[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[+robardin he/him]

4 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

Can't get the image out of my head of dour stoic Dalinar going all LEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!!

 

Cracking me up still 8 hours after i first read it.

Um... Reading a flashback of a young Blackthorn Dalinar rampaging and apparently killing a seven year old boy,... cracked you up?

*backs away slowly*

[Elena she/her]

47 minutes ago, vividox said:

For the record, I think the only shame Dalinar feels there is shame for his feelings for Navani. That whole interlude is framed by Dalinar internalizing his feelings for Navani, not wanting to take a wife unless commanded to do so, and never wanting Gavilar to find out about his feelings for Navani.

Due to the placement of that line, it's entirely possible that there is some kind of trickery going on with the heir/wife, but honestly, I feel like Sanderson just didn't want to write such a gruesome scene. I guess we'll RAFO eventually. 

Agreed that he was likely thinking about Navani, but I'm also about 96% sure that he left alive the son, and about fifteen or so years later he will leade a rebellion, kidnap Shshsh and take her at the Roft where it all began. Then Dalinar will kill him.

[vividox]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm leaning towards no, specifically because this is a Sanderson book. 

This is already pretty dark for him.

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Yes, thats the main reason why the idea doesn't entirely fit. Brandon just doesn't do those things, even if he briefly mentions them elsewhere. And I just think he didn't write the death of the child because he couldn't. Reading a beloved character, and paragon of honor butchering a 7 year old...yeah, wrong author.

I'm wont to agree, but just to play Devil's Advocate...

This book is about showing how the Blackthorn was, essentially, a bad guy. Something about his past moved him to use Old Magic to change himself. I haven't read Unfettered, but someone mentioned above that it gets worse. We've already seen allusions to rape in Alethi society, and painting the Blackthorn in this light could potentially be huge narrative justification for whatever happened at the Nightwatcher. 

[Guest Edonidd]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Um... Reading a flashback of a young Blackthorn Dalinar rampaging and apparently killing a seven year old boy,... cracked you up?

*backs away slowly*

If you don't have any idea what I'm talking about why would you even reply?  And especially why would you reply by making an assumption how I felt about what you assume happened off screen?

 

Leroy Jenkins is an old school internet meme (before they were even called memes) about one guy trying to organize a battle and tell everyone what to do what to do, while one guy just pulls out his shard hammer and charges into battle.

[Hischier]

18 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Yes, thats the main reason why the idea doesn't entirely fit. Brandon just doesn't do those things, even if he briefly mentions them elsewhere. And I just think he didn't write the death of the child because he couldn't. Reading a beloved character, and paragon of honor butchering a 7 year old...yeah, wrong author.

 I don't think it being on screen makes a difference, it's the fact that it happened that's the issue.  He's ok showing a kid get killed. 

From Mistborn, although I don't think it's really a spoiler for anything. 

Spoiler

 

“In the mists, beyond the eyesight of regular people, the soldier drew out a dagger and slit the boy’s throat. Vin jumped, shocked, as the sounds of the boy’s struggling tapered off. The guard dropped the body, then grabbed it by a leg and began to drag it away.”

...

“Actually, they seemed a little more chatty, now that the screams had stopped.”

Excerpt From: Sanderson, Brandon. “The Mistborn Trilogy.” 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Hischier

[Asrael he/him]

13 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Yes, thats the main reason why the idea doesn't entirely fit. Brandon just doesn't do those things, even if he briefly mentions them elsewhere. And I just think he didn't write the death of the child because he couldn't. Reading a beloved character, and paragon of honor butchering a 7 year old...yeah, wrong author.

I fully believe we will be seeing the "death" of this child in the future:
 

Quote

He remembered Kadash, bloodied, kneeling on the ground having retched until his stomach was empty. A hardened soldier who had encountered something so vile that even he was shaken.

He’d left to become an ardent the next day.

“The Rift,” Dalinar whispered. “Rathalas.”

“Dark times need not be dredged up,” Kadash said. “This isn’t about… that day, Dalinar. It’s about today, and what you’ve been spreading among the scribes. Talk of these things you’ve seen in visions.”

So clearly something happened at the Rift that was SO horrible that this soldier couldn't handle it. You don't build up that kind of drama to just answer it two chapters later. I suspect that we will be seeing more from Rathalas.

[scifan he/him]

2 hours ago, Mulk said:

Renarin is like my son, or so I think. My son is high-functioning autistic; I'm of the opinion Renarin is similar, higher functioning and perhaps Asperger's, but on the spectrum regardless.

