[OB] Oathgate locations

[Mulk he/him]

WhiteLeeopard, there is the remains of a city on the Shattered Plains - it's just so covered in crem it's unrecognizable as such unless you know what you are seeking.  It's where the Parshendi were based right up until the end of WoR.  There's been all kinds of speculation on why that one was unlocked and it may be as simple as no one goes there anymore, no need to worry about it.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

8 minutes ago, Mulk said:

WhiteLeeopard, there is the remains of a city on the Shattered Plains - it's just so covered in crem it's unrecognizable as such unless you know what you are seeking.  It's where the Parshendi were based right up until the end of WoR.  There's been all kinds of speculation on why that one was unlocked and it may be as simple as no one goes there anymore, no need to worry about it.

I know there was a city there once and the ruins remain. But its strange that the door to the SP was left open, that whichever nation lived there was wiped out/completely relocated, and that the old city wasn't built over as happened everywhere else. 

Of course your point that maybe the plains were shattered before the KR disbanded is an option. Thing is, people tend to build on top of what was once there. When archeologists found Troy, they discovered there had been 7 cities there on top of each other, when one fell or was destroyed they built the new one on top. This is partly because its easier to build where there is already something, which is the reason why I assume all the other oathgate cities are still thriving metropolis. But why leave a good and large city so abruptly, its very very hard for people to completely leave the place where they live. Although something shattered the plains, why not return afterwards to rebuild (even if they now need to put a lot of bridges everywhere ).

[Mulk he/him]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I know there was a city there once and the ruins remain. But its strange that the door to the SP was left open, that whichever nation lived there was wiped out/completely relocated, and that the old city wasn't built over as happened everywhere else. 

Of course your point that maybe the plains were shattered before the KR disbanded is an option. Thing is, people tend to build on top of what was once there. When archeologists found Troy, they discovered there had been 7 cities there on top of each other, when one fell or was destroyed they built the new one on top. This is partly because its easier to build where there is already something, which is the reason why I assume all the other oathgate cities are still thriving metropolis. But why leave a good and large city so abruptly, its very very hard for people to completely leave the place where they live. Although something shattered the plains, why not return afterwards to rebuild (even if they now need to put a lot of bridges everywhere ).

If the city was inhabited whenever it was destroyed, probably just about everyone died.  We have seen how difficult it is to get out to old Natanatan, how isolated it is from everywhere, and how immensely dangerous it is to get caught out there in highstorms and with pupating chasmfiends (I'd guess these have migrated their pupation range to the Plains after they were shattered), my working theory is that anyone with a tie to the old city either relocated and built New Natanan on the coast, or they moved into Alethela/Alethkar rather than deal with the issues.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 minute ago, Mulk said:

If the city was inhabited whenever it was destroyed, probably just about everyone died.  We have seen how difficult it is to get out to old Natanatan, how isolated it is from everywhere, and how immensely dangerous it is to get caught out there in highstorms and with pupating chasmfiends (I'd guess these have migrated their pupation range to the Plains after they were shattered), my working theory is that anyone with a tie to the old city either relocated and built New Natanan on the coast, or they moved into Alethela/Alethkar rather than deal with the issues.

Off the top of my head, the only disaster in our world that totally killed everyone in a city is Pompei. Even then some escaped in boats, but since there is no sea here lets ignore that. Which disaster could we put on par of a fiery volcano to destroy the plains and kill absolutely everyone alive while simultaneusly not breaking the buildings?

[Mulk he/him]

I don't know, but there are things that happen in Roshar that cannot happen here and apparently vice versa since they don't seem to have plate tectonics as we do.  Whatever it was (and I'd guess Brandon would RAFO it if he was or would be asked) it did destroy the plains without fully destroying the city, but I think the city itself probably suffered a lot of damage.  Supposing Navani was correct and Natanatan/Stormseat died in the last Desolation, most of the population was probably already dead anyway.  Or, the shattering of the Plains may have cut them off from food supplies and they starved.

Even if I am wrong and they lived, the trouble of getting supplies and repair people into the place may have been so much trouble they decided to move and not try to rebuild.  Or the shattering itself may have attracted the chasmfiends in the first place and that made it seem too dangerous.  I don't know, but there's any number of logical reasons to abandon a city in those circumstances.

