he/him]

Yeah I think the lack of spren is because the realmic boundaries in the West v are stronger. 

As to the different animals

Quote

QUESTION

I get the impression after reading Stormlight 1 and 2 that a lot of what you would consider to be flora is actually something like coral in the ocean which is actually an animal. So is there actually any flora on Roshar outside out of Shinovar…

BRANDON SANDERSON

Almost all the things you see as flora are actual flora. Like, rockbuds are flora, trees are flora, shalebark is not, and some of the things like that - haspers are not, and some of these things are more - are animal life, are fauna. But grass is actually a flora, and trees. One of the big adaptations they’ve had to make is that they have to use crem, so a lot of the tree that you’ll find on Roshar, they will be using crem that falls - they use this to create shells, they use this to create bark, they use this in a LOT of different ways, the minerals there are very important because they’re not getting from the soil what plants on our soil get from soil, a lot of them do. All of your minerals and things have to come from the crem. Which the farmers already knew.

There are chickens and so on in Shinovar simply, I think, because there is soil and the requirements for that branch of evolution. Those things couldn't evolve in the rest of the continent because Highstorms swept away the soil. Instead you get all these things with shells because they're getting their nutrients and minerals from crem.

And soulcasting (Oathbringer spoiler for a chapter that has not yet been released as a sample chapter)

Spoiler

The interlude showing Kaza, the soulcaster, has her soulcasting in Aimia, further West of Shinovar, so unless that's where Origin is and Aimia gets Highstorms, that shows soulcasting can be done where the Highstorms don't reach. Rysn also activates a fabrial in Shinovar (though that's not the same as soulcasting)

 

[Steeldancer he/him]

My realmatic theory in my signature holds my ideas. 

Essentially I believe that because the highstorms don't touch shinovar, the realms aren't as close together, and therefore spren cannot appear. This is based on the idea that the constant highstorms drive the realms closer together on Roshar. 

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

4 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

My realmatic theory in my signature holds my ideas. 

Essentially I believe that because the highstorms don't touch shinovar, the realms aren't as close together, and therefore spren cannot appear. This is based on the idea that the constant highstorms drive the realms closer together on Roshar. 

It will be interesting to see if the Everstorm will affect this situation.

[Steeldancer he/him]

25 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

It will be interesting to see if the Everstorm will affect this situation.

Oathbringer spoilers: 

Spoiler

It wasn't carrying stormlight or voidlight, far as we've seen. 

 

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

14 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Oathbringer spoilers: 

  Hide contents

It wasn't carrying stormlight or voidlight, far as we've seen. 

 

Oh, I know that now. I think I actually started a topic on it before the chapter answering my question was released. But the Everstorm still carries voidspren. That's what is making me wonder.

[Ryder]

7 hours ago, Extesian said:

Yeah I think the lack of spren is because the realmic boundaries in the West v are stronger. 

As to the different animals

There are chickens and so on in Shinovar simply, I think, because there is soil and the requirements for that branch of evolution. Those things couldn't evolve in the rest of the continent because Highstorms swept away the soil. Instead you get all these things with shells because they're getting their nutrients and minerals from crem.

And soulcasting (Oathbringer spoiler for a chapter that has not yet been released as a sample chapter)

  Reveal hidden contents

The interlude showing Kaza, the soulcaster, has her soulcasting in Aimia, further West of Shinovar, so unless that's where Origin is and Aimia gets Highstorms, that shows soulcasting can be done where the Highstorms don't reach. Rysn also activates a fabrial in Shinovar (though that's not the same as soulcasting)

 

Oathbringer spoilers

Spoiler

In the Kaza interlude, the captain of the ship is able to attract some spren despite being west of Shinovar

Quote

The captain drew anticipationspren as he waited--ribbons that waved in the wind--and Kaza could see the beasts beyond, the creatures that accompanied the spren.

 

That makes me think that there is something special/different about Shinovar specifically, moreso than it just being far to the west where the storms are weaker.

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, Ryder said:

Oathbringer spoilers

  Hide contents

In the Kaza interlude, the captain of the ship is able to attract some spren despite being west of Shinovar

 

That makes me think that there is something special/different about Shinovar specifically, moreso than it just being far to the west where the storms are weaker.

Shinovar is surrounded on all sides by mountains that break the storms for it. It's a valley that is protected from the highstorms.

Yes there are areas further west still effected, but they are still unprotected and have to deal with the storms. 

Oathbringer spoilers. 

Spoiler

They deal with a storm at sea in the very interlude in question. 

 

[Nicrosil he/him]

I always thought that the Shin were worldhoppers and brought their Earth-like plants and animals to Roshar with them. They settled in the only place that could support their old way of life, in a valley very far west from the Highstorms. The Iriali are just to the north are basically confirmed to be worldhoppers, though I don't know if that helps or hurts my theory.

Oathbringer spoilers

Spoiler

Plus, we hear of a "Shin invasion;" this could be from the very start of the Shin's history, before they settled in Shinovar?

As for if Shinovar is cut off from the Shadesmar, maybe? Everything in the cosmere has a cognitive aspect, and therefore a representation in the Shadesmar, even if Shinovar doesn't have spren. Like others have pointed out, it might be harder to use Knight Radiant abilities or Soulcasters in Shinovar, though.

Mistborn Secret History spoilers

Spoiler

We see the Scadrial version of the Cognitive realm; even though Scadrial doesn't have spren everything still has a representation there.

 

[Yata he/him]

5 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I always thought that the Shin were worldhoppers and brought their Earth-like plants and animals to Roshar with them. They settled in the only place that could support their old way of life, in a valley very far west from the Highstorms. The Iriali are just to the north are basically confirmed to be worldhoppers, though I don't know if that helps or hurts my theory.

This was a popular theory I don't remember if it was debunked or something similar.

5 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

As for if Shinovar is cut off from the Shadesmar, maybe? Everything in the cosmere has a cognitive aspect, and therefore a representation in the Shadesmar, even if Shinovar doesn't have spren. Like others have pointed out, it might be harder to use Knight Radiant abilities or Soulcasters in Shinovar, though.

As far as my Realmatic Knowledge goes it's not possible to cut off something from the CR unless nobody lives there and nobody think to that places (and we know this could not be the Shinovar case).

About the KR's ability I think they will be fine at least the one that doesn't require to jump between Realms (always in your case, Soulcasting and Elsecalling) witch will requires more Kinetic Investiture to operate (at least Elsecalling).

About your Mistborn Secret History Spoiler, I think Shinovar has Spren almost like the rest of Roshar (maybe lesser in number) but simply those Spren didn't "pop up" with a manifestation in the physical realm. Nothing prevent a Spren from moving around without the planet so I believe there are Spren who "pass for Shinovar to go somewhere". I am unsure but there are some clues about the Nightwatcher to be in Shinovar.