[OB] A discussion of shardplate.

[ScavellTane]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Then why the color change from silver to Grey? Why the loss of the color and glyphs? Something has definitely changed state between the old plate and new. If it were made from spren, and still just... Continuing on, it's functionality shouldn't have changed either. 

I believe whats changed is the connection of the Bonded Spren with the shardplate. The later stages of the Oaths probably allows the Radiant and their spren to gain greater control of Stormlight/Investiture like forging shardplate and the Oathgate key-slot.

Edited September 22, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Emerald101 he/him]

I'll just drop these here

Quote

KIMANIAK

When Kaladin killed the Shardbearer (Helaran) in WoK, Amaram remarked that Amaram knew the Shardbearer was dead because the Shardblade didn’t disapper and because the Shardplate began to fall off of him. Is there some type of “lesser” bond between Shardplate and its wearer?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes there is.

(source)

Quote

QUESTION

Is there a difference between the Shardplate of the Radiants and the current Shardplate?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

(source)

Quote

QUESTION

Does Shardplate have one general style as a pattern, or do different types exist (like European armour vs. japanese armour), as the different kingdoms have different cultures?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Different types exist, but it's more along order lines than cultural ones. (That said, a person's culture could certainly influence their armor.)

(source)

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Then why the color change from silver to Grey? Why the loss of the color and glyphs? Something has definitely changed state between the old plate and new. If it were made from spren, and still just... Continuing on, it's functionality shouldn't have changed either. 

Maybe the Radiant Spren's guidance or maybe a tuning with an operative Knight (based on the same phenomen that turn the KR's eyes)

Edited September 22, 2017 by Yata

[Tarion]

On 19/09/2017 at 10:56 PM, Steeldancer said:

Occams razor. The simplest explanation is often the best. If it was windspren, windspren are usually visible. 

I feel that's a fairly big assumption. We see a lot of windspren. That doesn't mean that they're usually visible - It's equally possible that they're just common, and there are even more that we don't see. 

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, Tarion said:

I feel that's a fairly big assumption. We see a lot of windspren. That doesn't mean that they're usually visible - It's equally possible that they're just common, and there are even more that we don't see. 

I can't think of any examples of common non-sentient Spren being invisible so it's more likely then not that windspren are visible, and so I support the statement about occhams razor, most of the time the simplest of all equal solutions is correct.

[BlackYeti he/him]

4 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I can't think of any examples of common non-sentient Spren being invisible so it's more likely then not that windspren are visible, and so I support the statement about occhams razor, most of the time the simplest of all equal solutions is correct.

Quote

Maybe they hadn’t seen the spren. Many of the larger ones were invisible except to the person they were tormenting. Kaladin sat back down to floor of the wagon, hanging his legs outside. The windspren had said his name, but undoubtedly she’d just repeated what she’d heard before. But … none of the men in the cage knew his name.

The Way of Kings - Chapter 2, Honor is Dead

Apparently windspren often are invisible, at least according to Kaladin.

[Emerald101 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I can't think of any examples of common non-sentient Spren being invisible so it's more likely then not that windspren are visible, and so I support the statement about occhams razor, most of the time the simplest of all equal solutions is correct.

How would we know if it were happening? It's not like we're getting POVs from random spren. IIRC during one of Eshonai's interludes we see another parshendi attract some angerspren, and Eshonai describes them as speeding toward them instead of boiling out of the ground. IMO this implies that the angerspren are only visible to humans after they've been attracted.

[Tarion]

15 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I can't think of any examples of common non-sentient Spren being invisible so it's more likely then not that windspren are visible, and so I support the statement about occhams razor, most of the time the simplest of all equal solutions is correct.

Some very good answers already posted, but also: Rock.

His ability to see invisible spren only makes sense as an ability if invisible spren are actually kind of common. He's not surprised when he finds spren that only he can see, it's not some huge deal. Between him and the Parshendi, I've always had the impression that humanity only sees a small proportion of the spren that are there. 

