[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[maxal she/her]

Some more commentaries...

11 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

*I seem to be the only one on the 17th Shard who finds Kaladins story arc the least interesting. Not that it is bad or anything, but I just find that all the interesting things, with Evi, Ghostbloods, murders and other nations happens at other places. That said, the moral dilemma in Kaladins situation is interesting.

*I feel like Shallan and Adolin fit each other.

*I am not overly fond of Sebarial. He feels like the Gallywix of Stormlight, if anyone knows World of Warcraft lore. 

*Mraize. One of my favorite Brandon characters, whose appearance I have waited for for quite some time. Nice to finally see the guy. Having him with Ialai strengthens my old theory about Sadeas and secret societies (its in my signature, if anyone is interested). 

No you are not. I too find Kaladin's story arc to be the least interesting. I agree it isn't bad or anything, it just fails to grab my interest, not when so many more interesting things are happening within the other viewpoints.

I love Adolin and Shallan.

I have been suspicious of Sebrarial for a while... He is an opportunist. He will never side with a side unless he is sure it will win. I do not trust him.

I can't say Mraize is one of my favorites, but his appearance next to Ialai increased the tension by the tenfold. I am not complaining this week.

9 hours ago, Erunion said:

Shallan: Not much to say here. Shadolin continue to be absolutely charming together. Pattern is funny. Shallan is leading a somewhat destructive lifestyle. Adolin wants to confess, and things with Ialai are about to get interesting.  @maxal I think your fears are going to prove unfounded. The Murder plot progresses! (Finally!) 

I definitely agree. The excitement is back, especially with Adolin confessing (or seriously hinting towards) on his difficulties with respect to his relationship with his father. I feel we are tip-toeing around everything and I cannot wait to see how it will unravel.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Alright, this week I figured I'd try going through my reactions without reading the other posts first, just to see how I like it.

Chapter 19:

I got a kick out of Dalinar's cocky carefree attitude. He just casually strides out into a highstorm because he thinks his knife is in the bunker, cuts open the latch on the door with a Shardblade, and  looks at the terrified soldiers in the room like "what are you guys all worried about?"

And then how he casually dispatches the assassin and doesn't seem concerned at all about the attempt.

I wonder if his little steak knife bent because he was already starting to use Tension...

Also, this line caught my interest:

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An explosive burst of wind drove him against the wall, and he stumbled, then stepped backward, driven by instincts he couldn’t define. A large boulder slammed into the wall, then bounced away. Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs.

 

What is that creature?

And also this:

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“You really need to pay better attention,” Gavilar said. “We aren’t living in huts anymore.”

They’d never lived in huts. They were Kholin, heirs to one of the world’s great cities—even if Dalinar had never seen the place before his twelfth year. He didn’t like that Gavilar was buying into the story the rest of the kingdom told, the one that claimed their branch of the house had until recently been ruffians from the backwaters of their own princedom.

1

Is Dalinar the one that doesn't remember his true upbringing here?

Chapter 20:

Hmm, short chapter that mostly dealt with the White Knight concern people were bringing up a few weeks ago.

Chapter 21:

Uh, did Shallan drink that whole jug of Horneater stuff?

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Her actions felt like they’d taken place in a dream.

Ok, this combined with everything else is a bit worrying.

"No Mating"

Oh, no more infused gems left...

Shallan can repress her stormlight glow. Cool.

And they're going to see Ialai? This will be fun...

Gotta love Sebarial.

Adolin's guilty conscience is showing.

And what the heck is Mraize doing with Ialai?

[Alderant she/her]

3 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

Kaladin cares for, empathizes, and relates to these parshendi. Lets say that next  these parshendi arrive at Kholinar and Alethi lighteyes kill them. Yet again Kaladin finds people he cares for being killed by Lighteyes. Insert Odium's influence on the parshendi while kaladin has aligned himself with this group.

You ignore the fact that Kaladin is working with said light-eyes. And I respectfully disagree. Yes, he is starting to empathize with the parshmen, yes he is starting to care for them, but he also has his bridgemen on the oher side whom he has effectively sworn to protect as well. And he’s sworn to protect and defend Dalinar. Also setting his hatred of Amaram (which he is getting over) and his disdain for light-eyes (which I wouldnt call hate, and he is also getting over), Kaladin is not a hateful person by nature. He is caring and empathetic, and by its very nature you cannot be empathetic and hateful of that which you empathize. And we saw at the end of WoR and beginning of Oathbringer that Kal is starting to empathize with more than just his own people. Im sorry, but I just cant see him becoming Odiums champion. Its too convoluted. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

I wonder how much (if at all) the Stormlight shortage has affected Zahel, and how exactly he dealt with it.

