[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[Guest]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I understand how devastating it may be for those preferring the Kaladin/Shallan relationship

Yes, go ahead and call everyone of us blinded by bias and be done with it. I was expecting more of you.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Man would have never thought there would be so many passionate opinions on romance in one of Brandon’s books! As much as I love his books it’s not something I’ve ever felt was his strong suit. A testimate to how much better he gets with each book. 

[Aminar]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I will respond to some of the commentaries I have read today: this is mean to no one in particular because the forum doesn't allow me to quote people from two different pages. It is cumbersome to do so. These are therefore my thoughts on the ongoing conversation.

Adolin and his Attitude

I have seen this one come up a few time, readers wondering how the Adolin we are currently reading correlates with the Adolin was have been reading within the past books. To this I will answer they are both the same character, but what previously was hinted through the narrative was now made obvious. In shorts, one of the description elements I have advanced, in the past, was how much Adolin was actually hiding. There are several moments where he comments on the need to appear confident such as not to worry Renarin or the need to not let his family know he has doubts because they rely on him. It has always seems to me, one aspect of Adolin's character, has been this need, this self-inflicted pressure to be strong, to be steady, to be confident, to be the pillar everyone rests on. This man just does NOT want to break so whenever something bad happens to him, he shoves it inside, forgets about it and keeps on moving forward.

All of this, we could see in WoK and WoR, but it kind of went against how many readers have chose to read Adolin. Thus, for the same reasons I believe many readers have assumed Adolin would react in a specific way after murdering Sadeas. They expected him to be visibly affected, to be depressed, to look guilty or perhaps to turn sneaky. Even I expected him to speak up much faster then he seems to be doing. Those impressions turned out not being entirely accurate because while Adolin is a straight-forward honest guy, his desire to remain this strong impenetrable rock are just stronger. Isn't how Dalinar thinks of Adolin? Steady Adolin?

It is thus when Adolin murders a Highprince, his impulse aren't to admit his guilt because it would mean not being strong anymore, it would admitting failure, it would break the image he thinks he needs to have. Instead, he keeps on focusing on what he can do, on being useful in whichever way is possible, but it does not mean he does not care. We see he cares, we see he is disturbed. We see it within both of his viewpoint chapters and we also see it in his overall reactions. Adolin in OB is WAY more emotional than Adolin in WoK or WoR was. He is very edgy and being very edgy makes him more emotionally reactive to all stimulus, including joy.

Does he care? Of course he cares, he behaves this way because he cares. It is built within Adolin's psychology that his family NEEDS him, they need him ti be forever strong, hence Adolin is trying very hard not to let the murder affect him. And I suspect he will keep on trying up until he reaches the limit of his ability to cope. Everyone has a breaking point, I think we haven't reached Adolin's, but I think we are close as for someone having built an entire persona around the idea of being forever strong, steady and perfect, it demands a lot to overcome it and admit to the opposite. 

To conclude I would say yes, Adolin's attitude is perfectly in line with the character we have been reading. It may however be readers have not catch the clues which highlighted this behavior was coming.

Adolin and Shallan are Still Superficial

Ah I don't get this one, honestly. I understand how devastating it may be for those preferring the Kaladin/Shallan relationship to read those chapters where Adolin and Shallan clearly states they genuinely want to be together. I will however state claiming they remain superficial, they remain only physical and they have no connection is a tad far-fetched. Those chapters showed us book smart Adolin, passionate Adolin and a Shallan who undeniably wanted to pursue a relationship with him. They clicked. They worked. They were happy together, for the right reasons. 

I also read two kids both being deeply afraid they would screw the relationship over, both seemed alarmed at thinking it may not work for reasons out of their control. I mean, when Shallan genuinely, in all honesty says she likes Adolin, she is fond of Adolin, she crushes on Adolin, she may be falling in love with Adolin and lastly she most definitely wants to be with Adolin without any afterthought whatsoever, stating she secretly arbors a deep passion for Kaladin is... a bit of an over-statement at this point in time within the story.

