[OB] **Oathbring Spoilers** Did Dalinar do it?

[Lightning he/him]

So, did Dalinar kill the kid?

Dalinar doesn't want Gavilar to know what he did.  And yet, in that same scene we find out that it is public knowledge that Dalinar killed the ruler and his heir.  So... did he actually kill the kid?

[rjl]

I definitely think that something not obvious happened there but what I do not know.

[CodeMnke she/her]

I actually posted this in the 10-12. Chapters thread 

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Ok I haven't read through all comments so forgive if I missed something. Also I'll admit I am a bit biased since I would prefer this to have happened.....

 

Hypotosis: Dalinar didn't kill the boy. (and more)

1. Dalinar wonders what if Gavalier finds out? In direct thought with the shame of what happened there. This can't be that he killed the boy, Gavilier KNOWS that, he states in while talking to Dalinar.

2. The mention of the "rift" while Dalinar is trying to remember what happened (in relation to Kadash). It mentions "A city in REBELLION' not one they were conquering.

3. Killing a boy and his mother is not likely (by itself) enough to cause what happened to Kadash (sp?) Hardened soldier that had been on these conquests where they killed raped and pillaged!

 

Ok so really odd random thought......

What if he spared the boy. Only to later have him come back and lead a rebellion in that city that cost him his wife? 

 

 

[Monotrema]

Agreed. I think he spared the boy and is ashamed of not being "strong enough" or something like that. Of course, it will come back to bite him in a future flashback. 

[+Spicker]

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So I went back to re-read that passage more closely, and it's a little of both of what I thought before. However, I don't think Navani's involved.

 

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He reached gingerly with his right hand, the less mangled one, and raised a mug of wine to his lips. It was the only drug he cared about for the pain — and maybe it would help with the shame too. Both feelings seemed stark, now that the Thrill had receded and left him deflated.

“What do we do with them, Dalinar?” Gavilar asked, waving down toward the crowds of civilians the soldiers were rounding up. “Tens of thousands of people. They won’t be cowed easily; they won’t like that you killed their highlord and his heir. Those people will resist us for years. I can feel it.”

...

“We can’t just keep acting like a bunch of thugs,” Gavilar said. “We can’t rob every city we pass, feast every night. We need discipline; we need to hold the land we have. We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.”

Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?

...

“[Oathbringer is] yours now,” Gavilar said. “By the time we’re done, I’ll have it so that nobody even thinks of Sunmaker anymore. Just House Kholin and Alethkar.”

He walked away. Dalinar rammed the Shardblade into the stone and leaned back, closing his eyes again and remembering the sound of a brave boy crying.

 

The Thrill had masked his shame as well as his physical pain - which suggests the shame stems from something he'd done while riding The Thrill. Besides, while Dalinar expresses internal shame in other passages based on his attraction to his brother's wife, that's always been in her presence, and she's not at this battle, nor even tangentially a topic of conversation between the two.

However, Gavilar does know, or believe, that Dalinar killed both "their highlord and his heir" - the heir being the boy. So the shame isn't about keeping Gavilar from thinking he did so.

On the other other hand, closing his eyes and remembering "a brave boy crying" as soon as he's alone, that sounds pretty much exactly what I would call "shame". It's certainly what's foremost on his mind at that particular moment, and one would assume, what was shaming him to the point of distraction earlier.

So back to this thought again: is it possible that Dalinar didn't kill the boy, but did something else that would be shameful, not just in his own mind, but in Gavilar's estimation of him? Or was it just the way in which he did it?

I really like this post by @robardin in the chapter 10-12 release thread. 
It sums up my feelings pretty well. He either didn't kill the heir, or he did so in a particularly heinous way that he doesn't want Gavilar to know about.

[waynegrantham]

Long Time reader, ...

I'll zig to all the zags...

Do we know Amarams age?

What if he is the "kid"? Dalinar sends back for him.

Sadeas finds out, "adopts" kid into his princedom and uses it as leverage.

Would explain why Dalinar and Amarams are so close.....

(Excuse name spelling errors)

**Probably wrong, but interesting...

Edited September 20, 2017 by waynegrantham

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

I like that Idea, but I do not think Amaram would be such a friend to Dalinar if it was him.

