[OB] The champion of odium

[bo.montier]

1 minute ago, Sliverofnone said:

I get that its the most obvious, but it seems too close what happened in Mistborn Era 1.

I think that we will see something different for Eshonai. 

My biggest problem with Eshonai is that hate isn't part of her motivation prior to transforming, so I see what you're saying there. My second choice would be Szeth, but then you've got the Nightblood hating evil thing, he'd have to break again pretty hard, which seems to be totally within the realm of possibility to me.

I still lean towards Eshonai, at the end of the day.

[Dahak he/him]

On 28/09/2017 at 3:30 PM, bo.montier said:

My biggest problem with Eshonai is that hate isn't part of her motivation prior to transforming, so I see what you're saying there. My second choice would be Szeth, but then you've got the Nightblood hating evil thing, he'd have to break again pretty hard, which seems to be totally within the realm of possibility to me.

I still lean towards Eshonai, at the end of the day.

My current thought is that Odium's trying to recruit Zahel or possibly Szeth for the role. Nightbringer after all is the only known black shardblade.

[Stormcrown]

removed.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Stormcrown

[Hero-of-Pages he/him]

On 9/28/2017 at 5:42 AM, Stark said:

Also, it would be new.  Brandon has not written a true female villain yet.  I mean, we have Shan Elariel, who was minor at best.  Bands of Mourning spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Telsin is also there, but most of her is behind the scenes, so she is not really compelling other than being Wax's sister

 

Just wanted to point out that in Shadows of Self

Spoiler

Paalm is a female.

 

[Stark he/him]

@heroofpages Ooh, good point! I can't believe I forgot about her!

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:15 AM, bo.montier said:

So, to me, Eshonai makes the most sense. A voidbringer with plate and blade, one who has been utterly consumed by odium, despite the tiny inner voice protesting the change.

So is this Odium's champion business going to be resolved by the end of the third book? Or is she just going to remain a static character for the next seven-and-a-half books until her big moment?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I strongly doubt Eshonai as Odiums champion. It is predictable. A lot of people can see it coming. The champions identity is likely to be a plot-twist.

 

[Solant he/him]

1. I think the 9th sign thing is a red herring.

2. I think Venli is a more likely candidate than Eshonai. She was the one to seek stormform and even wanted to kill the listeners who refused it. 

We are still meeting new characters. There is always the chance we may not have seen Odiums champion on screen yet.

[Stark he/him]

13 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

So is this Odium's champion business going to be resolved by the end of the third book?

Likely by the end of the 5th book at the latest.  While SA is a ten book series, Brandon has made it pretty clear that it will be two arcs of 5 books.  If I remember correctly, there wil be a 5-15 year gap between books 5 and 6, in worlds, where as each arc happens essentially back to back.

 

So I think you can expect most of what we are seeing to wrap up by book five, with the longer lasting consequences of what happens here and now to be dealt with in the second arc, but also likely to have a different, or at least drastically changed core antagonist.  Second half could be more along the lines of: All the nations united to throw of the Desolation, we are recovering.  Now what?  We all have our own Radiants, and none of us want to bow to the Warlord Dalinar Blackthorn Kholin.  Civil war, politics and Radiant vs Radiant, plus certain autonomous external forces potentially exerting themselves.

 

But the core idea is that this champion business will likely come to a head soon, with the Champion likely named in this book, coming to power in the next, and coming to a "final" confrontation in book 5.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

So I think you can expect most of what we are seeing to wrap up by book five, with the longer lasting consequences of what happens here and now to be dealt with in the second arc, but also likely to have a different, or at least drastically changed core antagonist.  Second half could be more along the lines of: All the nations united to throw of the Desolation, we are recovering.  Now what?  We all have our own Radiants, and none of us want to bow to the Warlord Dalinar Blackthorn Kholin.  Civil war, politics and Radiant vs Radiant, plus certain autonomous external forces potentially exerting themselves.

I dunno. Seems anti-climactic to use up the Odium threat at the end of book 5 and then spend the next five books cleaning up the mess. To my mind if there's a big climactic confrontation (of any kind, with Odium or with a medium-term antagonist like Taravangian) in book 5 then the good guys are going to lose it and be forced to regroup for a time.