[Calderis he/him]

Spren are Cognitive entities. They exist primarily in the Cognitive Realm, and unless something draws them across into the physical realm, they aren't visible. The few scenes we've had of the Parshendi perspective showing spren zipping in from far away should demonstrate this nicely. Parshendi are closer to the Cognitive Realm and perceive spren more readily then humans. All spren (unless Nahel bonded) are primarily invisible. 

[waynegrantham]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

The "spren plate" idea has always bothered me. Plate doesn't scream when a Radiant touches it, and it's not detested by the Spren in the way blades are. Add in this "spren children" idea to it, and it just makes it worse to me. 

Why would the bonded spren be perfectly alright with someone wearing plate if it's more spren corpses? 

@Calderis

I commented before, my personal belief in this line of theory, plate is made of chosen sub-spren who don't have sentience, so no screaming.

Other wise every potential radiant would go crazy from contact with ALL spren, Stick, Chair, Boat. Everything has a spren, only a few are sentient and can form Bonds.

My 2cp

[waynegrantham]

7 hours ago, Emerald101 said:

How would we know if it were happening? It's not like we're getting POVs from random spren. IIRC during one of Eshonai's interludes we see another parshendi attract some angerspren, and Eshonai describes them as speeding toward them instead of boiling out of the ground. IMO this implies that the angerspren are only visible to humans after they've been attracted.

@Emerald101

But we do have Canon on non sentient Spren.

I am Stick. 

Invisible in physical.

[Calderis he/him]

23 minutes ago, waynegrantham said:

@Calderis

I commented before, my personal belief in this line of theory, plate is made of chosen sub-spren who don't have sentience, so no screaming.

Other wise every potential radiant would go crazy from contact with ALL spren, Stick, Chair, Boat. Everything has a spren, only a few are sentient and can form Bonds.

My 2cp

No. Everything has a Cognitive aspect. Rosharans use the word spren for this, but "spren" as we use it is for splinters. Winds prenatal and other cognitive entities are sentient beings. The "spren" associated with inanimate objects can have a semblance of thought, but this is a mockery and not actual life. There's nothing dead in inanimate objects. 

Plate made from spren should still scream, because although windspren and other lesser spren are not sapient, they are sentient. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Calderis

[waynegrantham]

Good logic, are you assuming sub-spren are sentient?

Is a wind spren different from a flamespren? 

[Calderis he/him]

25 minutes ago, waynegrantham said:

Good logic, are you assuming sub-spren are sentient?

Is a wind spren different from a flamespren? 

No. But there behavior in the Physical Realm is not indicative of their behavior in Cognitive. 

We see echoes of them in the physical realm due to things that draw them. We don't see how these interactions, or their forms, appear in the Cognitive. 

Assuming that flamespren are not sentient creatures based off a a perception of them that is filtered through a realm they do not actually inhabit is flawed reasoning. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Calderis

[Emerald101 he/him]

5 hours ago, waynegrantham said:

@Emerald101

But we do have Canon on non sentient Spren.

I am Stick. 

Invisible in physical.

I don't follow you. First off, it's generally incorrect to treat the cognitive aspect of objects as equivalent to spren. Yes they're called the same thing locally, but by that logic we should be considering if the shards and Adonalsium are/were visible in the physical since WoB says the people on Roshar would call those spren. The stick Shallan interacts with in WoR is just a stick like any other. All objects have a cognitive aspect. Properly, spren are splinters of investiture that have gained a measure of sentience. The two are very different.

In any case, I don't see how what you said is any sort of argument against what I said. Perhaps one of us is misinterpreting what the other said, so I'll clarify: I was saying that I believe (as Calderis does) that invisibility is the natural state of spren. They only become visible to humans when something attracts them into the physical realm.

[Calderis he/him]

41 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

I don't follow you. First off, it's generally incorrect to treat the cognitive aspect of objects as equivalent to spren. Yes they're called the same thing locally, but by that logic we should be considering if the shards and Adonalsium are/were visible in the physical since WoB says the people on Roshar would call those spren. The stick Shallan interacts with in WoR is just a stick like any other. All objects have a cognitive aspect. Properly, spren are splinters of investiture that have gained a measure of sentience. The two are very different.

Exactly. That's what I was say here. 