So while yes, making the promise they will not screw it up was a little bit naive, but it was endearing and I hope they will remember.

And yes, Shallan becoming Brigthness Radiant was odd, but she needed it to overcome her block. I didn't read it as her lying to Adolin: Brightness Radiant and Shallan are the same person. She just dissociates her personality into herself, but she remains Shallan. I really do not see this as lying, not anymore than Adolin is lying by pretending nothing ever gets to him. She just needs to be this person to yield Pattern. So while it may be I am wrong, I am not overly worried about it.

I personally found the chapters dealt with a lot of the negative comment their relationships got within WoR. I obviously cannot convince others, but I felt it. I felt two young people slowly, but irrevocably falling in love with each other. It may be they will screw it up, it may be, at some point Shallan will explore things with Kaladin, but those chapters made gave me good vibe for Adolin and Shallan.

I've never understood the superficiality argument either. I mean, they haven't supported eachother through any major tragedies or anything, but their relationship looks a lot like my wife and I. Joking, talking, laughing, eating, and in general loving each other's company. And we've been doing this for 7 years. The tragedy thing is something you don't ever want early in a relationship. It colors too much too fast, or at least it can. (I speak from experience here.) Plus the whole love triangle thing is overdone almost as much as the "two people who look like they can't stand eachother are actually in love" thing. So I'm with you. It's not superficial, just more real than is often presented in regards to love. Outside of romance novels and sitcoms the best relationships are living with your best friend. That's what I see in Shallan and Adolin. Two people who actually enjoy eachother's company even when they aren't tearing clothing off/hateloving eachother. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Looking good so far 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Plus the whole love triangle thing is overdone almost as much as the "two people who look like they can't stand eachother are actually in love" thing.

Same could be said about that whole "arranged marriage works out perfectly" trope in Brandons books. It's a non-argument.

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

I've never understood the superficiality argument either. I mean, they haven't supported eachother through any major tragedies or anything, but their relationship looks a lot like my wife and I. Joking, talking, laughing, eating, and in general loving each other's company.

That is great for you. Really.

But I don't think your wife was in constant depression and suffering panic attacks, because she had to kill her own mother at the age of eleven and her father at the age of sixteen. Just as you hadn't killed that friend of your father, who was a cremhole, but influential.

Sorry, but if you compare relationships at least make it believable.

I'm not arguing, that they don't enjoy their company. They obviously do. And that's great, but I am arguing, that there are underlying problems, that both want to seem to ignore. Especially Shallan.

To everyone saying to give them time: I would agree, if I didn't know Shallan. She is a pathological liar and deceiver, that is just who she is. I don't mean to make her out as a bad person, but I don't trust her enough to be honest with Adolin. Ever. Atleast, not until she's been convinced to be by someone else. And, to be frank, I don't think, that Adolin would be able to deal with marrying a matricide and patricide. And the topic of her childhood will come up. Sooner or later.

[Kersplattle]

I am just wondering if the Recreance is related to the Parshmen. What if the KR’s found that they were complicit in suppressing the “humanity”of (nearly) an entire race and that this was the cost of suppressing the desolation’s. Would they find this sufficiently abhorrent I wonder to agree to dissolve their bonds. That is, on finding that they can’t force the nations to fo go their ultra-useful slaves,they refuse to enforce the suppression.

This is giving Kaladin a way to work around this, as a “child of honour” he and his order might find it harder than most to enforce slavery. If he successfully negotiated with the Parshendi he has met to forbear from being “voidbringers” by refusing to bond voidspren maybe he can avoid this and we have a way out of the desolation cycle and a way to strike at Odium ?