[maxal she/her]

I think he killed him. The Blackthorn was a monster: there was nothing honorable about the Kholin's fight to unite Alethkar. Dalinar hinted to a darker past, he hinted there was much more to it than him merely having been a terrible opponent onto the battlefield. Thus, I definitely think Dalinar killed the boy, because he saw no other way around it, because the Thrill pushed him to take what he wanted no matter the consequences. The truth of what he did only hit home afterwards... and it may be where he started spiraling downwards.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

I think he didn't kill the kid, not because he wouldn't be capable of it, but because the whole passage just read strangely to me.

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I think he killed him. The Blackthorn was a monster: there was nothing honorable about the Kholin's fight to unite Alethkar. Dalinar hinted to a darker past, he hinted there was much more to it than him merely having been a terrible opponent onto the battlefield. Thus, I definitely think Dalinar killed the boy, because he saw no other way around it, because the Thrill pushed him to take what he wanted no matter the consequences. The truth of what he did only hit home afterwards... and it may be where he started spiraling downwards.

Nothing honorable yet. 

That said, the writing on it is super vague. And the Blackthorn was complicated, but he's not a monster yet. A ruthless jerk, but the monstrous stuff comes last. When Dalinar hits rock bottom. I kind of hope that kid is somebody we like. (Having it be Elhokar would be hilarious, but 6 is too old to have no memory of adoption) 

[Dhavaer]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Nothing honorable yet. 

That said, the writing on it is super vague. And the Blackthorn was complicated, but he's not a monster yet. A ruthless jerk, but the monstrous stuff comes last. When Dalinar hits rock bottom. I kind of hope that kid is somebody we like. (Having it be Elhokar would be hilarious, but 6 is too old to have no memory of adoption) 

Elhokar is also much younger than Jasnah, who seems to be an infant at the time of the flashback.

[Yata he/him]

I believe Dalinar killed the Kid but in a messy way. A kid in his path with the treasure he seek for years was such as an offense to his Thrilled self that he didn't Simply killed him...he progressed further, maybe Ruins the corpse After or maybe broking his mind before killing him

[Andy92]

When Dalinar had the moment's thought that "Gavilar can't know the truth," I thought at the time that he was thinking about how he was in love with Navani. That's mentioned earlier in the flashback.

But at the time I thought that was odd placement to start thinking about her again, so maybe he really was trying to hide his inability to kill the boy. Not sure based on how it reads. 

[king of nowhere]

I don't regard killing the kid in the circumstance such a terrible action. Of course it is very sad to read, and of course gavilar's team is a villainous conquering force, but that has nothing to do with the kid. He was armed with a shardblade and was willing to use it, after all. Shardblades  are light enough that even children can use them effectively, and dalinar's plate was broken in many places, most notably in the hands, preventing him from disarming the child - which would have been the "right" choice otherwise (ok, the right choice would have been to not attack rathalas, but barring that).

And most important, regardless of how I feel about the deed, there's how dalinar feels about the deed. I don't think he would have been so disturbed by killing wht can be considered an enemy child soldier. And Kadash? He wasn't with dalinar when it happened. We know from other chapters that something really bad happened there, something that caused kadash to forfait the army and join the ardentia. So far we've seen nothing of it.

No, the whole chapter is fishy. I think it will be something like shallan's flashback, where it appears that her father killed her mother, when it was shallan doing it. Or like kaladin's first chapter in WoK, where it seems kaladin was defeated in battle and made a slave, and you realize later what actually happened. I'd bet you good money things did not go as they seem. And that we'll see what happened at a later point in the book.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I don't regard killing the kid in the circumstance such a terrible action. Of course it is very sad to read, and of course gavilar's team is a villainous conquering force, but that has nothing to do with the kid. He was armed with a shardblade and was willing to use it, after all. Shardblades  are light enough that even children can use them effectively, and dalinar's plate was broken in many places, most notably in the hands, preventing him from disarming the child - which would have been the "right" choice otherwise (ok, the right choice would have been to not attack rathalas, but barring that).