[Calderis he/him]

I think this is being looked at backwards. 

I don't think any of the Oathgates were locked in Urithiru. I think Stormseat was unlocked because it was the only Oathgate that was left alone. 

The one in Kholinar is literally built into the palace. It's very possible that the construction interfered with the mechanism. The others likely have similar problems. They were both present and forgotten, so time has added pieces that block the parts from moving. 

Stormseats was sealed away and unaltered. So it was still usable. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Calderis

[Mulk he/him]

For my part, I don't think anything was locked in Urithiru either.  I just think they're locked from the other side.  I also think Jasnah probably didn't recognize in Kholinar what the slot for operating it was, or if she did, didn't want to risk summoning her spren as a sword where people might see her doing it or without having an idea of what would happen if she opened the gate.

[SilverTiger she/her]

What I wonder, is what will happen when they do unlock and start using the Kholinar one. After all, the palace is built ON TOP OF IT (I think?). That might be a major issue when using it, if the oathgate isn't the flat, open platform it originally was. What if they reappear in a wall or something? *shudders*

[Mulk he/him]

5 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

What I wonder, is what will happen when they do unlock and start using the Kholinar one. After all, the palace is built ON TOP OF IT (I think?). That might be a major issue when using it, if the oathgate isn't the flat, open platform it originally was. What if they reappear in a wall or something? *shudders*

My guess, and I'm sure it's the guess of others around here, is that the Oathgate performs an exact swap from one spot to the other, so whatever of the Kholinar palace is currently part of the Oathgate would get swapped over to Urithiru and the open platform in Urithiru would get swapped into its place. Thus there is no possibility of transporting you into a wall

[SilverTiger she/her]

2 minutes ago, Mulk said:

My guess, and I'm sure it's the guess of others around here, is that the Oathgate performs an exact swap from one spot to the other, so whatever of the Kholinar palace is currently part of the Oathgate would get swapped over to Urithiru and the open platform in Urithiru would get swapped into its place. Thus there is no possibility of transporting you into a wall

That means a lot of people are going to unexpectedly end up in Urithiru. Except, the crem-covered dome on the Stormseat gate didn't go, so would the palace? Or any other building on an oathgate?

[Mulk he/him]

 

Just now, SilverTiger said:

That means a lot of people are going to unexpectedly end up in Urithiru. Except, the crem-covered dome on the Stormseat gate didn't go, so would the palace? Or any other building on an oathgate?

as I recall it, Shallan had Renarin cut a hole into the crem covered dome at Stormseat to get inside where the mechanism was, and that the working of the mechanism moved the doorway so it was in a different spot so Adolin cut his way out of it again.  As there seems to be little to no crem up in Urithiru as it appears to be above the storms, I'd say the crem-covered dome was indeed transported.

[BlackYeti he/him]

2 hours ago, Mulk said:

 

as I recall it, Shallan had Renarin cut a hole into the crem covered dome at Stormseat to get inside where the mechanism was, and that the working of the mechanism moved the doorway so it was in a different spot so Adolin cut his way out of it again.  As there seems to be little to no crem up in Urithiru as it appears to be above the storms, I'd say the crem-covered dome was indeed transported.

There is crem at Urithiru: Dalinar could only open the trapdoor at the top of the tower by slicing through the crem with his Shardblade. There may not be as much crem up there as there is at the Shattered Plains, but if there's enough to form an obstruction at the top (which could be as much as a kilometre higher than the Oathgate platforms), then it seems likely that the Oathgate doorways could have been encased in crem, if not as much as at the Stormseat Oathgate.

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Wonder what there was on the Shattered Plains to deserve an Oathgate. Everywhere else there are remains of the old cities, even if they built entirely on top of them, the other Oathgates are on currently important cities. Yet not only was the SP completely barren and empty, but it was the only door left open. Makes one consider if what shattered the plains is related to the Recreance.

 

There was a huge city where now are the shattered plains. It was a plot point in WoR: the whole place is made of crem-covered buildings. The nation of natanatan had its capital there.