This has been an idea for a while, but received, to my mind, some backing from this revelation that the Parshemn don’t automatically becom voidbringers. To me, that’s a huge reveal. Everyone in the story to date has assumed that they would, or appears to, even Nale and the Stormfather.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, Kersplattle said:

I am just wondering if the Recreance is related to the Parshmen. What if the KR’s found that they were complicit in suppressing the “humanity”of (nearly) an entire race and that this was the cost of suppressing the desolation’s. Would they find this sufficiently abhorrent I wonder to agree to dissolve their bonds. That is, on finding that they can’t force the nations to fo go their ultra-useful slaves,they refuse to enforce the suppression.

This is giving Kaladin a way to work around this, as a “child of honour” he and his order might find it harder than most to enforce slavery. If he successfully negotiated with the Parshendi he has met to forbear from being “voidbringers” by refusing to bond voidspren maybe he can avoid this and we have a way out of the desolation cycle and a way to strike at Odium ?

This has been an idea for a while, but received, to my mind, some backing from this revelation that the Parshemn don’t automatically becom voidbringers. To me, that’s a huge reveal. Everyone in the story to date has assumed that they would, or appears to, even Nale and the Stormfather.

That doesn't work as a theory for the recreance because of some orders. Yes, it might be enough for windrunners and edgedancers to walk away. But lightweavers and elsecallers? Not likely. In fact I suspect Jasnah and maybe even Shallan would have condoned the wholesale slaughter of all the parshmen before the everstorm. And those are just four of the orders, the other six might go either way.

[kari-no-sugata]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

To everyone saying to give them time: I would agree, if I didn't know Shallan. She is a pathological liar and deceiver, that is just who she is. I don't mean to make her out as a bad person, but I don't trust her enough to be honest with Adolin. Ever. Atleast, not until she's been convinced to be by someone else. And, to be frank, I don't think, that Adolin would be able to deal with marrying a matricide and patricide. And the topic of her childhood will come up. Sooner or later.

I hope that some day you'll come to a different understanding of Shallan and be able to enjoy reading her as a character.

 

44 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

That doesn't work as a theory for the recreance because of some orders. Yes, it might be enough for windrunners and edgedancers to walk away. But lightweavers and elsecallers? Not likely. In fact I suspect Jasnah and maybe even Shallan would have condoned the wholesale slaughter of all the parshmen before the everstorm. And those are just four of the orders, the other six might go either way.

 

I'm pretty sure Shallan would have been reluctant. Quoting from WoR (chapter 49, watching the world transform):

Quote

“How hard would it to be to make everyone stop using parshmen as slaves? Give them away, or . . .” Storms. She didn’t want to start a genocide here, did she? But these were the Voidbringers. “. . . or set them free or something. Get them out of the warcamps.”

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I hope that some day you'll come to a different understanding of Shallan and be able to enjoy reading her as a character.

I never said, that I don't enjoy reading her. I just don't always... get her motivations for her actions.

Edited September 28, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

58 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I never said, that I don't enjoy reading her. I just don't always... get her motivations for her actions.

Ah. I apologise. However, when you post about her, it really comes across as "condemnation" rather than "confusion".

Certainly Shallan is not easy to understand. All the major characters in this series are complex and can't be taken at face value but Shallan is particularly tricky. I've gone to a lot of effort to try to understand her better but I can't say that I can understand everything that goes through her head or everything she does. I don't think I need to repeat the most painful events in Shallan's life as those are quite obvious for the most part, though overall it is clear that Shallan has suffered greatly and for a large part of her life. Fortunately, she has only suffered mentally but that mental suffering has been extreme.

She's also had to deal with that by herself - she received very little help of any kind and actually it was generally her that was helping the others around her. The two events in her past that did help her was Helaran's brief suggestions to her in his one scene - he tells her watch over the others and to be strong for them, to draw safe things, to draw fanciful things, to draw things of brighter days, to not dwell on what happened. That's basically what she does. Wit/Hoid also gives her some advice in the Middlefest chapter but it's rather abstract, though overall you could say that he's suggesting to take a positive approach and to not despair. Despite the vagueness of the help Shallan appreciates it so much that years later Shallan hugs him the moment she meets him. It would probably be reasonable to say that Shallan is very used to solving problems herself but does appreciate useful help from others.

