[OB] Shallan is Insane - and I can prove it.

[aemetha he/him]

A few points. The DSM-V can only be used to diagnose "anyone" with a mental disorder if one ignores the catch all intended to prevent "anyone" from being diagnosed. It is not enough to just exhibit the specific diagnostic criteria for a disorder, it must also constitute significant impairment or distress in order to be clinically significant. Also, it is considered an ethical breach to diagnose someone publicly and without a private consultation, and so the armchair psychologists and psychiatrists that have caused the development of this misinterpretation of the dsm should be acknowledged for exactly what they are - unethical hacks.

As is pointed out above, dissociative identity disorder is an unconscious protective response, which is quite different from what Shallan is doing, which would best be described as an avoidance stress coping technique. Generally speaking avoidance stress coping techniques are considered adaptive in the short term as they shield the person from sudden overwhelming trauma but may become maladaptive in the longer term if appropriate approach techniques for coping with the stressor are not employed.

I think it is unfair to say that Freud was wrong about a lot of things. He was imprecise more often. He is often ridiculed as being overly fixated on sexuality, but most people don't even know what the actual references are. I would encourage people to look up his psychosexual theory of development, in which the sexual analogies for the stages actually make a great deal of sense. It probably says more about a cultural immaturity toward issues of sexuality than it does about him that we find what is a reasonably apt analogy to be worthy of giggling over. Freud may not have been as right as we want, but he was more right than those who came before him and his work is the foundation of the psychodynamic school of thought.

It is also worth considering that several very prominent psychologists would tell you that Shallans traumatic past just isn't worthy of this degree of analysis. Why does it matter that she killed her parents, the issue is that she feels guilty when she holds her sword. Ellis and Beck would encourage her to explore the faulty assumption that is causing her to have this irrational (Ellis) or dysfunctional (Beck) response, and not give more attention to the history of it than is required to disabuse her of that assumption. Emperically the cognitive school of psychotherapy is as valid, if not more than the psychodynamic traditions.

 

[Aminar]

5 hours ago, aemetha said:

A few points. The DSM-V can only be used to diagnose "anyone" with a mental disorder if one ignores the catch all intended to prevent "anyone" from being diagnosed. It is not enough to just exhibit the specific diagnostic criteria for a disorder, it must also constitute significant impairment or distress in order to be clinically significant. Also, it is considered an ethical breach to diagnose someone publicly and without a private consultation, and so the armchair psychologists and psychiatrists that have caused the development of this misinterpretation of the dsm should be acknowledged for exactly what they are - unethical hacks.

As is pointed out above, dissociative identity disorder is an unconscious protective response, which is quite different from what Shallan is doing, which would best be described as an avoidance stress coping technique. Generally speaking avoidance stress coping techniques are considered adaptive in the short term as they shield the person from sudden overwhelming trauma but may become maladaptive in the longer term if appropriate approach techniques for coping with the stressor are not employed.

I think it is unfair to say that Freud was wrong about a lot of things. He was imprecise more often. He is often ridiculed as being overly fixated on sexuality, but most people don't even know what the actual references are. I would encourage people to look up his psychosexual theory of development, in which the sexual analogies for the stages actually make a great deal of sense. It probably says more about a cultural immaturity toward issues of sexuality than it does about him that we find what is a reasonably apt analogy to be worthy of giggling over. Freud may not have been as right as we want, but he was more right than those who came before him and his work is the foundation of the psychodynamic school of thought.

It is also worth considering that several very prominent psychologists would tell you that Shallans traumatic past just isn't worthy of this degree of analysis. Why does it matter that she killed her parents, the issue is that she feels guilty when she holds her sword. Ellis and Beck would encourage her to explore the faulty assumption that is causing her to have this irrational (Ellis) or dysfunctional (Beck) response, and not give more attention to the history of it than is required to disabuse her of that assumption. Emperically the cognitive school of psychotherapy is as valid, if not more than the psychodynamic traditions.

Pretty sure using the DSM for fictional characters is fine. Especially given Shallan's regular lack of normal function(her trauma is absolutely making it hard for her to live the life she wants, as evidenced by the techniques she's used to get around it and the way confronting it has helped push her closer to her goals(although having those come from an external source and with magical benefits to boot is outside the norm anyway)). But I agree she lacks any symptoms of DID. 

And Freud is still hopelessly outdated. The fact he's the first thing most people learn about psychology, and that he appears as a major portion in courses not called, "The History of Psychology", is an incredible tragedy that furthers people's lack of trust in the field as a whole. 

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, aemetha said:

Also, it is considered an ethical breach to diagnose someone publicly and without a private consultation, and so the armchair psychologists and psychiatrists that have caused the development of this misinterpretation of the dsm should be acknowledged for exactly what they are - unethical hacks.

