[OB] Something is Wrong With the Flashbacks *Spoilers*

[Obnoxiousspren]

Spoilers for Oathbringer, obviously.

So something seems to be wrong with these flashbacks, and I don't think they are writing mistakes. They seem to obvious to not be intentional. Here is the major one I see, maybe you guys have seen others. Navani is talking to Dalinar about his dead wife and says this about their marriage:

“I wouldn’t say that. You married Shshshsh for her Shardplate, but many marriages are for political reasons. That doesn’t mean you were wrong. If you’ll recall, we all encouraged you to do it.”

Cool, makes sense, except when you read the latest chapters (10-12). Here we hear from Dalinar that he got his Shardplate by: "kicking a man off a cliff."

The other problem is, by this point in the flashback, Dalinar isn't married to his former wife (Shshshsh or whatever). In other words, he shouldn't have his Shardplate in the flashback, and how he got it in the flashback is not consistent with how Navani says he got it.

So, my theory at this point (or guess) is that these flashbacks aren't entirely accurate, but somehow changed. I would guess they are probably changed by the Nightwatcher's curse/boon, but do you think there is anything else involved? What would the purpose of these inaccurate flashbacks be? Let me know your thoughts!

Edit: I goofed and forgot that the Plate Adolin uses came through Dalinar's marriage to Shshshsh. So I retract my theory for now. If there is something wrong with the flashbacks, my reasons do nothing to prove it.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Obnoxiousspren

[Nicrosil he/him]

To be fair, Navani never said Dalinar got his Plate through marriage. Although, I do agree that the plate descriptions are weird. Gavilar had bright blue Plate, which may be Adolin's now, while Sadeas had golden armor, which is what Ehlokar currently wears. However, it has been stated that Plate can be painted and decorated, so I have no idea. 

[Obnoxiousspren]

2 minutes ago, Nicrosil said:

To be fair, Navani never said Dalinar got his Plate through marriage. Although, I do agree that the plate descriptions are weird. Gavilar had bright blue Plate, which may be Adolin's now, while Sadeas had golden armor, which is what Ehlokar currently wears. However, it has been stated that Plate can be painted and decorated, so I have no idea. 

Fair point, and one that I have considered as a possibility. But I still think something fishy is going on.

[Hischier]

Dalinar got the plate that Adolin inherited through his marriage to shshshsh. 

Remember the flashbacks aren't the character's reflection of the events, they're a way of telling the character's story in a nonlinear fashion.  

[Watchcry he/him]

4 minutes ago, Hischier said:

Dalinar got the plate that Adolin inherited through his marriage to shshshsh. 

Remember the flashbacks aren't the character's reflection of the events, they're a way of telling the character's story in a nonlinear fashion.  

This is correct. 

[+robardin he/him]

He married Shshshsh "for her Shardplate", meaning, to bring her family's Shards under Kholinar control. Not for his own personal use. (It's noted elsewhere that Adolin's Plate is the set from his mother's family.)

I guess you haven't read the Dalinar flashbacks from Unfettered II , which are all coming out in Oathbringer anyway - we've already seen half of them in the first 12 chapters. Since they appear to be coming out in the same order, the next Dalinar flashback will deal with Dalinar meeting Shshshsh (and you'll find out her name, too).

 

 

[Obnoxiousspren]

1 hour ago, Hischier said:

Dalinar got the plate that Adolin inherited through his marriage to shshshsh. 

Remember the flashbacks aren't the character's reflection of the events, they're a way of telling the character's story in a nonlinear fashion.  

Gotcha. I have forgotten this detail, but you are correct. I stand corrected and my theory is officially dead haha.

[asterion137 he/him]

next flashback will also be pre-marriage (it will be the highstorm party one) if Branderson keeps up his pattern of throwing in the Thrill chapters from Unfettered first. It's timestamp is also after the chapter 11 flashback, meaning that Dalinar did get his shards independently. 

Major spoilers for thrill chapters below on kholin shards

Spoiler

Elhokar's shards are a gift from Dalinar, who takes them from a highprince shardbearer who he kills, and Shhhhhhh(Evi)'s plate is given to Adolin

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by asterion137

[lastofus]

5 hours ago, asterion137 said:

Major spoilers for thrill chapters below on kholin shards

  Hide contents

Elhokar's shards are a gift from Dalinar, who takes them from a highprince shardbearer who he kills, and Shhhhhhh(Evi)'s plate is given to Adolin

 

O GOD I didn't know that these chapters were already written.. I, in the right state of mind, read the spoiler and am a happy man now. Thank you.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I'm actually a bit surprised Dalinar was just married to a foreigner for plate. Why not to a highprince's sister or daughter to gain an entire princedom?