Shallan is generally lacking in self-esteem - she knows she's under-educated from a backwater area and she's generally down on herself. Notice how often she uses self-deprecating humour to mock herself. She doesn't value herself that highly and her sense of self-preservation can be weak. Overall, I would say that she is more negative about herself than most people are. I think this is because she blames herself for many of her problems. She also has a strong tendency to not dwell on current problems and takes a more positive view of the future, which probably makes her problems seem smaller than they really are. Putting it another way, it takes a really extreme situation to overcome Shallan's natural ability to deal with things.

I would also say that while Shallan doesn't tend to like herself much (though this is improving) she does prefer to like others and for others to like her - she generally doesn't seek conflict, despite her sarcastic tongue, though she will respond to "attacks". It's very rare for her to genuinely dislike someone. She frequently shows sympathy and empathy for others and in most cases the more time she spends with a person the more she'll like them and grow to understand them. During her trip with the slavers to the Shattered Plains she frequently empathised with the slaves and never liked Tvlakv from the start. I would say that the combination motivated her to take the slaves from him - although she told the slaves she needed them, since she never actually shows a need so I would say that this was a lie she told for their benefit. Either way, she tells them they're free to run away if they prefer and also gives them very generous rewards, to the extent that they'll likely be free quite quickly. She could tell that the slaves were uncomfortable with sudden impending freedom so this could be seen as a form of gently rehabilitating them though since we never see her reasons for all this it's quite open to interpretation.

So overall, Shallan does not take a typical hero-like attitude, not does she act like a damsel in distress. She should probably be viewed more positively than she herself does and the problems she has overcome or is currently dealing with are probably more difficult than she generally admits to. She is highly creative and curious and has her own personal approach to dealing with things. While her words are not that reliable her emotions generally are.

 

She somewhat reminds me of how Richard Feynman describes himself in "Surely You're Joking Mr Feynman", though he's more of a scientist first and an artist second while Shallan is the other way around. It's been a while since I last read the book though, so I might be remembering wrong.

[Aminar]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

Same could be said about that whole "arranged marriage works out perfectly" trope in Brandons books. It's a non-argument.

That is great for you. Really.

But I don't think your wife was in constant depression and suffering panic attacks, because she had to kill her own mother at the age of eleven and her father at the age of sixteen. Just as you hadn't killed that friend of your father, who was a cremhole, but influential.

Sorry, but if you compare relationships at least make it believable.

I'm not arguing, that they don't enjoy their company. They obviously do. And that's great, but I am arguing, that there are underlying problems, that both want to seem to ignore. Especially Shallan.

To everyone saying to give them time: I would agree, if I didn't know Shallan. She is a pathological liar and deceiver, that is just who she is. I don't mean to make her out as a bad person, but I don't trust her enough to be honest with Adolin. Ever. Atleast, not until she's been convinced to be by someone else. And, to be frank, I don't think, that Adolin would be able to deal with marrying a matricide and patricide. And the topic of her childhood will come up. Sooner or later.

Everybody has trauma. It's just not part of early relationships(and not something you share specifics of on a message board). I mean, sure, Shallan's is impressively bad, but that's just not how relationships work. You don't make a person your support structure a few months in. They aren't even two months in. That's well within the honeymoon phase of a relationship. Eventually a couple becomes a team. It takes years typically. You issues with Shallan don't change that. But the way their relationship looks is a whole lot more succesful than the cliche. 

And Brandon's tropes are still far less common than what we see across every bloody sitcom and romcom and bad movie. The tropes for Shalladin are overused and everywhere. It's why people expect it. But that makes it expected and dull. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

I am really curious if squires can capture if one of your cards are touching your opponents. All these years I have been under the assumption they cannot capture unless your left thumb is on the table and your opponents cup is only half full. 