My son makes a lot of people uncomfortable.  Even me at times.  He doesn't assimilate data like I do, doesn't react to people like I do, worries about the strangest stuff, doesn't emotionally respond like most people are used to, gets overwhelmed by simple things and lets some really big ones just roll off of him.

Anyway.  I bring this up because Renarin's apparent leap forward as a Radiant is exactly how my son has developed over his whole life.  There has been no gradual learning for him (and he's 17 now).  There have been periods of no learning at all, followed by these massive leaps in understanding and adaptability that are unpredictable in both their duration and occurrence.  The more I see of Renarin, the more I like him.  Have to say I was pretty gratified he manifested Regrowth.

My 13 yr old son is diagnosed with Asperger's and I can totally relate with many parts of this... 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

3 minutes ago, Hischier said:

 I don't think it being on screen makes a difference, it's the fact that it happened that's the issue.  He's ok showing a kid get killed. 

From Mistborn, although I don't think it's really a spoiler for anything. 

  Hide contents

 

“In the mists, beyond the eyesight of regular people, the soldier drew out a dagger and slit the boy’s throat. Vin jumped, shocked, as the sounds of the boy’s struggling tapered off. The guard dropped the body, then grabbed it by a leg and began to drag it away.”

...

“Actually, they seemed a little more chatty, now that the screams had stopped.”

Excerpt From: Sanderson, Brandon. “The Mistborn Trilogy.” 

 

 

Its very different to see a nameless guard kill a child than for the protagonist do the same. 

5 minutes ago, Asrael said:

I fully believe we will be seeing the "death" of this child in the future:
 

So clearly something happened at the Rift that was SO horrible that this soldier couldn't handle it. You don't build up that kind of drama to just answer it two chapters later. I suspect that we will be seeing more from Rathalas.

Point to you. Maybe we will see it later, but if we do it will probably be the worst thing we see a Sanderson good and honorable protagonist do. 

Mistborn

Spoiler

I put the good to leave Kelsier out of it 

 

[OrangeJedi he/him]

My thoughts on the chapters without having read any posts:

Chapter 10

"Please save us Brightlord Radiant"

News of Kaladin is spreading and the people respect and don't hate him (mostly).

Also, really Syl, really? And the Kaladin/Shallon thing, I still don't like it or think it will happen.

Chapter 11

"The Blackthorn is coming"

Dalinar's past is...dark. Why was I not expecting that, after Kaladin and then Shallon...Still I did not see that comming.

Overall I liked it till the end.

Chapter 12

"Brightking"?

Good to know that Dalinar is talking with the monarchs.

I can't wait for Lift to show up in Azir and open the Oathgate.

Did not expect that queen to be so...well that.

We know where the Honnorblade is!

Elhokar's moves were unexpected, but probably needed to happen. Also, him and Kaladin going to Kolinar to take the Oathgate? Hope that goes well.

Taravangian is up to something, I don't know what, probably diagram stuff.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I did read through the comments and have many similar feelings. 

- Voyeur Syl! Hilarious.
- Only one other person thinks the Parshmen that attacked the Alethi village for grain were the Last Legion (Eshonai's villagers who escaped)?
- The way the wrist issue was resolved, after it spawned such intense debate and theories, made me lol so hard haha
- Mr. T is coming to Uruthiru? I imagine he will try to pull a coup similar to what he did in Jah Kaved. He will will make himself indispensable, in some way, to Dalinar and then try to have Dalinar removed (nice way of saying assassinated). To push the theory a bit farther, Szeth will, in some way, be responsible for saving Dalinar from Mr. T. Well, Szeth or, perhaps, Graves/Moash.

Man, reading Oathbringer three chapters at a time is brutal!

[Salkara]

9 minutes ago, Asrael said:

So clearly something happened at the Rift that was SO horrible that this soldier couldn't handle it. You don't build up that kind of drama to just answer it two chapters later. I suspect that we will be seeing more from Rathalas.

Agreed. My best guess is that the mother or child is still alive and is behind the death of Dalinar's wife. In response, he butchers the entire city.

[Ironeyes he/him]

The natural historian in me has decided that my favorite detail was the gumfrems. Because not just greatshells have gemhearts, and not all gemhearts are emerald. This makes it far more plausible that Rosharians have such a large supply of gems even though they seem to break them with regularity. 

[+robardin he/him]

19 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

If you don't have any idea what I'm talking about why would you even reply?  And especially why would you reply by making an assumption how I felt about what you assume happened off screen?

 

Leroy Jenkins is an old school internet meme (before they were even called memes) about one guy trying to organize a battle and tell everyone what to do what to do, while one guy just pulls out his shard hammer and charges into battle.