Wow that’s a great question! Hopefully he had some spheres stashed away and luckily from what we learned today they seem to stay infused longer in Urithiru. 

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

Has an idea similar to Highprincess Ialai Sadeas been brought up. I'm not the best at customs, but the way this is going I feel like it could happen.

[Andy92]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Not a storyteller you say? 

Is Oathbringer written by Sigzil? 

My first thought was that we could at least rule out Wit lol 

[Erunion he/him]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Wow that’s a great question! Hopefully he had some spheres stashed away and luckily from what we learned today they seem to stay infused longer in Urithiru. 

Or a few Breaths stored as a reserve? 

[Todesengel he/him]

10 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

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“Do you really think I’m like my father?” Adolin said softly as they walked. There was a worried sense to his voice.

“You are,” she said, pulling his arm tight. “You’re just like him, Adolin. Moral, just, and capable.”

He frowned.

“What?”

“Nothing.”

“You’re a terrible liar. You’re worried you can’t live up to his expectations, aren’t you?”

“Maybe.”

So Shallan only knows the recent Dalinar.  Obviously Adolin doesn't quite agree with Shallan's assessment of his father. Dalinar may be capable but the young Dalinar was not moral.  What does Adolin remember about his father's past and his mother?

I figured that he was frowning because Shallan considers Adolin to be "moral, just, and capable." He doesn't consider himself to be those qualities, or at least not moral, due to the fact that he just murdered Sadeas.

[JoyBlu she/her]

15 hours ago, Tarion said:

I wonder whether suppressing the Stormlight is a Stormlight technique, or if it's an application of Lightweaving. I could see arguments either way (If it's Stormlight, I wouldn't be surprised to see it as a step towards one of the Plate theories - Controlling and condensing Stormlight seems like step 1 towards creating physical objects with it). 

I had always assumed that it was a technique. In Szeth’s prologue it talks about him holding it in. I’m assuming here that Shallan held the storm light in and pushed it to where it healed her. But she wasn’t leaking it like Szeth. Yes very interesting.  Here is the quote from the WoK prologue 

 

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Szeth breathed in deeply, drawing forth the Stormlight. It streamed into him, siphoned from the twin sapphire lamps on the walls, sucked in as if by his deep inhalation. The Stormlight raged inside of him, and the hallway suddenly grew darker, falling into shade like a hilltop cut off from the sun by a transient cloud. Szeth could feel the Light’s warmth, its fury, like a tempest that had been injected directly into his veins. The power of it was invigorating but dangerous. It pushed him to act. To move. To strike. Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did. Afire with holy energy, Szeth turned to the guards. They could see that he was leaking Stormlight, wisps of it curling from his skin like luminescent smoke. The lead guard squinted, frowning. Szeth was sure the man had never seen anything like it before. As far as he knew, Szeth had killed every stone walker who had ever seen what he could do.

15 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Quick observation:

Allusion to spicy food may be a hint that the author of OB is male?

Ialai Sadeus likes spicy foods.  just sayin’

 

[Pattern he/him]

3 hours ago, Shardbearer said:

And what the heck is Mraize doing with Ialai?

I start speculating now...
The Ghostbloods helped House Davar in their try to obtain a Highprincedom. Had they been successful, the Ghostbloods would have had leverage on a Highprince and therefore a good position to influence Rosharan politics.
Ialai is a new widow. We don't know how an heir of a Highprincedom is determined when there are no direct descendants. It could be that Ialai alone would be only a placeholder and she is in dire need of a husband (as it was historically in Europe for all monarchies following Salian law).
Next week: Wedding ceremonies for Ialai-Mraize, Mraize becomes Highprince and the Ghostbloods have their position to influence Rosharan politics (so they can get stuff, Dalinar 31 years ago was at least quite sharp on this).

3 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

from what we learned today they seem to stay infused longer in Urithiru.