 

 

 

[treblkickd he/him]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

That doesn't work as a theory for the recreance because of some orders. Yes, it might be enough for windrunners and edgedancers to walk away. But lightweavers and elsecallers? Not likely. In fact I suspect Jasnah and maybe even Shallan would have condoned the wholesale slaughter of all the parshmen before the everstorm. And those are just four of the orders, the other six might go either way.

Firstly, I don't think that it's clear from the books that Shallan and Jasnah would have condoned slaughtering all of the parshmen. Identifying them as a likely threat? Sure.

Thinking about the Recreance, there certainly had to have been *some* kind of big, fundamental issue that arose to drive all (well, nine) orders to dissolve themselves. It seems to me that the most likely explanation for what that issue could be comes from examining the first ideal that's shared by all orders. The idea of enslaving an entire race of people strikes me as fundamentally contradicting the "Journey before destination" part of the first ideal. I don't see how anyone with an ethical bent that we would generally describe as "good" could ever support the idea of literally stealing the free will of an entire race of people. Any argument in favor of enslavement would have to lean on an "ends justify the means" basis, which is quite literally the polar opposite of the thinking that is espoused by the first ideal. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

8 hours ago, Aminar said:

Everybody has trauma. It's just not part of early relationships(and not something you share specifics of on a message board). I mean, sure, Shallan's is impressively bad, but that's just not how relationships work. You don't make a person your support structure a few months in. They aren't even two months in. That's well within the honeymoon phase of a relationship. Eventually a couple becomes a team. It takes years typically. You issues with Shallan don't change that. But the way their relationship looks is a whole lot more succesful than the cliche. 

And Brandon's tropes are still far less common than what we see across every bloody sitcom and romcom and bad movie. The tropes for Shalladin are overused and everywhere. It's why people expect it. But that makes it expected and dull. 

I don't want to jump in the shipping wars, but if we are reducing both relationships to tropes, you can easily say Shallan and Adolin's relationship is an overused trope as well (arranged marriage that goes well, rich prince that can't commit to anyone but falls in love with the quirky girl etc ). Every relationship can be reduced to that. All three characters have things about them that could either make or break a relationship. Right now I am trying to not favor any of the pairings, but reducing Shalladin to tropes is as simplistic as doing the same with Shalladolin. They are all complex and interesting characters, that have different and potential interesting dynamics. I am sure Shallan's relationship with both will be explored further, because there are things to be considered in both cases. I feel like there is more to them than just some silly tropes. 

Also I find it a bit ironic you brought up the point of a support structure in a person, when one of the main reason against Shallan/Kaladin was that it's not healthy for Kaladin to cure his depression by being in a relationship with Shallan. I totally agree that in a relationship you partner becomes part of your support and helps you with what you are going through, as much I agree with the fact that it's not ok to rely only on one person or your partner. The way I see it, you make a person part of your support system, not the entire structure. 

Just because you or anyone else doesn't want one of the relationship to happen and prefers one over the other is not an argument against either. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Aminar]

27 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't want to jump in the shipping wars, but if we are reducing both relationships to tropes, you can easily say Shallan and Adolin's relationship is an overused trope as well (arranged marriage that goes well, rich prince that can't commit to anyone but falls in love for the quirky girl etc ). Every relationship can be reduced to that. All three characters have things about them that could either make or break a relationship. Right now I am trying to not favor any of the pairings, but reducing Shalladin to tropes is as simplistic as doing the same with Shalladolin. They are all complex and interesting characters, that have different and potential interesting dynamics. I am sure Shallan's relationship with both will be explore further, because there are things to be considered in both cases. I feel like there is more to them then just some silly tropes. 

