[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[Pammie]

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The way she spoke, she expected to be there when Kaladin… Well, he’d never considered that before, though she went with him everywhere else. Could he convince her to wait outside? She’d still listen, if not sneak in to watch. Stormfather. His life just kept getting stranger. He tried— unsuccessfully—to banish the image of lying in bed with a woman, Syl sitting on the headboard and shouting out encouragement and advice.…

Quote

They eventually betrayed us. Do not forget that.

“Why?” Dalinar asked. “What happened? What changed them?”

The Stormfather fell silent.

“Please,” Dalinar said. “Tell me.”

Some things are better left forgotten, the voice said to him. 

 

Wow, I cannot believe that we already know the reason why the Knights Radiant turned their backs on mankind on the Day of Recreance. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Pammie

[Hischier]

15 minutes ago, swieczq said:

I haven't had time to read all pages of this thread, but from what i've seen most people think Mr. T is Bad News™ - IMO he's not as bad as most think.

True, in the future he'll try to take the "highking" seat, but at the moment he's not in position to do it. At the moment he's in position to truly help Dalinar unite Roshar - having Diagram and lots of other resources.

#VoteForMrT!

It's probably just the ordering assassinations, the draining of people's (who won't be missed) blood to maybe get DeathRattles, and the causing an entire kingdom to fall into chaos resulting in a bloody civil war so he could take the throne.  Other than that I agree, he seems like a pretty decent guy.

[+robardin he/him]

3 minutes ago, Elena said:

Guys one thing... I know we all keep forgetting about it, but what about Elhokar's son? His infant son? Safe, or is he a goner? What the hell is happening in Kholinar, I need to know yesterday.

Yeah, I was thinking last week in the "why wasn't Elhokar in Dalinar's map meeting" and "where is the Honorblade" discussions that perhaps he had taken the Windrunner Honorblade and flown off to Kholinar to rescue his wife and child.

That was when he was least nominally still in command in Urithiru. He may still get to do that, but on Dalinar's sufferance, as he's now firmly in control of who gets that Honorblade.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Thanks @Calderis! That WoB is very interesting. I feel tempted to open a topic around it actually.

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Thanks @Calderis! That WoB is very interesting. I feel tempted to open a topic around it actually.

Yes, definitely food for thought.

 

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

Hey, only got to page 7 here (gotta leave now, so I'll leave this for you to roam) and till there I only saw one person mentioning this as something weird:
 

Spoiler

“We can’t just keep acting like a bunch of thugs,” Gavilar said. “We can’t rob every city we pass, feast every night. We need discipline; we need to hold the land we have. We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.”

Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?

Emphasis mine.
What's there to find out? He certainly feels ashamed of it. Normally I'd think it's the killing of a kid but a few lines earlier we get this:
 

Spoiler

“What do we do with them, Dalinar?” Gavilar asked, waving down toward the crowds of civilians the soldiers were rounding up. “Tens of thousands of people. They won’t be cowed easily; they won’t like that you killed their highlord and his heir. Those people will resist us for years. I can feel it.”

Emphasis mine. 
So Gavilar already knows of the killing of the kid but what if there wasn't such killing? What if Dalinar couldn't bring himself to do it? What if this could beacome a politic problem for Gavilar? What if this makes him be a little more like those soft, corrupt brightlords they are fighting? 
Forgiving the heir might be troublesome enough to bring shame into Dalinar's thoughts and keep him wondering "what if Gavilar finds out".

Just a thought. Feel free to bring it down

[Nymeros]

OMG!

Useless epigraphs!

Syls gonna watch Kaladin while he's having sex!

SylBlade description!

Hilariously useless Azish! Where are you Sigzil, give some tips!

Renarin used surges unconsciously and its awesome! Stop with the pointless Truthwatcher theories please!!!

Taravangian!

Elokhar! Quit being a chump! And take Bridge 4 as your Squad yo! All you need is the Windrunner order!

Listener forms of power beyond Stormform!

Where's my Eshonai???

[vividox]

For the record, I think the only shame Dalinar feels there is shame for his feelings for Navani. That whole interlude is framed by Dalinar internalizing his feelings for Navani, not wanting to take a wife unless commanded to do so, and never wanting Gavilar to find out about his feelings for Navani.

Due to the placement of that line, it's entirely possible that there is some kind of trickery going on with the heir/wife, but honestly, I feel like Sanderson just didn't want to write such a gruesome scene. I guess we'll RAFO eventually. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

25 minutes ago, Elena said:

Guys one thing... I know we all keep forgetting about it, but what about Elhokar's son? His infant son? Safe, or is he a goner? What the hell is happening in Kholinar, I need to know yesterday.