 

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

 While honestly, what I thought when I saw it is that it is a wonder the current kingdoms are so similar to the 10 Silver Kingdoms and don't have even more shifted borders. Its been thousands of years, all that time ago for us we had Egypt and Babylon in their full glory, or even their predecesors . Since then maps have changed...a lot.

There must be good defensive natural features favoring that. In europe french and germanic people had been battling around the river Rhine from before the roman empire, but the river has always been the border for most of its course. Same for hyspanic and french people around the pyrenees. Sometimes a natural division works well enough that borders tend to cling to it. Bigger, nigh-impassable features like the hymalaia or the sahara are an extreme version of this, though in that case there isn't even a real border  between two countries but rather a nobody's land

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

There was a huge city where now are the shattered plains. It was a plot point in WoR: the whole place is made of crem-covered buildings. The nation of natanatan had its capital there

I know, I should have clarified more there. There was a city on the SP, but it was the only one fully abandoned that we know of (other than Aimia, and the problems there are different). Even the shattering of the plains by itself doesn't seem like enough to completely abandon a city, even a ruined one. Humans are very resilient. 

[Salkara]

7 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Wonder what there was on the Shattered Plains to deserve an Oathgate.

The Shattered Plains were the site of Natanatan's capital, Stormseat, during the time of the Silver Kingdoms.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I know, I should have clarified more there. There was a city on the SP, but it was the only one fully abandoned that we know of (other than Aimia, and the problems there are different). Even the shattering of the plains by itself doesn't seem like enough to completely abandon a city, even a ruined one. Humans are very resilient. 

On the other hand, I wonder what exactly happened to Aimia. We know it was "scoured", but we have no idea how it was possible to destroy a whole race of beings as powerful as the sleepless, and why nobody tried to live in the empty land afterwards.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

On the other hand, I wonder what exactly happened to Aimia. We know it was "scoured", but we have no idea how it was possible to destroy a whole race of beings as powerful as the sleepless, and why nobody tried to live in the empty land afterwards.

We should get more information on that on OB. Also suspect the sleepless might not have been destroyed, as much as relocated to pretend to be destroyed.

[TheWadehart he/him]

Hey guys Oathbringer is out,  we have new maps!  So going over the the map that Salkara made (the black and white one along with the idea of drawing straight lines from the colored map (sorry I don't know it's creator.  Please forgive my use of it.) I came up with the 3rd map.

Now I admit what I am about to say may not hold up on a globus of Roshar, and I CERTAINLY don't want to slight Brandon's and Peter's dedication, but I have to seriously ask if Brandon and Peter would have plotted this on a GIS program capable of creating a globus?

The plot I drew up raises some interesting questions.

1) As you can see, you can plot all of the vectors thru or very close to where Urithiru is plotted on the map.  So, question is why?  Is there something special about Urithiru other than its fantastic defensive location, something that allowed the creation of the gates? Or, is it  more mundane? Were the Cities' Oathgate locations chosen first and Urithiru simply happened to be a least common denominator location?

2) Two of the vectors connect different cities. Kholinar -> Azimir and Thaylen City -> Panatham. So extrapolating from this and treating all 10 gates at Urithiru as a common whole:  DOES there need to be an even number of cities on a vector to balance the math? We know how much symmetry is valued on Roshar.

That being the case what about the Stormseat->Vedenar->Urithiru vector?  It's interesting that this vector continues thru Shinovar and then Aimia.  Given that, I took some liberties.  We know that Akinah is beyond one of the larger islands.   And, as far as Shinovar is concerned, we now know that humans came from another world and humans love building cities on rivers and deltas. Given these facts and the vector line I think the gates may be close to the two points I plotted.

3) So that leads to a couple of flaws.  Ral Elorim and Kurth.  If they have them, where are their balancing gates to the south of Urithiru?

4)  The huge gaps In the Northeast and Southwest.  Why?  One possible answer might be the location of Honor's and Cultivation's Perpendicularities.  Maybe the gate vectors have to be a certain distance from the Perpendicularities.  I realize the Kholinar vector goes straight thru the Horneater peaks.  But we now know that Cultivation's is in the peaks.  If the perpendicularity is in the northern peaks this might hold up. And if that's the case, even though the second Perpendicularity is supposed to appear in random locations and times, could there be something else on the Tukar Peninsula near Icewater?