Also I find it a bit ironic you brought up the point of a support structure in a person, when one of the main reason against Shallan/Kaladin was that it's not healthy for Kaladin to cure his depression by being in a relationship with Shallan. I totally agree that in a relationship you partner becomes part of your support and helps you with what you are going through, as much I agree with the fact that it's not ok to rely only on one person or your partner. The way I see it, you make a person part of your support system, not the entire structure. 

Just because you or anyone else doesn't want one of the relationship to happen and prefers one over the other is not an argument against either. 

Tropes is all Shalladin has. Its page time has been two or three antagonistic scenes between the two and one dangerous outing in which they saved each other's lives(which is the plot of a lot of oh so many bad romance subplots). They've never had a conversation in a situation that wasn't rife with external conflict. 

Meanwhile Adolin and Shallan have something resembling an actual relationship. That's most of my argument. It's more than just the tropes because they have the domestic pagetime to work with. 

And adding a love triangle subplot is always annoying. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Aminar

[Hischier]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Everybody has trauma. It's just not part of early relationships(and not something you share specifics of on a message board). I mean, sure, Shallan's is impressively bad, but that's just not how relationships work. You don't make a person your support structure a few months in. They aren't even two months in. That's well within the honeymoon phase of a relationship. Eventually a couple becomes a team. It takes years typically. You issues with Shallan don't change that. But the way their relationship looks is a whole lot more succesful than the cliche. 

And Brandon's tropes are still far less common than what we see across every bloody sitcom and romcom and bad movie. The tropes for Shalladin are overused and everywhere. It's why people expect it. But that makes it expected and dull. 

First, I'm not going to comment on the shipping wars other than to say that these are the first chapters where I actually understand why people like Shadolin. In the past I thought the two were really awkward together, and well I'll leave it at that right now. 

Now, this is a general comment not something specific to the relationship thing.  While I get that part of why people love Brandon's work is that he is very good at doing the unexpected, just because something isn't completely original doesn't make it bad. Sometimes the expected thing makes for the best story. If you can pull it off with compelling characters and make other parts of the story original (such as Roshar which is a very interesting and magical setting) I'll take that over a story with a convoluted twist.  Also, even in the most original story some big parts of a story are going to be tropes and that's perfectly fine.  

Basically what I'm saying is expected isn't a synonym for dull, and original doesn't always or even usually equal good.  

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Hischier said:

First, I'm not going to comment on the shipping wars other than to say that these are the first chapters where I actually understand why people like Shadolin. In the past I thought the two were really awkward together, and well I'll leave it at that right now. 

Now, this is a general comment not something specific to the relationship thing.  While I get that part of why people love Brandon's work is that he is very good at doing the unexpected, just because something isn't completely original doesn't make it bad. Sometimes the expected thing makes for the best story. If you can pull it off with compelling characters and make other parts of the story original (such as Roshar which is a very interesting and magical setting) I'll take that over a story with a convoluted twist.  Also, even in the most original story some big parts of a story are going to be tropes and that's perfectly fine.  

Basically what I'm saying is expected isn't a synonym for dull, and original doesn't always or even usually equal good.  

For example, we all expect some kind of happy ending for SA. If it didn't end with some sort of happy ending, would it be really worth the 10 books? And all the pain we'll be put through?

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

10 hours ago, Aminar said:

Plus the whole love triangle thing is overdone almost as much as the "two people who look like they can't stand eachother are actually in love" thing.

Same could be said about that whole "arranged marriage works out perfectly" trope in Brandons books. It's a non-argument.

@SLNC Amen to that.  

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Tropes is all Shalladin has. Its page time has been two or three antagonistic scenes between the two and one dangerous outing in which they saved each other's lives(which is the plot of a lot of oh so many bad romance subplots). They've never had a conversation in a situation that wasn't rife with external conflict. 

Meanwhile Adolin and Shallan have something resembling an actual relationship. That's most of my argument. It's more than just the tropes because they have the domestic pagetime to work with. 