I was thinking.. maybe Elhokar's son will play a role in the second part of the series? The only reason I'm considering this is that babies go together  There are already 2 ( him and Kaladin's brother ) so maybe the next generation is hinted. Also I don't think the baby is dead, what would be the point of mentioning and never show him ? My guess is we'll most likely see him in this book

[Salkara]

My thoughts:

Parshmen/Voidbringers

• Upon reflection, it seems obvious that they're not all in forms of power. Eshonai's POV chapters made it clear that there was an element of chance when bonding during a highstorm (unless you'd captured the spren ahead of time). As such, some parshmen gained ordinary Listener forms while some gained Voidbringer forms.
• What did the Everstorm actually do? Gavilar talked about capturing a special spren. I've seen speculation that he was referring to an Unmade. Perhaps that Unmade allowed Listeners to gain Voidbringer forms, and capturing it put all Voidbringers into an arrested state (e.g. slaveform). In my mind, this would mean the Everstorm released the captured Unmade and allowed parshmen to gain forms again.
• The OB summary blurb indicates Kaladin will have some sort of ethical dilemma regarding the Listeners. To me, this means that some (likely most) of the newly empowered parshmen will be acting on their own and not under the guidance of Odium. It doesn't seem like Kaladin has any qualms about killing Voidbringers, so I have to assume he'll be in contact with Listeners who aren't Voidbringers.
• Anyone else think there might be some voidbinder equivalent to the Nahel bond? It would explain why a thousand stormforms couldn't withstand Dalinar's army. None of them would have progressed far enough in their bonds. Also lends credence to the idea that not all parshmen became Voidbringers. Only the ones who were odious enough got Voidbringer forms.

Elhokar

• Future Lightweaver. He's looking for patterns in why some people are better than others at certain things. Here, specifically, he's looking for a pattern in Kaladin's heroism and leadership.

Renarin

• Probably won't see Glys (aside from Shardblade form) until we get a Renarin (or Rock) POV chapter. I assume Glys is invisible to other just like Syl.

Dalinar

• If he didn't kill that kid, I'd be willing to wager the kid was involved with his wife's death.

Taravangian

• Looking forward to his appearance. We don't near enough about this guy, so more screen time for him is definitely something for which I'm excited.
• Anybody else think "his" Radiant is actually one of Nale's Skybreakers? Nale was keeping track of Szeth well enough that I assume he knows about Mr. T's machinations. I for one will be on the lookout for a man with dark brown skin and a crescent-shaped scar in the king's entourage.

Adolin

• The scenes were touching, but does anyone actually believe he's going to get away with murder? He murdered Sadeas. Yeah, everyone hates Sadeas; we're supposed to hate him. I think we're also supposed to dislike what Adolin did, and I can't really think of a time where one of Brandon's characters commits murder and gets away with it cleanly.

[Azul he/him]

1 hour ago, Ryder said:

Yeah, horses normally have rectangular or oval-shaped pupils.

ah, I knew goats and toads did but not horses as well.

[Ryder]

3 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I was thinking.. maybe Elhokar's son will play a role in the second part of the series? The only reason I'm considering this is that babies go together  There are already 2 ( him and Kaladin's brother ) so maybe the next generation is hinted. Also I don't think the baby is dead, what would be the point of mentioning and never show him ? My guess is we'll most likely see him in this book

Here's a crazy idea I just had.  Everyone likes to speculate about this epigraph: 

Quote

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

We know now that some of the parshendi/voidbringers are heading to Kholinar, and we know that the ones in Azir are making "outrageous" demands.  What if the parshendi end up putting Kholinar under siege and say they will only end it if the people execute Elohokar's son?  If conditions in the city got bad enough they could potentially end up in a scenario fitting the epigraph.

[+robardin he/him]

21 minutes ago, vividox said:

For the record, I think the only shame Dalinar feels there is shame for his feelings for Navani. That whole interlude is framed by Dalinar internalizing his feelings for Navani, not wanting to take a wife unless commanded to do so, and never wanting Gavilar to find out about his feelings for Navani.

 

So I went back to re-read that passage more closely, and it's a little of both of what I thought before. However, I don't think Navani's involved.

 

Quote

 

He reached gingerly with his right hand, the less mangled one, and raised a mug of wine to his lips. It was the only drug he cared about for the pain — and maybe it would help with the shame too. Both feelings seemed stark, now that the Thrill had receded and left him deflated.