Look up the development of the Goldwater Rule. As much as it uses the word "unethical" it has little to do with ethics and far more to do with public relations. It's a rule that's being hotly debated right now. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

Psychology is just whooshing over my head right now. 

[aemetha he/him]

3 hours ago, Aminar said:

Pretty sure using the DSM for fictional characters is fine.

Yes, I agree. I had meant to make the argument that the argument against using the DSM to diagnose a fictional character doesn't hold water because it's based on a misinterpretation that developed because of people not applying the protections included in the DSM against diagnosing every man and his dog with a mental disorder were not rigorously applied. If Shallan is to be said to have a mental disorder, then that should be defined as a mental disorder in the DSM, not based on the fairly abstract thoughts of Freud and Jung, which as you rightly point out have been refined and distilled into more precise and accurate theories in the intervening years.

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Look up the development of the Goldwater Rule. As much as it uses the word "unethical" it has little to do with ethics and far more to do with public relations. It's a rule that's being hotly debated right now. 

Goldwater rule or not, confidentiality is an essential element of the therapeutic alliance and it is never ethically appropriate for any professional to publicly diagnose a person without the explicit wishes of said person. The profession of psychotherapy exists to help people, and removing confidentiality handicaps and harms the people it tries to help. I know of no professional psychotherapy organisation that does not require confidentiality.

[Calderis he/him]

@aemetha Confidentiality is crucial. I completely agree. That has nothing to do with the Goldwater Rule.

If a public figure displays characteristics that show they are suffering from a condition that makes them either incapable of fulfilling their duties, or worse, become an outright threat to the well-being of the people they are supposed to be serving, at what point does the Psychiatric community ethically need to intercede to avoid harm?

At what point does the responsibility of the people with the credentials and expertise to recognize a problem require them to act to the detriment of an individual in the name of preventing harm? 

That question is precisely why the Goldwater Rule has been heavily questioned recently. 

If your actions are public knowledge, confidentiality is not the issue. 

[aemetha he/him]

@Calderis that's a good argument for intervention, but it is a poor argument for a public intervention. A public commentary on the issue inevitably causes stigma and would in all likelihood alienate the person concerned from the profession that can help them. A persons actions can be public knowledge, but that does not make their diagnosis public knowledge or justify the publicity of their diagnosis. One is a disclosure about themselves by a person perfectly entitled to disclose their information in the public domain, the other is a disclosure by a person without any right to make that disclosure, without having met the professional standards required to properly establish the information they are disclosing, without the permission of the person the disclosure is about, and -  lets be honest - is not being made out of a sense of civic duty, but rather for the publicity associated with the disclosure.

The reason the Goldwater rule has been heavily questioned is the notoriously left leaning profession wants to justify the removal of office of Donald Trump. They are by the professional standards (many in addition to the Goldwater rule) of their own professions not qualified to do so in that instance, so they seek to modify the professional standards to advance their own political agenda. Now I am a member of those groups and I would also like to see him removed from office, but sacrificing the protections in place to protect all individuals for a selfish political agenda is an unacceptable sacrifice for me.

If mental instability is a civic concern for elected officials, then a confidential system of assessing the mental stability of elected officials overseen by an independent body is the proper way to deal with that, not removing the ethical protections in place for people who turn to the profession for help. Psychologists and psychiatrists have the same right to vote for that as any other individual. They do not have the right to arbitrarily appoint themselves as an agency empowered to disqualify someone from public office.

[kari-no-sugata]

This is an interesting discussion but it's going a bit off-topic.

I think that what Shallan is doing here is similar to method acting. Anyone disagree? (There are known dangers to method acting of course and they seem somewhat similar to some of the concerns people have about what Shallan is doing...)

[mariapapadia she/her]

23 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Compare Shallan's last interaction with Pattern in WoR. Then see the difference between that and the first batch of Shallan chapters. Then compare those to the latest. Each shows progress, I would say (after her relationship got knocked back a lot). It's going to take Shallan time to fully comes to terms with it.

 

The last thing Shallan said to Pattern in WoR is "I hate you" and that she wants her family back. The first time we see her in OB, she is ignoring Pattern and finding excuses that the Blade and him are different. Each time he tries to open the subject of her mother's death she goes in denial, so much that she has to create another persona in order to stand using him as a sword. Sorry, but I don't see improvement, I see someone that is avoiding the truth. 

 

23 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Why is it the default assumption that the personas will go out of control? Is it even a safe assumption that she will make more and more personas that she uses regularly? If so, why? She doesn't create them just for fun but to solve really difficult problems - problems that Shallan cannot handle. Those don't turn up very often as she's very good at problem solving. It's not like she's inventing a new persona just to do the chores or something.