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

No. Everything has a Cognitive aspect. Rosharans use the word spren for this, but "spren" as we use it is for splinters. Winds prenatal and other cognitive entities are sentient beings. The "spren" associated with inanimate objects can have a semblance of thought, but this is a mockery and not actual life. There's nothing dead in inanimate objects. 

Stick is just a storming stick. It's inability reason for stating the same phrase ad nauseum is that it can't think. It's Cognitive Aspect is a composite creation of its Connection to the things around it, and the way living things have perceived it. It is not a spren. Spren are sentient and animated creatures in the Cognitive Realm. Inanimate objects are beads.

45 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

I was saying that I believe (as Calderis does) that invisibility is the natural state of spren. They only become visible to humans when something attracts them into the physical realm.

Again, exactly. As in your Parshendi example, the Spren have a life of their own in the Cognitive Realm that humans are simply not privy to. Parshendi can see them, because they are a species that has a more direct link to the Cognitive Realm. They can see the Spren as they are drawn in. Humans don't see them until they've arrived and interact with what's drawn them. 

[sprocket]

I know this theory isn't very popular, but I'm still pretty much certain that shardplate isn't anything more than a very advanced fabrial. This doesn't mean that there aren't spren involved (we know that there are spren inside fabrials), and these spren could form half of the "lesser bond" between the armor and its bearer.

So that would mean that shardplate is made out of some kind of mundane metal (i.e., not solid investiture like atium), but augmented by the affects of various surges. If you think about it, everything shardplate does can be attributed to a surge, and in stark contrast to shardblades, they require gemstones with a supply of stormlight in order to work. I don't know about you guys but that sounds like a fabrial to me. We've even seen contemporary fabrials that behave similarly to plate in the form of the Veden half-shard shields (metal augmented by a surge that can block a shardblade but shatters after too much stress is put on it). 

[Yata he/him]

10 minutes ago, sprocket said:

I know this theory isn't very popular, but I'm still pretty much certain that shardplate isn't anything more than a very advanced fabrial. This doesn't mean that there aren't spren involved (we know that there are spren inside fabrials), and these spren could form half of the "lesser bond" between the armor and its bearer.

So that would mean that shardplate is made out of some kind of mundane metal (i.e., not solid investiture like atium), but augmented by the affects of various surges. If you think about it, everything shardplate does can be attributed to a surge, and in stark contrast to shardblades, they require gemstones with a supply of stormlight in order to work. I don't know about you guys but that sounds like a fabrial to me. We've even seen contemporary fabrials that behave similarly to plate in the form of the Veden half-shard shields (metal augmented by a surge that can block a shardblade but shatters after too much stress is put on it). 

To be honest I like it, but there is the huge problem of "if you could build Plates, why only the Radiants had them". You would expect some important figure in wartime to be equipped with a Plate for his own safety

[sprocket]

Just now, Yata said:

"if you could build Plates, why only the Radiants had them". You would expect some important figure in wartime to be equipped with a Plate for his own safety

Technically that might be the case. We really don't know enough about that time period to say. Brandon even called attention to that when Dalinar uses his to build a latrine, so finding out that builders and other non radiants made use of plate too would be a nice call back. 

Also, presumably shardplate was created around the same time as Uruthiru and the Oathgates (since they seem to be a comparable level of advanced and are also closely associated with the KR). There does seem to be some difference between modern plate and ancient plate. The plate worn by the KR in the past didn't interfere with surgebinding, and could be dispelled almost like a shardblade. So back then it was probably seen as something only the KR could make proper use of, or maybe the KR were literally the only people who could use it at that time (like there was some other bond like the Nahel bond that enabled this).

There's definitely something more involved. Maybe the gemstones that power it have the "children" of the Nahel bonded spren inside, providing the resonance required to surgebind while wearing it. I have a gut feeling we'll probably have a better idea once Oathbringer is out.  

[Calderis he/him]

The fact that plate was able to be dismissed and summoned by the Radiants in Dalinar's visions is the only reason I think fabrials are out of the question. 

If it was just fabrials, then the difference between Radiant plate, which didn't interfere with the surges, and modern plate would need to be explained as well. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Calderis

[sprocket]

Well the surge of transportation is a thing. 