“What do we do with them, Dalinar?” Gavilar asked, waving down toward the crowds of civilians the soldiers were rounding up. “Tens of thousands of people. They won’t be cowed easily; they won’t like that you killed their highlord and his heir. Those people will resist us for years. I can feel it.”

...

“We can’t just keep acting like a bunch of thugs,” Gavilar said. “We can’t rob every city we pass, feast every night. We need discipline; we need to hold the land we have. We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.”

Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?

...

“[Oathbringer is] yours now,” Gavilar said. “By the time we’re done, I’ll have it so that nobody even thinks of Sunmaker anymore. Just House Kholin and Alethkar.”

He walked away. Dalinar rammed the Shardblade into the stone and leaned back, closing his eyes again and remembering the sound of a brave boy crying.

 

The Thrill had masked his shame as well as his physical pain - which suggests the shame stems from something he'd done while riding The Thrill. Besides, while Dalinar expresses internal shame in other passages based on his attraction to his brother's wife, that's always been in her presence, and she's not at this battle, nor even tangentially a topic of conversation between the two.

However, Gavilar does know, or believe, that Dalinar killed both "their highlord and his heir" - the heir being the boy. So the shame isn't about keeping Gavilar from thinking he did so.

On the other other hand, closing his eyes and remembering "a brave boy crying" as soon as he's alone, that sounds pretty much exactly what I would call "shame". It's certainly what's foremost on his mind at that particular moment, and one would assume, what was shaming him to the point of distraction earlier.

So back to this thought again: is it possible that Dalinar didn't kill the boy, but did something else that would be shameful, not just in his own mind, but in Gavilar's estimation of him? Or was it just the way in which he did it?
 

Edited September 19, 2017 by robardin

[mariapapadia she/her]

1 minute ago, Ryder said:

Here's a crazy idea I just had.  Everyone likes to speculate about this epigraph: 

We know now that some of the parshendi/voidbringers are heading to Kholinar, and we know that the ones in Azir are making "outrageous" demands.  What if the parshendi end up putting Kholinar under siege and say they will only end it if the people execute Elohokar's son?  If conditions in the city got bad enough they could potentially end up in a scenario fitting the epigraph.

Yeah, that crossed my mind given the disscusions last week, but I didn't follow that close to see if this would fit or not. I guess every baby/child will trigger some sort of attention now 

[Michael Portz he/him]

53 minutes ago, Pammie said:

 

Wow, I cannot believe that we already know the reason why the Knights Radiant turned their backs on mankind on the Day of Recreance. 

You made me *ROTFL*, have an upvote :-)

[+Spicker]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

So back to this thought again: is it possible that Dalinar didn't kill the boy, but did something else that would be shameful, not just in his own mind, but in Gavilar's estimation of him? Or was it just the way in which he did it?

That was the exact passage that I was thinking about. Everything that you highlighted leads me to believe that we are missing something here. He is ashamed of something that Gavilar doesn't know about, and Navani is not mentioned in the whole scene, so I don't think it has to do with her. When alone, his mind goes back to the boy, which leads me to believe he's involved. 
I agree with the two possibilities you posited. He's either ashamed of something he did while NOT killing the boy, or he is ashamed of how he did it. One other possibility could be that he doesn't want Gavilar to know how ashamed he is of the things they are doing, but that fits less with the conversation they have in this scene.

[vividox]

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

 

So I went back to re-read that passage more closely, and it's a little of both of what I thought before. However, I don't think Navani's involved.

 

The Thrill had masked his shame as well as his physical pain - which suggests the shame stems from something he'd done while riding The Thrill. Besides, while Dalinar expresses internal shame in other passages based on his attraction to his brother's wife, that's always been in her presence, and she's not at this battle, nor even tangentially a topic of conversation between the two.

However, Gavilar does know, or believe, that Dalinar killed both "their highlord and his heir" - the heir being the boy. So the shame isn't about keeping Gavilar from thinking he did so.

On the other other hand, closing his eyes and remembering "a brave boy crying" as soon as he's alone, that sounds pretty much exactly what I would call "shame". It's certainly what's foremost on his mind at that particular moment, and one would assume, what was shaming him to the point of distraction earlier.

So back to this thought again: is it possible that Dalinar didn't kill the boy, but did something else that would be shameful, not just in his own mind, but in Gavilar's estimation of him? Or was it just the way in which he did it?
 

Good analysis. Put that way, it definitely does seem to have been about the altercation with the wife/boy and not Navani.

So, getting particularly gruesome...