I think we read a bit too much into the rare infused spheres. Stormlight is running out, but we know that big gemstones hold stormlight much longer than money-spheres. There is a whole branch of commerce where moneychangers infuse dull spheres for a small fee. So there has to be a way to infuse spheres other than hanging them out in a Highstorm. I am thinking of some kind of fabrial that has Stormlight stored in a big gemstone which is able to infuse spheres again.
Of course this hypothetic fabrial is also going to run out of Stormlight when the Stormlight use in Urithiru stays as high as it has been the last few weeks. The next Highstorm is coming soon though (as long as timelines are still parallel).

Sebarial's plan to tax the use of the Oathgates is also an important one. Until now, Stormlight has been used in great amounts to get people to Urithiru, dull spheres have been exchanged in a disadvantegeous ratio with full spheres, so Dalinar practically helped all people willing to come to Urithiru at his own cost. To make Urithiru economically stable, there has to be an influx of spheres for the service of instant travel. And merchants still will be able to profit from it, just think of the greatly reduced travel times in trade, as soon as more Oathgates are opened.

[+Extesian he/him]

8 hours ago, Extesian said:

Well, a Dalinar flashback I'd read (but what a truly beautiful one), a very strange Kal chapter, and a Shallan chapter that was...interesting? At times? I have less thoughts on these ones than normal, but as per operating procedure I'll transmit them directly to YOU, using my thumb, so I have a record at the end of this for prosperity. Posterity. Presuppository.  One of them. 

In a break from tradition though, I'll post the Dalinar chapter thoughts first as I'm about to work and, well, what a tasty chapter it is? Salry, umami and just a little sweet.

I...see. why? I'm assuming the blades because Alethela was where the fighting radiants were and therefore probably where they surrendered the blades. But fabrials? HMMMM. Maybe the vorin church recovered them from other nations during the heirocracy? But they didn't conquer the west. Hmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Before i continue, Dalinar. Daddy K. Yeah he's pretty objectionable and morally bankrupt in his younger, headier days. But corrupt my breath, he's absolutely magnificent. The sharp-brained amongst you may have picked up that I'm fond of characters with no fear and utter confidence in their invincibility. 

The guy walked out into a highstorm to find a knife. Bring that man to me on a plate with garlic butter and a pinch of thyme.

Oh, anyway, he saw the same thing Kal saw. The striders in the storm. Cognitive Realm obviously. Some have said the unmade. Tbh I'm not sure. The quack in me wants to say its a glimpse of braize. But i don't believe that. I expect its just some spren related to the Highstorms that manifests way bigger in the CR.

And maybe some lemon aioli with a side of honey-braized turnips

I feel like we've danced this dance, but yes Sunmaker's empire lasted 1 generation and yes there was a Shin conqueror. That continues to excite me. With the honorblades? Were they left in Shinovar? Do they have them because of the conquering? And if you haven't search the other books for that name, you may find a salty surprise. 

And pair him with a young shiraz please, something a little peppery, not too earthy, heavy on the tannins.

This was very interesting to be indeed. G was all about the Codes 25 years before his assassination! D only needed 6 to bond The Hurricane. But G really was on the path for a long long time. Did the Codes lead to the bond or did a proto bond start a long long time ago? 

And I'll need a takeaway container please. I'll need this dish to go.

And now to finish. I'll...try to veer away from my Dalinar degustation talk. Mmmm. Degustalinar.

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“I hate,” Sah continued, “feeling like a child.” He started rewrapping the axehead, tighter this time. “I hate being taught things that I should already know. Most of all, I hate needing your help. We ran. We escaped. Now what? You leap in, start telling us what to do? We’re back to following Alethi orders again.”

Kaladin stayed silent.

“That yellow spren isn’t any better,” Sah muttered. “Hurry up. Keep moving. She tells us we’re free, then with the very next breath berates us for not obeying quickly enough.”

They were surprised that Kaladin couldn’t see the spren. They’d also mentioned to him the sounds they heard, distant rhythms, almost music

Those poor, poor parshmen...

Interesting that the voidspren does not have any sort of control but must merely persuade. But even more interesting is that the former parshmen can't yet properly hear the rhythms. Shoring up their spirit webs didn't give it immediately. Or one must learn to hear them.

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I think I can sense a highstorm coming,” she whispered.

“What? Really?”8

She nodded. “It’s distant still. A day or three.” She cocked her head.

“I suppose I could have done this earlier, but I didn’t need to. Or know I wanted to. You always had the lists.”