Currently we know less about plate then we do blades, I'm sure there's a reason ancient plate behaves differently that we're going to learn soon. The thing is, if plate wasn't a fabrial, why does it behave so similarly to one? If it was a bunch of spren in solid form why does it need gems and stormlight to work? You end up with questions either way, but with what we have I think the fabrial angle is more likely partly due to occams razor. 

[Rameuses]

5 hours ago, sprocket said:

Well the surge of transportation is a thing. 

Currently we know less about plate then we do blades, I'm sure there's a reason ancient plate behaves differently that we're going to learn soon. The thing is, if plate wasn't a fabrial, why does it behave so similarly to one? If it was a bunch of spren in solid form why does it need gems and stormlight to work? You end up with questions either way, but with what we have I think the fabrial angle is more likely partly due to occams razor. 

Dead shardblades act like fabrials too. The bonded gemstone allows them to be summoned; though it takes 10 heartbeats unlike a 'live-spren' shardblade, and dismissed. Dead shardblades also require a bonding time period. The live blade is available as soon as the WORDS are spoken. Perhaps shardplate acts more like a fabrial because of the lost connection with the KR. Non-KR shard bearers have to feed the plate storm light for it to rebuild itself. Does a KR have to do that and if so, is it done in the same way? Probably not in the same manner.

I recall Dalinar saying that the shardplate worn by the KR shined were as current shardplate is usually painted. It's apparent that there is a difference in how a KR is able to bond, interact with and use Shards compared to non-KR.

I'm waiting for Kaladin to speak ALL of the WORDS and have his shardplate appear to help him defeat Odium's champion; or something as equally dramatic as Syl appearing in his had as a 'Shard-weapon' to help him defeat Seth. However the appearing happens, I don't see how Syl (or other Nahel bonded spren) could possibly NOT be involved.

[Steeldancer he/him]

5 hours ago, sprocket said:

Well the surge of transportation is a thing. 

Currently we know less about plate then we do blades, I'm sure there's a reason ancient plate behaves differently that we're going to learn soon. The thing is, if plate wasn't a fabrial, why does it behave so similarly to one? If it was a bunch of spren in solid form why does it need gems and stormlight to work? You end up with questions either way, but with what we have I think the fabrial angle is more likely partly due to occams razor. 

I doubt it is a fabrial. I think fabrials are their own magic system, according to WoB. 

Old, live shardplate used to not need gems. Just like blades didn't need gems. Except, blades don't run on stormlight. Shardplate does, IMO because it's MADE of stormlight. Given that the only way Roshar has had of moving stormlight is through gems, gems would have been added to give the shardplate the stormlight it needs to regenerate/function. 

I almost imagine it being like a leaf, with veins running through it. So the solidified stormlight would conduct the still gaseous stormlight through it. 

A radiant would be able to power their shardplate without using any gems, because they can absorb/emit storm light. This would also keep the shardplate from getting in the way of surges (which I suspect is because the shardplate is still keyed to that original radiant who made it). 

If it was a fabrial, it would function more like the half shards of Jah Keved. But it doesn't. It's a lot more effective, and grants strength and speed and a bunch of other stuff. 

[Watchcry he/him]

23 hours ago, Yata said:

Maybe the Radiant Spren's guidance or maybe a tuning with an operative Knight (based on the same phenomen that turn the KR's eyes)

If shardplate is/are spren then the reason would be the same that Syl gives for spren having a specific gender based on the Radiants perception of them. Their plate will appear as a Radiant perceives what armor ought to look like in order to protect them. 

[Emerald101 he/him]

I'm rather sure that shardplate is not a fabrial, for reasons already stated and also because of this WoB (source)

Quote

BORT

Did Shardplate always have gemstones, or were they added later, after the Recreance?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They were added, but maybe not just after the Recreance. (Further clarification, and Brandon stated that they were added to Shardplate about the same time that the discovery was made that adding a gemstone to a Shardblade would allow it to be bonded. I suspect that before that, the Plate was form locked, and couldn't adapt to it's wearer)

Shardplate didn't always have gems in it, and both kinds of fabrials we've encountered (old and new) are powered by gems.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Emerald101
fixed formatting error