It's true, we don't know yet if she will create more versions of herself, but I think it's not that crazy to asume that this is a pattern she will follow (like the copycat murder. We don't have any assurance there will be another one, but everyone kind of expects it). When it comes to Veil I agree it was out of necessity and she was being pragmatic. But I don't get the same feeling from Radiant. Why? Because Radiant came from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth and I feel like it can be really easy for her to get lost in that. In a comfort place where she doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that she killed her parents and her spren, her powers and what she is facilitated that. What would stop her for leaving Shallan behind and embrace this new composed persona ? I am not saying is happening, but that is very possible and easy to do. This is why I am worried for her. 

 

23 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Me too. I see Shallan as basically being the opposite of Vin, so far. But she has already fought and killed Tyn, for example. That doesn't make her a warrior. Learning to fight with a Shardblade enough at least she she can use it for self-defence wouldn't make her a warrior either. I really doubt Shallan is going to make a habit of fighting but it would seem rather dumb for her to avoid it completely.

I agree Shallan is very different from Vin, my thoughts were that I don't want another expert fighter/warrior female character. At least not in Shallan. I agree she has to know how to defend herself and I hope it will end with some basic knowledge of that. 

21 hours ago, Aminar said:

The personas aren't seperate. They're characters. Like how when Brandon writes Shallan he mentally becomes Shallan for a time. She's never going to control Brandon. Or like how "writing case notes Aminar" is different from "meeting clients Aminar" is different from "At home with the wife Aminar". But augmented a little by magic(but really only by her illusions) 

Anything more is looking too far into what she's dealing with. Dissociative identity disorder works very differently, and Brandon is the kind of writer that does his research. Especially with a series where mental illness is a huge and intentional subtheme. 

Look I am not saying Shallan is crazy, I don't belive she is crazy or she has DID, not yet at least. But she is traumatized. She's been a victim of abuse and now she is trying to cope with that as best as she is able to. I don't blame her and I am not saying it's not a natural reaction. But I don't think you can resume it to trying to invent a different character for a little boost of confidence. It's not a 'fake it till you make it" kind of situation. At least not in my mind. We're not talking about social anxiety or fear of public speaking. This is someone who doesn't want to come to terms with the fact she killed her parents and her mother tried to kill her.

As cliche as it sounds "The first step to solve a problem is to admit you have one". IMO she has to face her fears and come to terms with what she did and then I will say this habit of hers is harmless. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[aemetha he/him]

@kari-no-sugata you're right, my apologies for the tangent.

In stress psychology there are concepts called appraisal and coping, I'll try and summarise it concisely.

When a person encounters a stimulus, a system of appraisal takes place. Primary appraisal categorises the stimulus as either irrelevant, beneficial or stressful. If it is considered stressful we call that stimulus a "stressor". Secondary appraisal appraises the stressor against a persons internal ability and resources to cope with it. Reappraisal is repeating the appraisal process in light of new information.

The secondary appraisal part is what is relevant to what Shallan is doing. The stimulus - her sword has been appraised as stressful in primary appraisal, and she assesses that against her ability to cope with it. She has the ability to try on different persona's, so she employs that as a coping technique to reduce the impact of the traumatic stressor on her psyche.

So we come now to the concept of coping. Coping can be described as adaptive or maladaptive. An adaptive coping response is one that reduces the harm associated with a stressor - the person successfully adapted their behaviour to the context to reduce harm. A maladaptive coping response is one that either makes the harms of the stressor worse, or that introduces new stressors and so increases the total harm. A coping technique can in fact be both adaptive and maladaptive at different points, lets take the example of opioids. A one of administration of opioids to treat an injury would probably be considered adaptive, but chronic administration that leads to addiction would certainly be considered maladaptive.

Coping techniques are further grouped into what is known as approach techniques and avoidance techniques. Approach techniques seek to directly confront the stressor and remove it. Approach techniques are considered to generally be adaptive in the long term, but in the short term they can cause serious trauma - sometimes we need a period of adjustment before we feel confident dealing with something. Additionally, not all stressors can be effectively removed by approach techniques. The other type of technique is called avoidance techniques. As the name suggests, this involves avoiding or working around the source of stress. They are generally considered to be adaptive in the short term, but because they do not seek to remove the source of stress they can in the long term become maladaptive.

What Shallan is doing would be considered an avoidance coping technique, she is not confronting the source of stress, and is trying on a different persona in an effort to avoid the trauma of the stressor. At this time, you couldn't call her response maladaptive, indeed it effectively shielded her from the source of the trauma, and there are at this time no significant harms introduced or a worsening of the existing harm. Far from being insane, it's an entirely rational (at this time) and beneficial response to the stress she has recently begun to experience. I could foresee a circumstance where it could become maladaptive, but at this time I would not be concerned about this particular response as long as she doesn't rely on it in the long term to avoid addressing the core issues.