And most important, regardless of how I feel about the deed, there's how dalinar feels about the deed. I don't think he would have been so disturbed by killing wht can be considered an enemy child soldier. And Kadash? He wasn't with dalinar when it happened. We know from other chapters that something really bad happened there, something that caused kadash to forfait the army and join the ardentia. So far we've seen nothing of it.

No, the whole chapter is fishy. I think it will be something like shallan's flashback, where it appears that her father killed her mother, when it was shallan doing it. Or like kaladin's first chapter in WoK, where it seems kaladin was defeated in battle and made a slave, and you realize later what actually happened. I'd bet you good money things did not go as they seem. And that we'll see what happened at a later point in the book.

There was no mention of Kadash, and Dalinar was explicitly stated as being in that room alone. 

We're not done at the rift yet. 

[Harbour he/him]

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closing his eyes again and remembering the sound of a brave boy crying.

For me that type of line indicates that Dalinar really killed the boy. It has a little sense for BS to make Dalinar remember the sound of brave boy crying if Dalinar didnt kill him.

[Aminar]

41 minutes ago, Harbour said:

For me that type of line indicates that Dalinar really killed the boy. It has a little sense for BS to make Dalinar remember the sound of brave boy crying if Dalinar didnt kill him.

Unless he's starting to wonder if they're doing the right thing. He robbed a child of his father. Took his birthright. It's not hard to regret ruining someone's life, even if they aren't dead. 

Also the timeline lines up really well for that kid to have caused the death of Shshsh 12ish years later. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Aminar

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think Dalinar killed the boy. He was focused on one thing only, and that was getting Oathbringer. Remember, Dalinar was okay with plundering, with raping. But then he'd stop at killing the son of his enemy to get the Blade? No way.

Furthermore, I think someone should have noticed that there were no boy-corpse around.

Dalinar was most likely thinking of Navani. They were talking of marriage, after all.

[Salkara]

41 minutes ago, Ronald said:

Dalinar let the boy go. He grew up to be father to Kaladin.

A couple problems with that:

1. Timeline. The battle happened 33 years ago. Kaladin is 19-years-old. That means Lirin would've been 14 when Kaladin was born? I don't think that's too likely.
2. Eyes. The boy's father was a brightlord. Presumably, the boy is a lighteyes. Lirin is not a lighteyes.

[+Spicker]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

 

No, the whole chapter is fishy. I think it will be something like shallan's flashback, where it appears that her father killed her mother, when it was shallan doing it. Or like kaladin's first chapter in WoK, where it seems kaladin was defeated in battle and made a slave, and you realize later what actually happened. I'd bet you good money things did not go as they seem. And that we'll see what happened at a later point in the book.

This is how I feel. I don't know what the twist is yet, but something else is going on here.
And after rereading the passage, I am more convinced that Dalinar was not thinking of Navani. She just wasn't mentioned, and him thinking about her here feels out of place.
I had a quick thought that just came to me... what if the wife was pregnant and he let her go. I just don't know if that would cause him shame. 
I am just trying to think of something we wouldn't expect. Maybe I should just let myself be surprised.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Spicker

[Salkara]

1 hour ago, Ronald said:

1.Your math is wrong. Boy was 6ys old. So he would have been 20ys when Kaladin was born. I think...

You're right. I was forgetting to add in the boy's age. Still, I think it's not enough time for Lirin to go through his training and get married before Kaladin was born. I mean, unless Lirin is this guy.

[Hayleymckell]

It had to be something worse than just killing the boy. Even though that is awful, he was an enemy soldier at that moment.  I think he may have threatened the mother to get the boy to give him the blade, but then killed them both anyway. 

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Hayleymckell said:

It had to be something worse than just killing the boy. Even though that is awful, he was an enemy soldier at that moment.  I think he may have threatened the mother to get the boy to give him the blade, but then killed them both anyway. 

Did you read Oathbringer?  Because this is answered.

[Hayleymckell]

14 minutes ago, RShara said:

Did you read Oathbringer?  Because this is answered.

I am reading it right now. I just finished chapter 11

[RShara she/her]

Okay, I won't spoil it, but you will find out.