Dude, I was intentionally misreading your comment for humorous effect. No offense intended.

 

[Hischier]

5 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Agreed. My best guess is that the mother or child is still alive and is behind the death of Dalinar's wife. In response, he butchers the entire city.

That would make a lot of sense.  

[Ironeyes he/him]

2 hours ago, Mulk said:

Renarin is like my son, or so I think. My son is high-functioning autistic; I'm of the opinion Renarin is similar, higher functioning and perhaps Asperger's, but on the spectrum regardless.

My son makes a lot of people uncomfortable.  Even me at times.  He doesn't assimilate data like I do, doesn't react to people like I do, worries about the strangest stuff, doesn't emotionally respond like most people are used to, gets overwhelmed by simple things and lets some really big ones just roll off of him.

Anyway.  I bring this up because Renarin's apparent leap forward as a Radiant is exactly how my son has developed over his whole life.  There has been no gradual learning for him (and he's 17 now).  There have been periods of no learning at all, followed by these massive leaps in understanding and adaptability that are unpredictable in both their duration and occurrence.  The more I see of Renarin, the more I like him.  Have to say I was pretty gratified he manifested Regrowth.

Agreed. I was diagnosed with Aspergers when I was little and Renarin reminds me strongly of myself. 

[Salkara]

3 hours ago, Mulk said:

I'm of the opinion Renarin is similar, higher functioning and perhaps Asperger's, but on the spectrum regardless.

There's WoB that Renarin is on the spectrum, but only barely:

Quote

Kogiopsis

Is Renarin Kholin on the autism spectrum?

Brandon Sanderson

Slightly—not even so much as Asperger's, but yes. (Something about it being difficult to notice/diagnose?)

 

[Hischier]

@WhiteLeeopard To each their own.  Personally I don't think it gets much worse to show the death itself once you read: 

Quote

“You can’t have my daddy,” the boy said, words distorted by his sorrow. Painspren crawled around the floor. “You can’t. You… you…” His voice fell to a whisper. “Daddy said… we fight monsters. And with faith, we will win.…”

 

[flying_shadow she/her]

13 minutes ago, Hischier said:

 Personally I don't think it gets much worse to show the death itself once you read: 

Exactly. Leaving it up to our imaginations will make us picture terrible things, and writing down exactly what happened takes away from that.

[+robardin he/him]

With all the talk about the events at The Rift, I compared the words that Tanalan throws in Dalinar's face during his assault, and Dalinar's own words much later.

Tanalan:

Quote

 

“The king?” Tanalan demanded, angerspren boiling up around him. “There hasn’t been a throne in Alethkar for generations. Even if we were to have a king again, who is to say the Kholins deserve the mantle?

“You speak of the people,” Tanalan said hoarsely, gauntleted hand feeling at his chest where the cuirass had been bent significantly by Dalinar’s rush. He seemed to be having trouble breathing. “As if this were about them. As if it were for their good that you loot, you pillage, you murder. You’re an uncivilized brute. ...You don’t have to pull sorrow behind you like a sledge on the stones, scraping and crushing those you pass. You’re a monster.”

 

33 years later, Dalinar, to Wit:

Quote

"This is unity? ... We failed. We crushed, we killed, and we have failed miserably. ...In taking the throne by force, we implied -- no, we screamed -- that strength is the right of rule. If Sadeas thinks he is stronger than I am, then it is his duty to try to take the throne from me. These are the fruits of my youth, Wit. It is why we need more than tyranny, even the benevolent kind, to transform this kingdom.

Not only has Dalinar come full circle, notice how even then, he explicitly states that Sadeas seeks to take the throne not from Elhokar, but from him.

 

[scifan he/him]

Hmmm... actually, thinking a little more... there are multiple people who are in for a bit of a shock the next time they see Szeth... 

I think at some point, someone (Nale? Szeth?) will bring some level of justice to King Taravangian...

The reunion w/ Kaladin might be a little different... (would be VERY interesting if they ended up fighting together...)

Unsure what will come with a reunion w/ Dalinar or Adolin...

Several interesting possibilities.  Also I hadn't realized that his soul was disconnected/not properly connected... interesting aspect... wonder if that will get resolved at some point... Call it a Healing of sorts.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 minute ago, scifan said:

The reunion w/ Kaladin might be a little different... (would be VERY interesting if they ended up fighting together...)

Szeth killed some men from Bridge 4. Kaladin may fight by his side it if is right but he will never forgive Szeth. Also, for Syl's sake I really hope Kaladin doesn't try to fight Szeth, don't want to find out what Nightblood does to spren via Syl.