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

The last thing Shallan said to Pattern in WoR is "I hate you" and that she wants her family back. The first time we see her in OB, she is ignoring Pattern and finding excuses that the Blade and him are different. Each time he tries to open the subject of her mother's death she goes in denial, so much that she has to create another persona in order to stand using him as a sword. Sorry, but I don't see improvement, I see someone that is avoiding the truth. 

 

It's true, we don't know yet if she will create more versions of herself, but I think it's not that crazy to asume that this is a pattern she will follow (like the copycat murder. We don't have any assurance there will be another one, but everyone kind of expects it). When it comes to Veil I agree it was out of necessity and she was being pragmatic. But I don't get the same feeling from Radiant. Why? Because Radiant came from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth and I feel like it can be really easy for her to get lost in that. In a comfort place where she doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that she killed her parents and her spren, her powers and what she is facilitated that. What would stop her for leaving Shallan behind and embrace this new composed persona ? I am not saying is happening, but that is very possible and easy to do. This is why I am worried for her. 

 

I agree Shallan is very different from Vin, my thoughts were that I don't want another expert fighter/warrior female character. At least not in Shallan. I agree she has to know how to defend herself and I hope it will end with some basic knowledge of that. 

Look I am not saying Shallan is crazy, I don't belive she is crazy or she has DSM, not yet at least. But she is traumatized. She's been a victim of abuse and now she is trying to cope with that as best as she is able to. I don't blame her and I am not saying it's not a natural reaction. But I don't think you can resume it to trying to invent a different character for a little boost of confidence. It's not a 'fake it till you make it" kind of situation. At least not in my mind. We're not talking about social anxiety or fear of public speaking. This is someone who doesn't want to come to terms with the fact she killed her parents and her mother tried to kill her.

As cliche as it sounds "The first step to solve a problem is to admit you have one". IMO she has to face her fears and come to terms with what she did and then I will say this habit of hers is harmless. 

The DSM is a book. DID is dissociative identity disorder. And yes. She's traumatized. Even showing many symptoms for PTSD.  I said as much earlier in the thread. But what I'm disputing is that her personas are part of that Trauma. If they are Brandon is failing badly to show a researched approached to the problem. One that would be as offensive to people living with DID as other the other split personality nonsense we see on screen and on the page. And given how well he's portrayed depression, ptsd, and high functioning autism I just don't see that being his style.

And to OP. If you want to look at a character's mental health you cannot ignore the tool most used by professionals to assess and diagnose mental illness. You use it to back up what you're talking about or you don't really have a case. Especially in relation to theories posited before ~99% of this forum's userbase was born. Work with the most recent tools in the field. They're what Brandon is using for his research if nothing else. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Aminar

[kari-no-sugata]

Brandon definitely puts in a lot of effort into these things. In general, he will research the topic, talk to experts and ask them to review and critique the relevant bits that he wrote. He's specifically said this for the first-aid and so on that Kaladin does. He also researched war veterans to convey soldiers properly. He heavily researched atheists for Jasnah. He researched various things for Renarin as well. This is all on the record. So I'm sure he investigated all sorts of things for Shallan.

Of course, there is the additional complication of magic as well, which is something we'll have to guess at. We see a specific example of this in that Shallan is no longer able to forget her memory of killing her mother. We also have the in-Cosmere example of Shai being able to do really interesting things to herself.

So it's going to be interesting to see where this all goes. I think it would be unusual for Brandon to put in all these development for Shallan's ability to take on different roles and personas... only for it to all be thrown away in the end. ie, it feels like the sort of thing that is going to develop into something larger, more advanced and more dangerous. Assuming that Shallan doesn't fail or die along the way of course. I've felt for a long time that the Lightweavers will be good on the mental side of things (both for themselves and with others) so I think this all fits together. I think the difficulty for the readers is that unlike with the other magic systems we've seen on Roshar it's hard to differentiate between what's suitable and appropriate and what is not, because it's all on the inside.

[Silarn]

Brightness Radiant is quite clearly a coping mechanism, and Shallan is definitely going in pretty deep on the character - something like method acting. To the point that she's only realizing in hindsight when she says things that have gone too far / are a little suspect. It seems that, as a possible aspect of her bond, her Truth is keeping her somewhat grounded to her 'real' personality. But she's making it quite clear that she can't 'be' Shallan while using Patternblade without being overwhelmed by her memories. She lets Shallan surface a little to adjust her reactions and so forth, but she's definitely becoming that other person to an extent.

