[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Daishi5]

6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I am not all that great when it comes to the workings of investiture, so I am unable to debate the first part of your post more than I already have. 

When it comes to Dalinars character problems, his curse and boon has been a source of much discussion, his wifes identity has been kept secret for two books, and we can clearly see that his visit to the Nightwatcher haunts him. I would say it is a pretty big issue.

In addition Brandon has been giving us lots of PoVs for Dalinar yet he never even thinks about what his boon and curse are.  It's a pretty transparent trick, so he pretty much needs a big payoff to justify it.

[hypatia she/her]

Perhaps remembering Evi now is similiar to Vin.

In this chapter he cuts the last string to a Odiumspren and doesn't use the Thrill in his duel.

And a question - is it something in the language with fab-rial and pain-rial in a scene with a former bridgeman named Rial?

[Sliverofnone]

I am really excited with Shallan's chapter. I hope this goes very dark, and Shallan goes full on La Femme Nikita, complete with substance abuse problems. I find it interesting that she did not heal the wound on her hand and just ignored it. How long until Veil actually kills someone? Would that violate her oaths/truths? I think it is definitely going to lead down a very dark path before it gets lighter and I can't wait to read it!

 

[Salkara]

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Beyond Kaladin, Navani, and the Stormfather himself, nobody even knew that Dalinar had this. If he masked his movements, there was virtually no chance of the Blade being discovered in this vacant portion of the tower.

Do the Shin Stone Shamans know he has it? I bet they do. I'll bet when he needs it, it will be gone, taken by a Shin carrying Battar's Honorblade (so s/he can teleport to Urithuru and be disguised as a non-Shin).

Quote

“Rial,” the man said. “Bridge Thirteen.”

AKA Odium's Champion AKA Vivenna. I'm watching you "Rial."

Quote

Dalinar grunted. “Rira was never strong enough to try to claim [Adolin's] Plate back. But if it will bring Iri to our side, then I’d consider it."

I don't think this will happen. Dalinar is (or will be) highking of Urithiru. Adolin is the highprince of Kholinar, subject to the king of Alethkar. Asking a foreign highprince give up his Shardplate seems like a bad political move. I don't see it happening.

Quote

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal.

Whoa, okay.

1. "Forces that could hurt him." I assume this means other Shards? Cultivation?
2. "as he has been hurt before." Have we had previous confirmation that Odium was injured in previous battles?

[flying_shadow she/her]

1 minute ago, Salkara said:

I assume this means other Shards? Cultivation?

Harmony, maybe? It has been mentioned in a WOB that Odium fears Harmony.

[Garglemesh he/him]

41 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Possible thought: The Nightwatcher is Cultivation's Investiture. The Stormfather, and Dalinar's Radiant-ness, seem to lean more towards Honor's Investiture. So, Dalinar's boon/curse C-Investiture could be forced out by his Radiant bond's H-Investiture. Lift has C-Investiture as her bond and for her boon/curse so there is no conflict.

We are told that investiture resists other investiture, eh?

Except that, Edgedancer spoilers, 

Spoiler

Lift IS changing. She mentions that her boon was supposed to be that she didn't change but that she was changing physically all the same. We all assumed the boon was twisted to be just her mental maturity that didn't change, but what if it's her bonding Wyndle that broke her boon? What if she really had stopped aging previously, and Edgedancer foreshadowed Evi's return to Dalinar's memory?

Just sayin'

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 minute ago, Garglemesh said:

Except that, Edgedancer spoilers, 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lift IS changing. She mentions that her boon was supposed to be that she didn't change but that she was changing physically all the same. We all assumed the boon was twisted to be just her mental maturity that didn't change, but what if it's her bonding Wyndle that broke her boon? What if she really had stopped aging previously, and Edgedancer foreshadowed Evi's return to Dalinar's memory?

Just sayin'

There is a WoB that addresses this. Essentially, what Lift asked for and what she received are very different things. The fact that she ages/changes is not because of Wyndle.

[Frostlander]

4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

"as he has been hurt before." Have we had previous confirmation that Odium was injured in previous battles?

I don't remember confirmation, but he didn't finish off Ambition right away, so it's possible that she/he got some punches in. Not sure about Dominion and Devotion.