[SilverTiger she/her]

28 minutes ago, Ironeyes said:

Agreed. I was diagnosed with Aspergers when I was little and Renarin reminds me strongly of myself. 

I can relate. I have Asperger's Syndrome too, and my biggest difficulty is actually talking to people. I am smart, but often feel incapable of talking to other people, even about the simplest things. Also, people with Asperger's often tend to focus on studying specific topics. Another thing I'd like to mention is that while talking to other people, I often don't get some of what they are saying- the nuances of tone and face that are obvious to everyone else are incomprehensible to me; maybe Renarin has something like that. It would explain why he is so quiet and reserved.

On other topics, where did we find out that Redin of Jah Keved has a Rhyshadium? Because if T's Radiant wasn't female, I'd guess that Redin was it.

[Nicrosil he/him]

Oh God I had a terrible thought. 

What if the young kid is Adolin? What if Dalinar married Tanalan's wife? And Dalinar's boon was for everyone's memories to be altered? It could explain the discrepancy with how Dalinar got his armor from his marriage, but had it when he killed Tanalan. 

...Ok, it's pretty stupid sounding now that I type it.

[maxal she/her]

As always , I hadn't had time to read through all the replies, but here is my review nonetheless.

Chapter 10

What a curious change to read a smiling, self-assuming Kaladin presenting himself as a hero everywhere he goes. I love the banter in between him and Syl: Kaladin thinking of how he is ever going to be intimate with women again made me laughed. I was however sadden to hear Syl hates/mistrusts Adolin: it isn't his fault the Blades are dead, why hold it against him? It made me think she will not be against Kaladin stealing Shallan from him...

Ah Adolin... This passage was beyond sad. It left me with such a deep feeling of melancholia. Everyone within Adolin's entourage are progressing, moving forward even his younger brother who is so proud of having managed to reach Blade level. Adolin's encouragements were heartfelt but made me so sad for him... While they all are going into foreign adventures, drawing treaties, becoming Radiants, Adolin is down there giving sugar cubes to Gallant while mourning Sureblood. When he nearly chokes right before Renarin shows up, it really got to me. Poor Adolin is forever looking towards the past while the world has moved on. I loved having Renarin suggest he asks Shallan to draw Sureblood, so he'd be able to remember him better. It was sweet and oddly fitting. I also took note on how Adolin compared the bond he once had with Sureblood to the one he has with his dead-Blade. So he knows. Surprisingly, he has absolutely no reaction whatsoever. Either he hasn't processed the information yet or he really is able to absorb all of it without much trouble.

I really don't think Renarin knows anything about Sadeas or else he would have asked. This was the perfect moment.

Chapter 11

Dalinar killed a boy of 6 to obtain his Shardblade. I have been dying for other readers to finally read the truth: young Dalinar wasn't a great man, he was a brute who took whatever he wanted no matter what it meant.

Chapter 12

I found Dalinar's endless discussions with Azir and the queen to be slightly long, While I acknowledge we need these bouts, I don't enjoy them as much as other parts of the story. 

So Elhokar is giving up on trying to pretend at being a king. Finally. So parts of my latest theory seems to materialize themselves. I am however ambivalent about it. While I am sure many readers are rooting for the upcoming Kaladin/Elhokar pairing, I would have preferred if it were Kaladim/Adolin. So I am sad again because Adolin seems to... well... not really going anywhere, except he now is Highprince and I hate it.

Yeah, I hate Adolin becoming Highprince: I really did not want this to happen. It feels so restricted in terms of story arcs: Highprinces tend to be boring to read, IMHO. Too political, too constraint, not enough.

So this is it for now. I'll post more later as I read the comments.

 

[CodeMnke she/her]

Ok I haven't read through all comments so forgive if I missed something. Also I'll admit I am a bit biased since I would prefer this to have happened.....

 

Hypotosis: Dalinar didn't kill the boy. (and more)

1. Dalinar wonders what if Gavalier finds out? In direct thought with the shame of what happened there. This can't be that he killed the boy, Gavilier KNOWS that, he states in while talking to Dalinar.

2. The mention of the "rift" while Dalinar is trying to remember what happened (in relation to Kadash). It mentions "A city in REBELLION' not one they were conquering.

3. Killing a boy and his mother is not likely (by itself) enough to cause what happened to Kadash (sp?) Hardened soldier that had been on these conquests where they killed raped and pillaged!

 

Ok so really odd random thought......

What if he spared the boy. Only to later have him come back and lead a rebellion in that city that cost him his wife?