In the back cover thread, we've got a pretty close read on what the back cover text is now and the part that references Shallan is (likely) this: "The Spy, broken by cruelty, seeks completion." As these back-cover excerpts reference what will happen in this book and not just previous events, I think this dichotomy, repression of the past, and inability simply be Shallan (particularly as it comes to being a Radiant) is definitely going to be a big aspect of this book.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Silarn

[aeromancer he/him]

@aemetha That's an awesome overview of the situation. I agree with everything you say. The only thing I add is that I didn't even think about any of this regarding Veil for the reasons you stated. However, now Shallan seems to be building a separate personality as an immediate response. As you say, there's nothing wrong with it now. But I smell foreshadowing, and where there's foreshadowing, there's theorycrafting to be had! But, anyway, thanks again for the overview.

Please stop bringing up the DSM-V. Please.

I see method acting cropping up as a defense for Shallan's behavior. Here's the thing. Method acting is unsafe. Dangerously unsafe. Studios have psychoanalyst on payroll to help the actors use method acting, and there's still numerous horror stories of method actors which do not need to be mentioned. Now this does not mean that the common everyman using psychology tricks like assuming a different role for public speaking, or the like is a bad thing. (I'd be a hypocrite, seeing as I'm using a different role [aeromancer] for my public speaking [the Shard]). But the level that Shallan is doing it is a completely different level than you or I do. I know that a certain Soul Forger can swap between personalities with no consequence, which makes it seem fine, but said Soul Forger doesn't have them all in her head at once. I'm not hoping that Shallan goes insane by any means. I don't particularly dislike her and an illusionists with more than one personality can be very bad.

[Aminar]

3 hours ago, aeromancer said:

@aemetha That's an awesome overview of the situation. I agree with everything you say. The only thing I add is that I didn't even think about any of this regarding Veil for the reasons you stated. However, now Shallan seems to be building a separate personality as an immediate response. As you say, there's nothing wrong with it now. But I smell foreshadowing, and where there's foreshadowing, there's theorycrafting to be had! But, anyway, thanks again for the overview.

Please stop bringing up the DSM-V. Please.

I see method acting cropping up as a defense for Shallan's behavior. Here's the thing. Method acting is unsafe. Dangerously unsafe. Studios have psychoanalyst on payroll to help the actors use method acting, and there's still numerous horror stories of method actors which do not need to be mentioned. Now this does not mean that the common everyman using psychology tricks like assuming a different role for public speaking, or the like is a bad thing. (I'd be a hypocrite, seeing as I'm using a different role [aeromancer] for my public speaking [the Shard]). But the level that Shallan is doing it is a completely different level than you or I do. I know that a certain Soul Forger can swap between personalities with no consequence, which makes it seem fine, but said Soul Forger doesn't have them all in her head at once. I'm not hoping that Shallan goes insane by any means. I don't particularly dislike her and an illusionists with more than one personality can be very bad.

It's not method acting. The actual term for what she's doing is role-playing. Method acting is done for film shoot length's of time. Days or Months spent as another person. And it isn't a coping mechanism. Playing a role for a time is. The discussion above on adaptive vs maladaptive behaviors covers it very well. But this is really reading too far into it. What she's doing isn't symptomatic. It isn't part of the issue, but a thought out result. Like you said, a coping skill. Coping skills are not a sign of mental illness. In a person living with mental illness they're a sign of improvement. Especially coping skills worked out alone and put into use. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Coping skills are not a sign of mental illness. In a person living with mental illness they're a sign of improvement. Especially coping skills worked out alone and put into use. 

Coping skills are band-aid solutions. A depressed man might run to drinking half a bottle of vodka every night, because it makes him feel better. Let's him cope with his depression. Would you say, that is a sign of improvement?

A sign of improvement would be to acknowledge the problem and try to fix it. Talk about it with persons you trust. Not ignoring it by changing your persona each time you do feel the problem coming up. And yes, Shallan is not just role-playing, she is fundamentally changing who she is during those times. Sure, her persona is inspired by her own self, but she was already slipping so far into the role (e.g. saying "Brightlord Kholin" instead of "Adolin"), that she even surprised herself in a short moment of clarity. I see it as dangerous.

[aemetha he/him]

@SLNC what you've said here stands in contrast to well established emperical observation of the nature of stress and coping. It is well documented that some sources of stress are too overwhelming to be confronted with approach coping mechanisms (which is what you're describing, so despite your insistence otherwise you're still describing coping as it relates to this discussion). PTSD is caused precisely because some trauma overwhelms the psychological resources of a person to confront it. Avoidance coping provides an adaptive response to situations where a person cannot employ approach techniques. It is only maladaptive if it causes more harm - which would be the case if a person became alcoholic as an avoidance coping technique, however presenting an example of a maladaptive avoidance technique neither makes all avoidance techniques maladaptive or all approach techniques adaptive.