Huh. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise, she's presumably strongly connected to the Stormfather. Cool. In some ways its more surprising that she has to consciously do so. Could prove to be an useful timer for times where Stormlight is running out. But more interesting to me is a possible connection to the prohibition of foretelling. Could it be that spren are better able to do this and it became synonymous with Radiants? 

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What had gotten into her? Tossing around the symbol of the Ghostbloods? Drinking herself silly? Stabbing a man in front of a gang of armed thugs?

Her actions felt like they’d taken place in a dream.

Metaphorically, psychologically or realmatically? 

Oh and keep thinking about that stuff girl. It reminds me of when, very briefly, I fell a little in love with you. 

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Adolin, dear,” she said, finally pulling the blanket back down to her shoulders, “I could literally survive being stabbed with a sword through the chest. I think I’ll be fine with some ruffians in the market.”

“Oh. Right. It’s kind of easy to forget.” He frowned. “So… wait. You could survive all kinds of nasty murder, but you still…”

“Get menstrual cramps?” Shallan said. “Yeah. Mother Cultivation can be hateful. I’m an all-powerful, Shardblade-wielding pseudo-immortal, but nature still sends a friendly reminder every now and then to tell me I should be getting around to having children.”

“No mating,” Pattern buzzed softly on the wall.

Interesting she knows she's invincible. Did pattern tell her? Can she feel it? Has...she tried?

Oh and CULTIVATION! My lady! Again, how does she know the name? Pattern or just knowing? Or connecting the name with the power she has access to? More Cultivation now for me more. 

X m8ing. Ah pattern. Maybe with some spiced chutney and roa... nevermind. 

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At the very least, he rolled his eyes and handed over a single ruby mark.

She sucked in the Light hungrily. She held her breath so it wouldn’t puff out when she breathed, and… suppressed the Light. She could do that, she’d found. To prevent herself from glowing or drawing attention. She’d done that as a child, hadn’t she?

Her hand slowly reknit, and she let out a relieved sigh as the headache vanished as well.

Such delicious lies. Interesting to think of holding the Stormlight in as suppressing it. Clearly very interesting that she was actively investing and conscious of how to manage it even back then. And I remain very interested in healing and the way Stormlight triages injuries. I felt like minor ones go first, because of Kal. This makes it sound a little more concurrent?

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She did the math, and found herself stunned. It had been weeks since the unexpected highstorm where she’d first worked the Oathgate. She looked at the sphere between Adolin’s fingers.

Those should all have gone dun by now, she thought. Even the ones renewed most recently. How did they have any Stormlight at all?

Hmm I'd be curious to know from the stormwardens (I'm looking your way jof) whether this timeframe means the unexpected highstorm was just a normal one brought early, and this schedule fits, or whether its thrown off the pattern. And yeah, how did rust sphere still have light? Maybe they just have huge gemhearts that retain the light and they, like use one to infuse spheres? I feel it doesn't work like that. Maybe adolin has a gem that's been more perfectly cut. 

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Not strange like you,” he said. “Strange… bad strange. She’s always weighing everything and everyone she meets. She’s never treated me as anything other than a child. Will you go with me?”

IALAI WILLSHAPER CONFIRMED

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Standing beside her was Mraize, one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods.

Oh. No. You. Di'nt. 

MRAIZE IS DRAGON CONFIRMED

Well, looking back at my quote of myself, and it's lack of inclusion of the quote boxes I quoted in my quoted box, it makes gloriously little sense. I'll even happier with it than I was before. And a little hungry...

Extesian out 

[Pattern he/him]

17 minutes ago, Extesian said:

And I remain very interested in healing and the way Stormlight triages injuries. I felt like minor ones go first, because of Kal.

I always assumed (and I believe somewhere it is stated explicitly) that Stormlight, like other Investiture, first heals the most dangerous wounds, so when it happens to run out it has bought the most time possible to heal further either on your own or to get more Stormlight.

17 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Oh and CULTIVATION! My lady! Again, how does she know the name?

Cultivation, the Rosharan goddess of - female stuff...
We haven't had much about this, so it's perfectly possible that the name is prominent in Rosharan lore.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Pattern

[BlackYeti he/him]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

So Kaladin is just pretending not to be able to see/hear the yellow Voidspren, right? The ending to Chapter 15 being from his POV certainly suggests he heard it give the alert about him being in the bushes.