See, but the thing is, although I have always been open in saying, that I think, that Shallan and Kaladin fit better characterwise, I'm currently not even bringing up Shalladin. All I'm arguing about, that the Shallan / Adolin relationship isn't so peachy as it is being made out.

But since it has already been brought up: We don't know what happened between Shallan and Brightlord Brooding-Eyes between them arriving in Urithiru and Kaladin leaving for Alethkar.

I agree, that Kaladin is not on Shallan's radar right now, but it is always easy to block someone out, when he isn't present.

Edited September 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

17 minutes ago, Hischier said:

First, I'm not going to comment on the shipping wars other than to say that these are the first chapters where I actually understand why people like Shadolin. In the past I thought the two were really awkward together, and well I'll leave it at that right now. 

Agreed! I always thought the relationship was superficial, but I'm now starting to get it.  This leads me to my next comment...

 

18 minutes ago, Hischier said:

Now, this is a general comment not something specific to the relationship thing.  While I get that part of why people love Brandon's work is that he is very good at doing the unexpected, just because something isn't completely original doesn't make it bad. Sometimes the expected thing makes for the best story. If you can pull it off with compelling characters and make other parts of the story original (such as Roshar which is a very interesting and magical setting) I'll take that over a story with a convoluted twist.  Also, even in the most original story some big parts of a story are going to be tropes and that's perfectly fine.  

Basically what I'm saying is expected isn't a synonym for dull, and original doesn't always or even usually equal good.  

I think that the shippers and people that are loathing the tropes should trust the author to deliver a great story.  He always delivers.  Allow him to deliver. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Tropes is all Shalladin has. Its page time has been two or three antagonistic scenes between the two and one dangerous outing in which they saved each other's lives(which is the plot of a lot of oh so many bad romance subplots). They've never had a conversation in a situation that wasn't rife with external conflict. 

Meanwhile Adolin and Shallan have something resembling an actual relationship. That's most of my argument. It's more than just the tropes because they have the domestic pagetime to work with. 

And adding a love triangle subplot is always annoying. 

Look I really don't want to defend one relationship over the other. I hope I am not coming across as this, because I am mostly trying to stay impartial until I see both things developing further. PRO and CON arguments, have been made for both of the relationships, there is no need to bring those up, and I mostly agree with both sides when they are connected to each character's personality . Things as tropes or "oh, they only connected because they were in a life threatening situation" , they will take up too much page time or love triangles are boring are not in my opinion valid points, because they could go bad if the author is bad or the characters are weak and the "love" is the only the only thing defining them, which is definitely not the case here. You can of course have a preference on what you want to see happen or not, but preferences are not valid arguments. 

I am saying these things  because I personally have faith that Brandon knows his characters best and the direction things will go, is the direction is natural for them to go. We are seeing parts of the story and try to fit them in the bigger picture as best as we can. I said this another time as well, but what I love about BS is the way he can take simple or overused tropes, spin them and make the reader see things in a different light. Life is full of tropes and no idea is original, but everything can be mixed and twisted in order to create something special.

Edited September 28, 2017 by mariapapadia

[The Invested Beard]

Having these chapters release early has been a great thing, but if there's one downside for me it's the intensification of all the shipping nonsense. I mean come on guys I don't really see Brandon making this particular relationship (either way) a giant plot device. So trust he'll work it out in a way that is true to his characters and enjoy the ride.

[mariapapadia she/her]

7 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Having these chapters release early has been a great thing, but if there's one downside for me it's the intensification of all the shipping nonsense. I mean come on guys I don't really see Brandon making this particular relationship (either way) a giant plot device. So trust he'll work it out in a way that is true to his characters and enjoy the ride.

Thank you ! This should be a pinned post if such thing would exist ! 

[The Invested Beard]

9 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Thank you ! This should be a pinned post if such thing would exist ! 

Aw shucks! *shuffles feet*

[Agent34]

1 minute ago, The Invested Beard said:

Aw shucks! *shuffles feet*

I ship it.