The circumstance as written so far is not maladaptive, there is no observable harm to Shallan created and there is an observable reduction in harm suffered. It is not a band-aid, it is a rational response to her situation. Could it at some point become maladaptive? Absolutely, but the comparison to alcoholism as a treatment for depression is a false equivalency. As an aside, depression is also a stress related illness, so an insistence that an unpalatable approach technique is the only valid response to stress would in all likelihood contribute to a worsening of a persons depression, not an improvement. In such a case the person should be encouraged to seek more adaptive avoidance techniques (i.e. if they can't confront the problem they should find a way to avoid the problem that doesn't cause them more harm).

[Guest]

Look. I was using alcoholism as an example, because it is an addiction. And Shallan is very much prone to lying. So much it could prove to be addictive. That is why I'm worried about her. Role-playing, essentially, is living a lie for a time. I am worried about how much it could affect Shallan on an integral level of herself.

And as a person, that has dealt with stress and depression before: Avoidance doesn't fix it. You have to confront it. With help.

Edited September 28, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I see method acting cropping up as a defense for Shallan's behavior. Here's the thing. Method acting is unsafe. Dangerously unsafe. Studios have psychoanalyst on payroll to help the actors use method acting, and there's still numerous horror stories of method actors which do not need to be mentioned. Now this does not mean that the common everyman using psychology tricks like assuming a different role for public speaking, or the like is a bad thing. (I'd be a hypocrite, seeing as I'm using a different role [aeromancer] for my public speaking [the Shard]). But the level that Shallan is doing it is a completely different level than you or I do. I know that a certain Soul Forger can swap between personalities with no consequence, which makes it seem fine, but said Soul Forger doesn't have them all in her head at once. I'm not hoping that Shallan goes insane by any means. I don't particularly dislike her and an illusionists with more than one personality can be very bad.

The reason I brought up "method acting" is really that I'm looking for a better real world analogy - in my post above I said "I think that what Shallan is doing here is similar to method acting". This is to contrast it with the assertions that it is multiple personality disorder, a split personality or dissociative identity disorder. So my goal was not to use it as a defence directly but as a more accurate description which also allows for more accurate analysis - I'm aware that method acting has potential downsides.

 

4 hours ago, Aminar said:

It's not method acting. The actual term for what she's doing is role-playing. Method acting is done for film shoot length's of time. Days or Months spent as another person. And it isn't a coping mechanism. Playing a role for a time is. The discussion above on adaptive vs maladaptive behaviors covers it very well. But this is really reading too far into it. What she's doing isn't symptomatic. It isn't part of the issue, but a thought out result. Like you said, a coping skill. Coping skills are not a sign of mental illness. In a person living with mental illness they're a sign of improvement. Especially coping skills worked out alone and put into use. 

Hmm. An interesting suggestion. I feel that what Shallan was doing with Veil in WoR definitely feels like role-playing more than method acting. However, I think she's going more strongly into it now - ie rather than simply changing her appearance, her voice, her attitude, her way of moving/walking she's also changing her emotions/mental state. Temporarily of course.

Edited September 28, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[kari-no-sugata]

17 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

The last thing Shallan said to Pattern in WoR is "I hate you" and that she wants her family back. The first time we see her in OB, she is ignoring Pattern and finding excuses that the Blade and him are different. Each time he tries to open the subject of her mother's death she goes in denial, so much that she has to create another persona in order to stand using him as a sword. Sorry, but I don't see improvement, I see someone that is avoiding the truth. 

This is the way I see it: At the end of WoR she's angry with Pattern. In the first chapter in OB she's not angry (or only a little bit) but is mostly ignoring him. In the more recent chapters instead of ignoring him she willing invites him to take part in her dinner with Adolin. Still more to go but I see progress.

 

17 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

It's true, we don't know yet if she will create more versions of herself, but I think it's not that crazy to asume that this is a pattern she will follow (like the copycat murder. We don't have any assurance there will be another one, but everyone kind of expects it). When it comes to Veil I agree it was out of necessity and she was being pragmatic. But I don't get the same feeling from Radiant. Why? Because Radiant came from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth and I feel like it can be really easy for her to get lost in that. In a comfort place where she doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that she killed her parents and her spren, her powers and what she is facilitated that. What would stop her for leaving Shallan behind and embrace this new composed persona ? I am not saying is happening, but that is very possible and easy to do. This is why I am worried for her. 

I'd say the way you're characterising why Shallan created Radiant is misleading - she wasn't created "from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth", she was created to be a calm and pragmatic version of Shallan who could deal with the immediate situation. I think the chapter in question lays it out quite clearly that her only realistic alternatives were to physically run away or to have a complete mental breakdown.