But in any case, my larger point is that it's hard for me to imagine that Eshonai's character remaining static for a number of books, which seems like bad plotting to me.

[What's a Seawolf?]

On 9/29/2017 at 11:06 AM, Dahak said:

My current thought is that Odium's trying to recruit Zahel or possibly Szeth for the role. Nightbringer after all is the only known black shardblade.

I like the Nightblood thought just because of the out-of-universe context surrounding it.

If I remember correctly, Warbreaker was written as an intro of sorts to Nightblood and Vasher, and that each were intended to be characters in Stormlight, not Warbreaker characters used for another purpose.

Nightbloood as an evil spren and evil shardblade, whose thoughts can be used to draw such a drastic comparison to good guy spren, (especially with Nightblood thinking he's doing such good,) is exactly what I would picture Odiums champion wielding.

[Stormcrown]

Do we assume that Odium is defeated by book 5? 

I have a tough time picturing a 5-15 year long war with as much power as Odium as displayed. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Stormcrown said:

Do we assume that Odium is defeated by book 5? 

I have a tough time picturing a 5-15 year long war with as much power as Odium as displayed. 

Odium survives into the back half.

Quote

Q: RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomically quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understood, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?
 
A: Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. (Not quite a RAFO.)

[Stormcrown]

@The One Who Connects - I'd say that's pretty much a RAFO/non answer.

A more accurate question would be whether or not Rayse survives into the second half. Rayse is the villain here, not so much Odium. Parallels to Mistborn are pretty clear here.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Stormcrown

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Stormcrown said:

@The One Who Connects - I'd say that's pretty much a RAFO/non answer.

A more accurate question would be whether or not Rayse survives into the second half.

I know. But we know that Odium doesn't get splintered, and we know Odium is still Odium, and not combined with Honor or Cultivation or what-have-you. That's still a big deal

Whatever happens with Rayse would be too rafo-inducing to get answered.

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, Stormcrown said:

Do we assume that Odium is defeated by book 5? 

I have a tough time picturing a 5-15 year long war with as much power as Odium as displayed. 

I was actually expecting the opposite by book 5 Odium would win (to an extent).

[Wreith he/him]

I read through this after just reading a thread on Shallan and I had this wild thought.

What if Helaran ends up being the champion. He wouldn't even necessarily have to be revived, just... reanimated?

It feels like his activities are going to be important to Shallan's arc at least and we know he's set up to be a major complication as far as Radiant unity is concerned, but what if it goes further than that.

Really I think his story is how the Skybreakers will become involved with the current radiants in a positive way, but I couldn't pass up mentioning this idea.

[scifan he/him]

On 9/27/2017 at 1:55 PM, Sirscott13 said:

At first glance this would be the thought but if we dig deaper into who the champion is, I keep coming back to Szeth. He has more blood on his hands than he ever wanted and hates everyone for it. He hates his people for falsely making him truthles, he hates the radiant for existing and making his existence as a truth less pointless and the deaths his fault, and he has a very deep hatred of himself. He is technically classified as skybreaker right now, but more likely he is being chosen and manipulated by odium. 

I could understand Szeth as odium's champion...

Spoiler

I also interpret the voices Szeth thinks/comments about hearing all of the time - I'm thinking of the interlude when he's gone to kill Taravangian - strikes me as something similar to the influence when Vin hears voices when wearing the iron spike ear piece in the Mistborn series...

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

15 hours ago, scifan said:

I could understand Szeth as odium's champion... (Mistborn Spoilers)

  Hide contents

I also interpret the voices Szeth thinks/comments about hearing all of the time - I'm thinking of the interlude when he's gone to kill Taravangian - strikes me as something similar to the influence when Vin hears voices when wearing the iron spike ear piece in the Mistborn series...

You get points for making a connection, but Brandon has said.. interesting things about the subject that make me believe it's not what you think it is.

Quote

Blightsong

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

Blightsong

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea, mhmm, yea.

[scifan he/him]

Seemed similar... and I've learned that similar things generally have meaning when it comes to Brandon's work...  But I may have been reaching on that... *sigh*

[Stark he/him]

The way I see it, there are five options for how it plays out.