I don't think so. Spren are sometimes visible and sometimes invisible, for example, while Syl is usually invisible to everyone but Kaladin, she can make herself visible to someone else if she chooses. How visible they are, however, clearly depends on the type of spren, since Pattern is visible to everyone all the time. The listeners can apparently see all spren even when they're invisible to everyone else.

So while Kaladin clearly saw/heard the Voidspren that night, there has been no indication that he has done since, which to me implies that the spren is usually invisible to him.

8 hours ago, robardin said:

So the reawakened parshmen can sense/hear the distant rhythms of other Listeners, but they don't know what it means. More tellingly, they don't do the Rhythms among themselves - suggesting that other "reborn" parshmen don't, either. Conclusion: some of the original "Parshendi" survived and are out there singing the Music of the Void.

I think you're working off of a false assumption here. I don't think that when the listeners hear the Rhythms, they are hearing other listeners. Rather, I think that the Rhythms exist externally to the listeners, and the listeners are singing along to the Rhythms. 

Brandon clearly implies this here:

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Q: Hypothetically, if all of the Listeners were to go extinct would the Rhythms still exist?

A: Yes.

Q: Are there any other species in the cosmere that also interact with the Rhythms like the listeners do? (Though not necessarily in the same way?)

A: Yes.

And here he indicates a way that a non-listener could interact with the rhythms:

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AETHENOTH

Can an allomantic bronze burner hear the rhythms on Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, this is possible.

I think this should demonstrate that the Rhythms are not a listener "hive-mind", and thus the fact that these listeners can hear the rhythms does not mean in and of itself that there must be survivors from the original "Parshendi" as you put it.

[king of nowhere]

dalinar was a reprehensible individual, but at least he was honest and no-nonsense. And  he was honorable, in the way warlike societies measure it. Brandon did a good job showing how the bloodthirsty warlord had in him the seeds that would become today's dalinar.

Also, am I the only one for whom the most distressing part of "stab a man with his own knife, washes knife in the wine, then uses knife to cut meat" was that after washing the knife in the wine he did not wipe it with a tablecloth?

 

kaladin is not being good at arguing. He should say that the people who actually enslaved the parshmen died thousands of years ago, and everyone living on roshar now has no idea what went on with it; they were born in the system and so they see it as the natural state of things, because the human mind is adaptable. Modern people are abusing the parshmen out of ignorance more than anything else.

He should also say that war is rarely the best way to solve disputations. From his time as a soldier, kaladin should have that figured out long ago.

I think realizing that stuff will be part of his next radiant oath. It also ties well with the questions he was asking after the battle of the tower, which basically amount to "was it right to help one side over the other?". I think kaladin is going to find answers here.

 

Shadolin keep getting cuter, but I would like to see adolin's pow for once. I don't remember  having a single one of those, and I think brandon is doing a disservice here: I get that shalllan is the most important character, but we got tons of her viewpoints anyway; showing adolin's perspective for once isn't going to hurt. Unless there are details we should not know yet?

 

 

[kari-no-sugata]

13 hours ago, Alderant said:

I don't know that Shallan has really had time to sit down and consider this. She's had a lot on her plate and if this thought had occurred yet I think we would have seen evidence of it in the text up 'til now...

Well, we don't really know how Shallan spends her time currently. She was busy with the Oathgate for a while but it's hard to say what other things there were that she "had" to do as a priority rather than things she had to resolve sometime (of which she has a lot). So, I think she has had enough time to think about Jasnah and that Jasnah could have survived, and that she blames herself for preventing Jasnah's survival.

Chapter 21:

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“Adolin, dear,” she said, finally pulling the blanket back down to her shoulders, “I could literally survive being stabbed with a sword through the chest. I think I’ll be fine with some ruffians in the market.”

Hmm. I had thought that Shallen had said or thought something like this line already in previous chapters but it's the only one I can find in OB (she did say something similar in WoR though).

Anyway, Jasnah literally took a knife through the chest and Shallan knows that. So she'd only have to think about "Jasnah's death through stabbing" once after she became aware that a Radiant could survive that to think that "Jasnah could have survived if I'd done something different". Since the start of OB, Shallan has had a lot of mental pain going through her and certainly most/all of that is because of events in her past because we see her thinking about that. But it's also possible that Jasnah's death could be an addition to that and part of the reason why she hates herself but it's mostly being drowned out by the pain of stabbing her own mother through the chest. It wouldn't be the first time that Shallan privately worried about something but we didn't find out until later.