I'm thinking of this WoB

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2016

Herald Washington Library Center-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Did Ambition fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

And...Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got [Splintered] Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon: Heheheheh. I would say yes.

QUESTION

And Cultivation, is she--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She is still there. Alive and kicking.

QUESTION

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, maybe. She has learned from the experiences of others.

 

 

[flying_shadow she/her]

Loved the way the Stormfather isn't telling Dalinar about Shardplate. He's the Shard of RAFO. 

[Salkara]

Just now, Kalinovsky said:

Harmony, maybe? It has been mentioned in a WOB that Odium fears Harmony.

I think Harmony is too new to the game. Per WoB, it's difficult for a Shard to leave a planet once they've Invested in it. Not that it can't be done, just that it's difficult. Since Harmony is Invested in Scadrial during MB Era 2 which is happening roughly concurrent to SA, I think it's safe to say we won't see Harmony during SA.

Although, I guess it's possible that the death of a Shard's Vessel is momentous enough that other Shards will feel it (e.g. along the lines of "I felt a great disturbance in the The Force."), and Odium doesn't want Harmony to know what he's doing. Still, if that's the case, I think it'll come to light in a different series.

[Ansalem]

2 minutes ago, Kalinovsky said:

Harmony, maybe? It has been mentioned in a WOB that Odium fears Harmony.

As far as we know, that's only because Harmony is the most powerful (known) being in the Cosmere and Odium's goal is to be the most powerful being. Harmony is the only double Shard we know of (I think). He fears Harmony because he knows he'll have to go against him at some point to achieve his goal. If it weren't for that there would be nothing to fear since Harmony's nature makes it very difficult for him to act, unless Odium doesn't understand the nature of Harmony I suppose.

[StormingTexan he/him]

11 minutes ago, Sliverofnone said:

I am really excited with Shallan's chapter. I hope this goes very dark, and Shallan goes full on La Femme Nikita, complete with substance abuse problems. I find it interesting that she did not heal the wound on her hand and just ignored it. How long until Veil actually kills someone? Would that violate her oaths/truths? I think it is definitely going to lead down a very dark path before it gets lighter and I can't wait to read it!

 

I'm feeling the same way. I see her heading down a pretty dark path and I kinda like it. This also struck me as interesting,

“Veil is just a face.”

No. Veil was a woman who didn’t giggle when she got drunk, or whine, fanning her mouth when the drink was too hard for her. She never acted like a silly teenager. Veil hadn’t been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family.

Since last chapters we see her using the illusions as a coping mechanism but this seems more extreme almost split personality. 

[lol_king he/him]

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the queen doesn’t have any actual relation to Evi or her brother.

When i read this first my only takeaway was that Adolin has an uncle we don't know about. It wasn't until Navani mentioned Dalinar not remembering his wife's name that i remembered i haven't actually read the name Evi before. Apparently I'm not good at noticing things... 

[Sliverofnone]

20 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Since last chapters we see her using the illusions as a coping mechanism but this seems more extreme almost split personality. 

Yeah, I agree, this is definitely different. At first I saw similarities to Wayne, but this seems more extreme. She is going to lose herself in these illusions. Veil is already starting to go full on Ghostblood and its only Shallan's 3rd(4th?) chapter. Here we go!

[Mulk he/him]

Had a thought about Odium.  Granted that Rayse is not a good guy, and therefore is interpreting his shard in the most dangerous possible way.  I still think, however, that whoever holds Odium would eventually take up the same quest Rayse has.  Maybe not for the exact same purpose (supposedly to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere though I've not seen that in print), but the same ultimate goal all the same of destroying all other shards.  Think about it for a moment, if Odium represents the divine hatred of God bereft of all context or virtue, what could be (from the perspective of the original power/holder of all the power) hated more than those who destroyed Adonalsium, however well intentioned?  A different holder might seek to kill all the rest for the purpose of punishment or for reassembly, but destroy he/she would all the same.

I wonder a lot whether this is Hoid's eventual goal, the reassembly of Adonalsium.  The way he seeks investiture wherever he goes...I don't know.  Either that, or he's going to have a go at Odium and Autonomy until they are both dead/Splintered before he gives over. 