But the chapter also explicitly lays out reasons why Shallan would not want to use Radiant that much - Radiant cannot draw (which is Shallan's passion) and while Shallan needs Radiant to wield Pattern as a weapon she would not want to be Radiant while with Adolin otherwise - she wants to be herself as much as possible with Adolin because otherwise that spoils the enjoyment. There's also no obvious need to use Radiant when she's simply by herself - she hasn't needed to thus far. So the main potential usages of Radiant I can see are: training with Adolin, when out in public as herself to keep up a good front, or in combat (if that ever occurs). Veil obviously has limited uses as well. Can you give a specific example of a realistic scenario that would force Shallan to create another persona that isn't covered by her existing ones?

[Aminar]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

Coping skills are band-aid solutions. A depressed man might run to drinking half a bottle of vodka every night, because it makes him feel better. Let's him cope with his depression. Would you say, that is a sign of improvement?

A sign of improvement would be to acknowledge the problem and try to fix it. Talk about it with persons you trust. Not ignoring it by changing your persona each time you do feel the problem coming up. And yes, Shallan is not just role-playing, she is fundamentally changing who she is during those times. Sure, her persona is inspired by her own self, but she was already slipping so far into the role (e.g. saying "Brightlord Kholin" instead of "Adolin"), that she even surprised herself in a short moment of clarity. I see it as dangerous.

Self medicating is not a coping skill. Therapists and counsellors teach coping skills all the time. Including distancing techniques. 

Truth be told, what Shallan does is exactly what a good roleplay is. It's stepping into another personality for a while. We have all sorts of methods to do that because it's beneficial for treatment. It's something you have to commit to, but it's beyond most people so not commonly taught. 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

It seems to me that this thread is based a bit too much on the DSM and not enough on story structure. I've been treated for anxiety for a number of years, so I understand why somebody would be invested in that lens in particular, but I think it's obscuring more than it's helping at this point.

The reason I don't think that Shallan is going to lose her personality is because it's antithetical to her character arc. Shallan's whole journey is becoming more and more honest with herself, which is why her abilities as a Lightweaver are tied to admitting difficult truths. It's the same reason why Kaladin's oaths all have to do with protecting people. Characters with the Nahel bond get magic powers because of character development, and so if they regress they get weaker and thus are unlikely to be that important. If she does in some meaningful way forget who she is, Brightness Radiant couldn't do much more than sit around drawing pictures of mollusks* and thus would generally suck as an epic fantasy character. It'd be like Taravangian keeling over tomorrow because of congestive heart failure. Theoretically possible, but dramatically not that compelling.

Meanwhile, Shallan's still keeping a lot of secrets, from others and herself. She's doing less of that in both cases than she was in Words of Radiance, but she's not at a 100% healthy place right now, I agree. But of course she is: her character arc needs somewhere to go from here. Kaladin goes through a lot of Words of Radiance with unresolved issues about lighteyes and revenge, to the point where he loses contact with Syl--all so that Kaladin's character can progress in a climactic moment at the end of the book. Shallan's set up for something similar. There's going to be some other unpleasant truth that she needs to admit to, but in the end she will because that's how the series works.

I don't know if, at the end of this, she'll still be a heroine. I've had her pegged for the "one of them may destroy us" role since early in tWoK, even if I've never had a solid theory how that would happen. But whatever road she chooses, she's going to go down it with her eyes wide open.

* I apologize: she wouldn't even be able to do that, because Brightness Radiant doesn't draw.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Harry the Heir
added footnote

[OathKeeper]

On 9/27/2017 at 1:25 AM, aemetha said:

A few points. The DSM-V can only be used to diagnose "anyone" with a mental disorder if one ignores the catch all intended to prevent "anyone" from being diagnosed. It is not enough to just exhibit the specific diagnostic criteria for a disorder, it must also constitute significant impairment or distress in order to be clinically significant. Also, it is considered an ethical breach to diagnose someone publicly and without a private consultation, and so the armchair psychologists and psychiatrists that have caused the development of this misinterpretation of the dsm should be acknowledged for exactly what they are - unethical hacks.

As is pointed out above, dissociative identity disorder is an unconscious protective response, which is quite different from what Shallan is doing, which would best be described as an avoidance stress coping technique. Generally speaking avoidance stress coping techniques are considered adaptive in the short term as they shield the person from sudden overwhelming trauma but may become maladaptive in the longer term if appropriate approach techniques for coping with the stressor are not employed.

...