We'll have to wait and see of course, but this could turn out to be foreshadowing.

Another way in which this line is could be foreshadowing is that someone tries to assassinate Shallan. She doesn't even have a proper door and has been quite casual about the dangers facing her (not that this is new) and she's low on Stormlight. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan goes on the offensive against Ialai to protect Adolin, making herself a target - eg, bringing up the bridge drop which could have killed her (and Kaladin) that was targeted at Dalinar. I wouldn't be surprised to see her summon Patternblade as a little demonstration either. However, obviously protecting Adolin in front of Mraize would be dangerous too.

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

kaladin is not being good at arguing. He should say that the people who actually enslaved the parshmen died thousands of years ago, and everyone living on roshar now has no idea what went on with it; they were born in the system and so they see it as the natural state of things, because the human mind is adaptable. Modern people are abusing the parshmen out of ignorance more than anything else.

Not justifying this one way or another but this argument does not really work in the real world either for a large group of people. Rarely is ignorance justified as a means to continue something people know (or should know) to be wrong like slavery in the minds of those oppressed. Plus does Kaladin really believe this? He is still pretty fresh from hating all light eyes himself. 

 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

Shadolin keep getting cuter, but I would like to see adolin's pow for once. I don't remember  having a single one of those, and I think brandon is doing a disservice here: I get that shalllan is the most important character, but we got tons of her viewpoints anyway; showing adolin's perspective for once isn't going to hurt. Unless there are details we should not know yet?

DING DING DING! I cant help but think this is the case for the blatant lack of POV but man I want and hope we see this in this book. 

[Alderant she/her]

Sorry for the mutli-part quote, kari. I just wanted to address each point individually.

26 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Well, we don't really know how Shallan spends her time currently. She was busy with the Oathgate for a while but it's hard to say what other things there were that she "had" to do as a priority rather than things she had to resolve sometime (of which she has a lot). So, I think she has had enough time to think about Jasnah and that Jasnah could have survived, and that she blames herself for preventing Jasnah's survival.

Exactly. We don't know how she spends her time, but we do know she's been avoiding other responsibilities in favor of practicing her lightweaving (Sebarial confirms that she hasn't worked on his ledgers in weeks). We also know that she has the tendency to avoid and/or sidestep painful thoughts unless she is confronted about them in a way that she cannot just run away from. While quantitatively she may have had enough time to think about Jasnah, I doubt she's allowed herself enough time to really analyze the boat situation just yet. She had ample opportunity to consider this upon reaching the Shattered Plains, yet she confirms to Navani that she saw Jasnah dead.

32 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Anyway, Jasnah literally took a knife through the chest and Shallan knows that.

Yes. Shallan saw Jasnah literally take a knife through the heart and not survive. That's what Shallan saw. Perhaps as a proto-Radiant Jasnah might have survived, but Shallan thinks she saw Jasnah's corpse (dead body). So it would be a stretch for Shallan, who believes Jasnah's death is as good as confirmed, to suddenly jump to the conclusion that Jasnah might not be dead simply because she was stabbed with a knife. Also note she says "stabbed through the chest," she does not say "stabbed through the heart." Being stabbed through the heart is instantly fatal. I don't know that even stormlight could heal that quickly enough, as the Jasnah teaser a while back mentions. Jasnah was seconds from death when Ivory forcibly pulled her into the cognitive realm. Being stabbed through the chest, however, could mean a lung wound, could mean the middle of the ribcage, could mean just below the heart--there's enough variance there that, depending on the location and copious amounts of stormlight, she could survive.

I also think Shallan is being a little foolhardy with respect to her Radiantness, and part of that may be blustering for the simple reason of keeping Adolin from worrying about her safety. Shallan is a young girl from a rural Veden house--she's used to being on her own and wandering as she pleases, which is why she's uncomfortable with bodyguards except in the most regal circumstances (e.g. introducing herself to the Alethi court).

42 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Since the start of OB, Shallan has had a lot of mental pain going through her and certainly most/all of that is because of events in her past because we see her thinking about that. But it's also possible that Jasnah's death could be an addition to that and part of the reason why she hates herself but it's mostly being drowned out by the pain of stabbing her own mother through the chest. It wouldn't be the first time that Shallan privately worried about something but we didn't find out until later.