[Calderis he/him]

52 minutes ago, Sliverofnone said:

How long until Veil actually kills someone? Would that violate her oaths/truths? I think it is definitely going to lead down a very dark path before it gets lighter and I can't wait to read it!

Her "truths" have nothing to do with killing or protecting. How would that break her oaths? 

[Bernem he/him]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My other issue with the "it has to do with Stormlight/Bondsmith/general Radiancy" idea is that it seems to easy. One of Dalinars major problems, solved just like that? With no effort on Dalinars part, no repercussions, nothing. I don'by it, for story reasons

I don't think Dalinar being able to heal his memory of Evi would be boring or the "easy way out". It could bring some conflict and growth to Dalinar. If forgetting her was actually his Boon, he could realize why he had asked for the memories to be removed, and then have to avoid healing any more memory. Then even his Boon would become a curse.

Or maybe he killed her under the Thrill and finally has to come to terms with his past actions instead of hiding from them. It would be interesting parallel to have Dalinar going through something similar to Shallan at the same time.

[Stark he/him]

18 hours ago, Sliverofnone said:

Would that violate her oaths/truths?

 

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

Her "truths" have nothing to do with killing or protecting.

Pretty sure the first second on screen Truth from her that we see is "I am a murderer."  So killing dudes would confirm that her oath is true, while deeply unsettling Pattern as to what she would do with the corpse.  Use it as a chair, or food, or a sword, or something.

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“I have come to understand,” Pattern said, growing excited. “Humans… humans don’t care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skins of corpses. Corpses are things to you.”

Thanks to @Dreamstorm for the correction.  "I am a murderer" is the second truth she spoke to Pattern, to reveal herself to Jasnah.  I had completely missed that she spoke two truths in Way of Kings.  I think I overlooked the first one because it was so seemingly minor.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Stark

[Sliverofnone]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Her "truths" have nothing to do with killing or protecting. How would that break her oaths? 

It wouldn't break her truths, but she spoke the first oath, 'life before death.' I was just speculating on the possibility of her committing murder as Veil. So there is a WoB that Adolin killing Sadeas would not be excluding him from the KR, but do we know what Pattern would be ok with?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

8 minutes ago, Bernem said:

I don't think Dalinar being able to heal his memory of Evi would be boring or the "easy way out". It could bring some conflict and growth to Dalinar. If forgetting her was actually his Boon, he could realize why he had asked for the memories to be removed, and then have to avoid healing any more memory. Then even his Boon would become a curse.

Or maybe he killed her under the Thrill and finally has to come to terms with his past actions instead of hiding from them. It would be interesting parallel to have Dalinar going through something similar to Shallan at the same time.

This is a good point. If it turns out this way, I would be happy with it.

[Harbour he/him]

some random thoughts.

what if Kadash is Evi's brother?

what if Shallan was a copycat murder?

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

*Begins murderous plotting against fellow toasters*

You need help man.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Sliverofnone said:

It wouldn't break her truths, but she spoke the first oath, 'life before death.' I was just speculating on the possibility of her committing murder as Veil. So there is a WoB that Adolin killing Sadeas would not be excluding him from the KR, but do we know what Pattern would be ok with?

The first oath only means that if the Radiant believes it. We have plenty of evidence contrary to that. 

Considering, as has already been shown, she's killed before, I don't think it will matter. 

[Sliverofnone]

4 minutes ago, Stark said:

Pretty sure the first on screen Truth from her that we see is "I am a murderer."  So killing dudes would confirm that her oath is true, while deeply unsettling Pattern as to what she would do with the corpse.  Use it as a chair, or food, or a sword, or something.

True, that is her first spoken truth, but is she really a murderer? She killed her mom and Tyn in self defense. Her father's death is a little muddy. She was protecting Balat, and her family at the time, but also avenging Malise's murder, but would you call her a murderer? I'm not sure that I would, its a grey area, and I think that's what makes this path so interesting.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Just now, ElephantEarwax said:

You need help man.

I know. I think I'll take a page from Shallans book and pretend to be someone else. A vacuum cleaner will do fine.