It is also worth considering that several very prominent psychologists would tell you that Shallans traumatic past just isn't worthy of this degree of analysis. Why does it matter that she killed her parents, the issue is that she feels guilty when she holds her sword. Ellis and Beck would encourage her to explore the faulty assumption that is causing her to have this irrational (Ellis) or dysfunctional (Beck) response, and not give more attention to the history of it than is required to disabuse her of that assumption. Emperically the cognitive school of psychotherapy is as valid, if not more than the psychodynamic traditions.

 

Dissociative identity becomes a disorder when it becomes involuntary and interferes significantly in the person's life. Right now Shallan can control it, making it a coping method as stated above. However, I agree with others that it's dangerous because I feel pretty confident that her arc will be losing control of her personas. I think she will create several in rapid succession and fail to keep control of them (she created Radiant in a fit of desperation and without thought for the consequences). One may take over and "lock Shallan up", so to speak. I think pattern would cease to allow her to surgebind if true ego Shallan is no longer in control of them. I wonder if she'll create some personas that are truly dangerous to herself and others (think of the movie Split). 

Now I'm not a psychologist, but this much I know: insanity is a legal definition, not a psychological one. It means one cannot discern right from wrong and can therefore not be held legally accountable for their actions. When people on this thread say insane, I suspect they mostly mean psychotic. Psychosis is a severe break from external reality. I don't think Shallan is there, so long as she remembers that she created veil and Radiant. The second she forgets that and forgets/loses her ability to decide which persona is in control, I think we can call her psychotic.

[Aminar]

13 hours ago, OathKeeper said:

Dissociative identity becomes a disorder when it becomes involuntary and interferes significantly in the person's life. Right now Shallan can control it, making it a coping method as stated above. However, I agree with others that it's dangerous because I feel pretty confident that her arc will be losing control of her personas. I think she will create several in rapid succession and fail to keep control of them (she created Radiant in a fit of desperation and without thought for the consequences). One may take over and "lock Shallan up", so to speak. I think pattern would cease to allow her to surgebind if true ego Shallan is no longer in control of them. I wonder if she'll create some personas that are truly dangerous to herself and others (think of the movie Split). 

Now I'm not a psychologist, but this much I know: insanity is a legal definition, not a psychological one. It means one cannot discern right from wrong and can therefore not be held legally accountable for their actions. When people on this thread say insane, I suspect they mostly mean psychotic. Psychosis is a severe break from external reality. I don't think Shallan is there, so long as she remembers that she created veil and Radiant. The second she forgets that and forgets/loses her ability to decide which persona is in control, I think we can call her psychotic.

That would be a truly ludicrous and offensive character arc. It, along with Renarin going evil, would actually stop me from reading Sanderson. 

That's not how DID works. You don't create a character and then it "takes over" The effects of the disorder are 100% involuntary. And really nothing like what we're talking about. Pop culture multiple personalities are stupidly wrong, but then putting the onus for the disorder on the people suffering from it like that... 

Brandon is smarter than that. He does his research better than that. 

Her character arc might very well be learning not to use these characters, and to be comfortable in her own skin. That would be fine. But the way you're talking about it. No. 

[Elena she/her]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

That's not how DID works. You don't create a character and then it "takes over" The effects of the disorder are 100% involuntary. And really nothing like what we're talking about. Pop culture multiple personalities are stupidly wrong, but then putting the onus for the disorder on the people suffering from it like that... 

I completely agree with you that poorly done, ~dramatic depictions of people with mental disorders are harmful and offensive. I think Brandon takes more care than that.

One thing though: we don't know yet what Shallan has. Also, her situation ia different than it would be IRL, so i don't think we're going to see a perfect 1:1 depiction of an existing disorder. In real life, people don't have magic powers of illusion that help them construct different identities, further feeding the delusion. BS probably took that into account, but I bet he did extensive research and likely had a beta reader to consult.

Also - if one of Shallan's soon to be many personas 'took over', I don't think it would be something as tacky and Hollywood as Brightness Radiant becoming an independent personality and ~turning on Shallan, or whatever. Not only that would have awful implications, as you yourself said, but it's just very cheesy. I don't know what exactly @OathKeeper   meant, but I took that 'Take over and lock Shallan up' to mean that there is a reasonable possibility that she'll end up 'delegating' more and more unpleasant tasks/states of mind she doesn't want to deal with to one of the personas, leaving 'Shallan' nearly powerless and trapped by her own fears. I'm picturing this possibility as a sort of behavioural trap, with Shallan unable to break the reflex of slipping into another non-Shallan personality every time she's required to do something, so that the personas go from being a protection mechanism to being a prison. 

I personally believe the climax for her arc will include a crisis situation where Shallan will need to do something important without having the time/ the opportunity to call upon another persona (maybe because she's powerless, like Kaladin when he protected Elhokar), so I can see something like what I described above happening. Not a real 'takeover' of Shallan's mind, but a trap of her own making.