I agree with you on this point. I think Jasnah's death could definitely be an addition to the other pain she is going through, and there's certainly some survivor's guilt as well, but this is more of a reason that Shallan wouldn't think about it. It's pain. Shallan avoids pain unless absolutely necessary--or unless she's drunk and personifying Veil.

48 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Another way in which this line is could be foreshadowing is that someone tries to assassinate Shallan.

If you're inferring the Ghostbloods...doubtful, for reasons I've already explained. If you're inferring someone else...maybe.

50 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan goes on the offensive against Ialai to protect Adolin, making herself a target - eg, bringing up the bridge drop which could have killed her (and Kaladin) that was targeted at Dalinar. I wouldn't be surprised to see her summon Patternblade as a little demonstration either. However, obviously protecting Adolin in front of Mraize would be dangerous too.

First off, I would be very surprised to see Shallan summon her Patternblade for a demonstration. She hates the blade, and wants to touch it as little as possible. She has a panic attack just thinking about summoning it. Maybe I'd concede that if she became Radiant instead, but I don't know that politics are Radiant's strongsuit here. As far as going on the offensive against Ialai, as of right now there's no reason for her to. She is there as moral support, and Ialai is very intelligent and clever. And as you said, Mraize's presence there is dangerous for Shallan, not the least of which because she risks the exposure of her connection to the Ghostbloods to Adolin and his family. Again, it's doubtful Mraize would make a move against Shallan--he considers her one of them now, and the Ghostbloods care for their own.

[Farnsworth]

So I’m getting these chapters late in the evening because of my time zone. I was at the Tamar music festival near Masada   () when I realized they were out. So I started reading in the middle of a concert.

This one singer, Eden Ben Zaken, came out right at the moment where Navani walked in. Now whenever I read about Navani I will picture an Israeli singer singing “Yacha Bibi Ealai”

Strangest headcannon of all time.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Farnsworth

[Alderant she/her]

@king of nowhere I just read your signature:

Quote

 

King of nowhere's three laws of cosmere relevant characters.

1) don't trust the beggars. Most of them are really worldhoppers, or protoradiants, or mistborn urchins. Escaped kidnapped princesses at the least.

2) don't trust the mentally ill. Most of them are worldhoppers, or they are receiving some vision from a shard.

3) if someone is both a beggar and mentally ill, there's a 50% chance it's Hoid

 

This is great. I'm laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes.

[kari-no-sugata]

14 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Sorry for the mutli-part quote, kari. I just wanted to address each point individually.

That's fine, it's just what I would do. Though I'm not going to address every point (due to lack of time).

 

14 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Exactly. We don't know how she spends her time, but we do know she's been avoiding other responsibilities in favor of practicing her lightweaving (Sebarial confirms that she hasn't worked on his ledgers in weeks). We also know that she has the tendency to avoid and/or sidestep painful thoughts unless she is confronted about them in a way that she cannot just run away from. While quantitatively she may have had enough time to think about Jasnah, I doubt she's allowed herself enough time to really analyze the boat situation just yet. She had ample opportunity to consider this upon reaching the Shattered Plains, yet she confirms to Navani that she saw Jasnah dead.

I think it's important to take a step back and recall that Shallan was slowly learning about her Radiant abilities during WoR. So when did she first know that it was possible to survive something like that? Only after she dropped down into the chasms. Until that point, she had no reason to believe that Jasnah had any chance of survival. So what she said to Navani was her honest opinion at the time.

I don't think she has to analyse the boat situation in detail. She just has to think "Jasnah could probably have survived those wounds"

 

14 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I also think Shallan is being a little foolhardy with respect to her Radiantness, and part of that may be blustering for the simple reason of keeping Adolin from worrying about her safety. Shallan is a young girl from a rural Veden house--she's used to being on her own and wandering as she pleases, which is why she's uncomfortable with bodyguards except in the most regal circumstances (e.g. introducing herself to the Alethi court).

With regards to her being "foolhardy", I think this is just an extension of how she behaved before but this is a complex topic. The way I see it, Shallan blames herself for many things and as a consequence is not especially bothered if she has to go through some physical pain. It's not that she wishes to be unhappy or wants to be in pain but rather that she doesn't prioritise herself like normal people do.