1)Odium win, doesn't matter hows - Bad option, but not the worst.

2)Odium is forced into a champion battle, his champion loses.  He retreats for a time, and is pissed.  Comes back after humanity has had time to forget and tries again. Most positive option.

3)Rayse himself is drawn out and killed.  Cultivation splinters the shard, covering Roshar in splinters of hate. Hoid's "I would see this planet burn" scenario

4)Rayse is drawn out and killed.  Someone else takes up the shard.  New devil.  Could be worse, could be better, but eventually the intent of odium will rule out.  But whether that means actively trying to kill everything or not could depend on the bearer.  Potentially best option.

5)Rayse dies, Cultivation absorbs the shard to create a new dual shard to try to contain it and prevent it from returning. Either succeeds, or becomes cultivated hatred (Dark Galadrial) and spreads hate across the Cosmere.  Best or far worst option depending on her control.  Sanderson seemed to imply in the December 2016 seattle thingr that this was not likely.  He seemed puzzled by the question and his response implied that this wasa terrible plan that would not happen.

[IllNsickly he/him]

On 9/28/2017 at 8:33 AM, Sayis said:

 

I want it to be a herald. Taln to be specific. The whole 9 shadow thing fits and we dont really know what happens in damnation.

I reckon there was more to the oathpact than the heralds knew.

 

OOOHHH!! The 9 Shadows could fit with either Taln or ?Jezrien. Taln being the only Herald who was sent back, the others would be the Shadows.

?Jezrien, or whichever of the Heralds who ultimately made the decision to walk away from the Oathpact, the other nine being his Shadows. 

Taln fits that better though.

[Dreamstorm]

@Stark so the way you see it, there is no possibility of a happy ending for Roshar at the end of the full series?? Even #2 seems like an ending which would just put the planet back to where it was pre-book 1. (Odium fairly contained and biding his time.) I might like my HEA too much 

[Stark he/him]

@Dreamstorm - These are more my predictions for the end of book 5.  Ending two is what honor and the Stormfather were pushing Dalinar towards.  As it currently stands, with how complacent the world has become since the 'last' desolation, and how much the rest of the countries doubt the trustworthiness of the Blackthorn...  They have a bigger uphill battle that Kelsier's crew did.  At least the skaa knew that they were in danger, knew they had a common enemy they could accept or struggle against.

 

Roshar is so full of different secret societies with different agendas, numerous countries in place of an empire, communication breakdowns, lack of trust, and centuries of cultural divide to contend with.  Unifying them to face a common enemy, especially a common enemy who is appearing to negotiate rationally with some leaders, while the guy who says their are evil has a reputation for being a berserker warlord from a family with a penchant for world dominance and heretic thought?  The struggle they face here is orders of magnitude more difficult that toppling a single authority figure in an empire.  And on top of that, the only monarch who appears to be siding with the protagonists is Mr T., who we all know is not necessarily a good ally to have for many reasobs.

 

So yeah, I am not seeing many options for a positive outcome by book five, where the best case scenario is still pretty awful.  Heck, previous desolations had a 90% mortality rate, and sent civilization back to the stone ages.  And those were victories. So yeah...  Is a happy ending possible by book ten? Probably.  But I don't see it yet.  But I'm also not really looking past book five.

 

But, you are not wrong for calling me out as a pessimist.  Struggle and adversity make opportunities for better stories to emerge, and that does require things to get worse before they get better.  So I am expecting things to get worse.

[Dreamstorm]

@Stark I can get behind this.  End of book 5 Odium is stopped for a time being and contained; humanity, now realizing the threat and more united, rallies in the interim; end of book 10 Odium is "destroyed" or "permanently neutralized" (but how that is possible without having other horrible consequences or the same solution as Mistborn Era 1, a possibility seemingly rejected by Sanderson and also redundant, who knows.)  Part of the reason I read fantasy is because despite how things get very, very, very bad, you usually get a payoff in the end where the bad guy is defeated.  And that payoff, if well done, provides all the feels which makes all the pain worthwhile.  I'll be disappointed at the end of this (20 years from now, lol), our ultimate bad guy is still around