[Blacksmithki]

7 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm actually a bit surprised Dalinar was just married to a foreigner for plate. Why not to a highprince's sister or daughter to gain an entire princedom?

Probably because it has been mentioned multiple times that plate or blade is more valuable then some small kingdoms. That combined with political ties could make her a more valuable political marriage then some random relative of a highprince.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I'm not going to go into the wiki to check, but I think every Alethi princedom had some shardbearers sworn to them (as evidenced by Adolin's dueling spree, where at the end the Kholins "just" had 25% of the Alethi Shards). Besides they were just complaining in that flashback that still 6 princedoms fought against them, well maybe 5 after the Rift.

Edited September 20, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Blacksmithki]

Quote

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm not going to go into the wiki to check, but I think every Alethi princedom had some shardbearers sworn to them (as evidenced by Adolin's dueling spree, where at the end the Kholins "just" had 25% of the Alethi Shards).

 

But why would those people allow the shards to transfer with marriage instead of going down the male family line? 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Of course they wouldn't get Shards that way But gaining Shardbearers sworn to them, is nearly as good. Not to mention it would be good politics with the remaining 4 princedoms and would get a fresh army.

[Blacksmithki]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Of course they wouldn't get Shards that way But gaining Shardbearers sworn to them, is nearly as good. Not to mention it would be good politics with the remaining 4 princedoms and would get a fresh army.

I haven't read unfettered, so I don't have the full context, but were there only four princedoms left? Also his marriage to Shshsh would have had the same benifits would it not have? Only with the benifits of having shard plate not having shardbearers.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

9 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I haven't read unfettered, so I don't have the full context, but were there only four princedoms left? Also his marriage to Shshsh would have had the same benifits would it not have? Only with the benifits of having shard plate not having shardbearers.

I haven't read Unfettered either, as of the second flashback there are 6 princedoms. Its possible one yielded after the Rift, and what I meant is they could have reached a diplomatic (marriage) agreement with another. Leaving just 4. As for marriage to Shshsh, I'm not sure. Maybe the Kholins got lands and armies on the other side of Roshar, but if so it hasn't been mentioned. Even if they did get lands, they would not help in the war of unification of Alethkar. (Shshsh, was Iriali or something like that, can't remember exact kingdom)

Edited September 20, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Dlyol]

Hi,

First-time poster, long time lurker. I have read Unfettered and there is another reason for why he married Shshsh rather than another Alethi and while it's not that big of a spoiler I probably should treat it as such

So SPOILERS for THE THRILL

Spoiler

Essentially Gavilar felt that the more that the Kholins treated with foreigners and appeared to speak for Alethkar the more the other Highprinces would come to regard them as the legitimate Kings. If they were forming marriage alliances for Shards with foreigners then they were already acting as de facto kings so he believed it wouldn't be that large of a jump to becoming de jure kings. 

This strikes me as an interesting insight into how Gavilar thought vs how Dalinar thinks. Gavilar thought about these issues in a much more strategic, less literalistic fashion than Dalinar does. One of the reasons Dalinar is so bad at politics is that he doesn't think very conceptually - he understands power, he doesn't have such a strong grasp on authority or legitimacy which are much more ephemeral. So it is true that Dalinar married Shshshsh for her Shardplate, Gavilar wanted him to marry her as part of his endgame for uniting the Kingdom whilst minimizing bloodshed.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Dlyol

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

But why would those people allow the shards to transfer with marriage instead of going down the male family line? 

The next (?) flashback will explain this. (In "The Thrill" passages from Unfettered II, it's the next flashback, set "28 years ago", five years after the "brave boy crying" flashback we just got previewed in Oathbreaker.)

Spoiler

 

She and her brother essentially took the Shardplate from their family and ran east - remember, Dalinar's first wife was a "foreigner", from Rira to the west of Alethkar - and they were looking to leverage its value to make an alliance with a strong Alethi house, and who stronger than the Kholin family on the throne? Since there was no marriageable female Kholin, plus his leverage "only" being a single set of Shardplate when the Kholins already had multiple sets in the family, it stands to reason that he'd bundle it with his sister as a dowry.

Their family back west were none too pleased. But I don't think the flashback explains WHY Toh and Evi (which are their names) ran east to Alethkar.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by robardin