 

14 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I agree with you on this point. I think Jasnah's death could definitely be an addition to the other pain she is going through, and there's certainly some survivor's guilt as well, but this is more of a reason that Shallan wouldn't think about it. It's pain. Shallan avoids pain unless absolutely necessary--or unless she's drunk and personifying Veil.

I think she's been facing her pain more directly since the start of OB. At least, it comes up a lot more often and more strongly than it did in WoR. Though part of that is because she can't avoid it due to her Truth. Hard to say how much.

 

14 minutes ago, Alderant said:

If you're inferring the Ghostbloods...doubtful, for reasons I've already explained. If you're inferring someone else...maybe.

I was thinking of Ialai.

[Alderant she/her]

2 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think she's been facing her pain more directly since the start of OB. At least, it comes up a lot more often and more strongly than it did in WoR. Though part of that is because she can't avoid it due to her Truth. Hard to say how much.

I think she is being confronted by her pain more often, yes, but I don't think she's really facing it. She's just running from it whenever possible, whether that be through a persona, or alcohol, or losing herself in her studies. But yes, it is definitely coming up more often.

 

7 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to her being "foolhardy", I think this is just an extension of how she behaved before but this is a complex topic. The way I see it, Shallan blames herself for many things and as a consequence is not especially bothered if she has to go through some physical pain. It's not that she wishes to be unhappy or wants to be in pain but rather that she doesn't prioritise herself like normal people do.

It is indeed a complex topic. Mental illness is never easy. I don't think she wishes to be unhappy or in pain either--in fact, I think she desperately wants to be happy and pain-free, which is why she so desperately avoids thinking about her pain. And we've seen it in other media that when someone learns they have supernatural powers, they do get foolhardy and think "I'm invincible!" to a degree. I don't know. Maybe you're right and she will connect the dots between her resilience and Jasnah possibly surviving, but I just don't think she's made that connection yet.

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

“Adolin, dear,” she said, finally pulling the blanket back down to her shoulders, “I could literally survive being stabbed with a sword through the chest. I think I’ll be fine with some ruffians in the market.”

I think Shallan is getting a little bold with this thought process and it worries me.  As someone stated above, she has already said something along these lines and I'm concerned about this attitude.  Girl, your healing abilities are only as good as the amount of Stormlight that you possess.  Don't get cocky.

[StormblessDave]

I haven’t read any of the previous post so forgive me if I repeat a few points

These things stuck out for me from these 3 chapters:

~“Shubreth-son-Mashalan, Sunmaker, the Hierocracy.....”

Is the shin-like name sunmaker’s name or is it a Shin conqueror?

~”Navani blinked. “How in the Almighty’s tenth name did you do that?”

The Almighty has different names?what are they and are they in any way linked to the 10 orders?

Kaladin chapter:

The voidbringers, Syl can see the yellow Spren. Kaladin cannot.

Does this mean Kaladin, Yellow spren can see Syl. Voidbringers cannot.

Is that plausible or not? If not why can’t Kal see it?

Shallan chapter:

“Standing beside her was Mraize, one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods.”

It more or less confirms that Ghostbloods is more complex and bigger than what we have seen so far, the “one of the leaders” more or less clinches it.

 

These were some of the few amazing bits in the chapters I found interesting, what say you Sharders?

[Zea mays]

So the yellow spren is guiding groups of parshfolk towards Kholinar in a great hurry.

Syl thinks a highstorm is due in ~ 2 days

theory time: the voidsperns want to repeat what Eshonai did with the Parshendi, a mass conversion into stormform. The uncertain assumtion I am relying on here is that a highstorm is needed in order to summon stormspren en masse.

 

[DSC01 he/him]

1 minute ago, Zea mays said:

So the yellow spren is guiding groups of parshfolk towards Kholinar in a great hurry.

Syl thinks a highstorm is due in ~ 2 days

theory time: the voidsperns want to repeat what Eshonai did with the Parshendi, a mass conversion into stormform. The uncertain assumtion I am relying on here is that a highstorm is needed in order to summon stormspren en masse.

 

The Highstorm at the end of WoR wasn't supposed to happen, though. The Stormfather threw a Highstorm at the Everstorm in direct response to it. That doesn't necessarily poke holes in the hypothesis: Odium could have been well aware of how the Stormfather would react to the first Everstorm, and it is only now that he needs to time Everstorms and Highstorms to coincide. We'll have to see.