Quote

 

Tanalan lay on the ground here, blood surrounding him. A beautiful woman was draped across him, weeping. Only one other person was in the small chamber: a young boy. Six, perhaps seven. Tears streaked the child’s face, and he struggled to lift his father’s Shardblade in two hands.

Dalinar loomed in the doorway.

“You can’t have my daddy,” the boy said, words distorted by his sorrow. Painspren crawled around the floor. “You can’t. You… you…” His voice fell to a whisper. “Daddy said… we fight monsters. And with faith, we will win.…”

 

Emphasis mine. So... Dalinar is in full Thrill mode, sees a woman he describes as "beautiful", she is alone except for her child, the child says "You can't have my daddy," so... is it possible Dalinar's response was "If I can't have your daddy, I'll have your mommy?" That seems particularly dark, even for what we know the Thrill to be. Still, I can't help but think this is a possibility.

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Spicker said:

He's either ashamed of something he did while NOT killing the boy, or he is ashamed of how he did it. One other possibility could be that he doesn't want Gavilar to know how ashamed he is of the things they are doing, but that fits less with the conversation they have in this scene.

Also, his recalling "the sound of a brave boy crying" there suggests either or both of two things:

- it's linked to what he's ashamed of 

- it's the last memory he has of the boy

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Its funny how perspectives can change so quickly. 

End of WoR: Szeth and Dalinar will be an interesting relationship, I hope Szeth stays away from him for a while and gives Dalinar a chance to embrace his Bondsmith duties so he won't try to kill Szeth as soon as he appears

Last line of chapter 12 OB: Szeth!!! Go to Urithiru pronto! Dalinar needs you to show him the light.

On the Rift, I think he just killed the boy. Although the rape idea sounds disturbing but plausible.

Edited September 19, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, vividox said:

Good analysis. Put that way, it definitely does seem to have been about the altercation with the wife/boy and not Navani.

So, getting particularly gruesome...

Emphasis mine. So... Dalinar is in full Thrill mode, sees a woman he describes as "beautiful", she is alone except for her child, the child says "You can't have my daddy," so... is it possible Dalinar's response was "If I can't have your daddy, I'll have your mommy?" That seems particularly dark, even for what we know the Thrill to be. Still, I can't help but think this is a possibility.

I'm leaning towards no, specifically because this is a Sanderson book. 

This is already pretty dark for him.

[KidWayne he/him]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Not going to happen. This is a sanderbook, and adolin is a main character. there's no way he'll avoid thrauma and suffering.

To quote someone unconventionally wise: if writers were good people, they would write about cute fluffy bunnies

Woah, there. You can only make that argument (i.e. authors in general and Sanderson specifically) if you have a utilitarian ethic. 

I disagree with your argument and utilitarianism in general (read Huxley's A Brave New World for a rational realization of a utilitarian society). Suffering is a necessary part of personal growth; it is a result of living in a world in which others' free will allows them to choose to act selfishly. Overcoming our own selfishness for the benefit of others.is painful, but it is beautiful too. Some might even consider it foundational to love.

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Just now, Calderis said:

I'm leaning towards no, specifically because this is a Sanderson book. 

This is already pretty dark for him.

Yes, thats the main reason why the idea doesn't entirely fit. Brandon just doesn't do those things, even if he briefly mentions them elsewhere. And I just think he didn't write the death of the child because he couldn't. Reading a beloved character, and paragon of honor butchering a 7 year old...yeah, wrong author.

[Guest Edonidd]

Can't get the image out of my head of dour stoic Dalinar going all LEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!!

 

Cracking me up still 8 hours after i first read it.

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, WhiteLeeopard said:

Yes, thats the main reason why the idea doesn't entirely fit. Brandon just doesn't do those things, even if he briefly mentions them elsewhere. And I just think he didn't write the death of the child because he couldn't. Reading a beloved character, and paragon of honor butchering a 7 year old...yeah, wrong author.

Plus The Thrill doesn't incite sexual lust, just bloodlust.

[Nicrosil he/him]

Here's the thing with Mr T. We already have one villain switching sides between Words of Radiance and Oathbringer in Nale; I doubt Brandon would do that twice. Plus, Brandon basically wrote Edgedancer to show Nale's redemption so it didn't come out of the blue. 

No, I think that Mr T. is going to be a new Amaram, someone the audience knows is a scumbag who shouldn't be trusted, but the characters don't. 

As for the shipping wars, my crack theory is that Shallan will pull a Rand al'Thor and end up marrying Kaladin and Adolin and Renarin and Szeth. I refuse to be persuaded otherwise.