[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[Andy92]

I haven't had time to read many comments for the past couple days, but I wanted to mention just how much I loved this part of chapter 20.

Quote

And that’s why we should be free now? Because we’re acting like you? We deserved slavery before, when we were different? It’s all right to dominate us when we won’t fight back, but now it’s not, because we can talk?

Man, this just hits the nail on the head for so many issues going on today. "You're different than me so you're less than me" is a mentality some unfortunately have even if they wouldn't admit it. I love how Brandon weaves important messages like this into fictional stories. 

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, Andy92 said:

I haven't had time to read many comments for the past couple days, but I wanted to mention just how much I loved this part of chapter 20.

Man, this just hits the nail on the head for so many issues going on today. "You're different than me so you're less than me" is a mentality some unfortunately have even if they wouldn't admit it. I love how Brandon weaves important messages like this into fictional stories. 

Before this the Parshmen seemingly couldn't survive without care. Much like domesticated animals, but with a limited ability to communicate. As a society we still struggle with how to deal with similar populations in the real world. Most of the time it remains the parent's responsibility. But the parshmen don't have functioning parents. The question the parshman is asking isn't the right question. Now that the Parshmen can care for themselves they should not be used. But before that... There wasn't a good answer. The options were, let them all die, take care of an entire species because they're incapable, make parshmen into a resource so the species could continue, or make them pets. None of those options are good, but the slavery angle made sure the Parshmen had a large population and kept society from falling apart. It wasn't right, but it might have been best. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Aminar

[StormingTexan he/him]

Agreed. I’m really liking the direction Brandon went with this. Not only because it is so unexpected but because it adds so much more complexity to the story.

[IllNsickly he/him]

I am just happy that this isn't a Parshemen/Endi= Blanket bad guys.

I would have lost all Faith in The Cosmere if it had been that cut and dried.

[Andy92]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Before this the Parshmen seemingly couldn't survive without care. Much like domesticated animals, but with a limited ability to communicate. As a society we still struggle with how to deal with similar populations in the real world. Most of the time it remains the parent's responsibility. But the parshmen don't have functioning parents. The question the parshman is asking isn't the right question. Now that the Parshmen can care for themselves they should not be used. But before that... There wasn't a good answer. The options were, let them all die, take care of an entire species because they're incapable, make parshmen into a resource so the species could continue, or make them pets. None of those options are good, but the slavery angle made sure the Parshmen had a large population and kept society from falling apart. It wasn't right, but it might have been best. 

Even though I know where you're coming from, I disagree that the parshman asked the wrong question. Because in these chapters Kaladin is surprised at how Alethi-like that are, as if being like the Alethi is what makes them worthy creatures. 

You may say humans gave the parshmen a chance at survival because they weren't able to care for themselves. But the only reason they couldn't care for themselves was because of something the humans did to them. It would be the equivalent of crippling someone and then telling them "well at least I'm feeding you, you'd starve without me." 

But I'm somewhat getting off track. The reason I loved that quote was because of the real-world implications. "A lot of slave owners were nice to their slaves. Gave them meals and a bed to sleep in." Doesn't change the fact that they were forced into slavery in the first place. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

6 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

I was thinking about Mraize being with Ialai.  What if she is going to ask Adolin if she can have Mraize join Adolin’s investigation? Have a representative on the team? Do avoid bias . Adolin would have a hard time denying her request.  Then it would be Shallan, Adolin, & Mraize working together  Then Mraize & Shallan could interact publicly in Urithiru without causing suspicion. That could get interesting. I really don’t believe Ialai knows who her husbands killer was — other than suspecting someone in Dalinar’s camp. 

As a huge Mraize fan, I really love this idea. It would allow Mraize (and the Ghostbloods, by extension) to start interacting with other people than Shallan. I'd love to see Mraize having a conversation with Adolin, for example.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Even if she has no proof, even if she doesn't really think Adolin or anyone from Dalinar's camp did it, even if she believes in a chance murderer, she would still try to use it as an opportunity. And what does Ialai want? Well, we do not know this yet, but plausible guesses would be: revenge and political relevance now her partner is dead. She certainly isn't going to side with Dalinar, hence she will oppose him. What better way to do so then to continue dear Torol's work? 

Yup. Exactly this.

And I knew, that there was something, that Sadeas said in the back of my head, but I didn't have the time to search the quote yet. Thanks for that @maxal

6 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

I was thinking about Mraize being with Ialai.  What if she is going to ask Adolin if she can have Mraize join Adolin’s investigation? Have a representative on the team? Do avoid bias . Adolin would have a hard time denying her request.  Then it would be Shallan, Adolin, & Mraize working together  Then Mraize & Shallan could interact publicly in Urithiru without causing suspicion. That could get interesting. I really don’t believe Ialai knows who her husbands killer was — other than suspecting someone in Dalinar’s camp. 

Now, wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events.

I also was thinking about the possibility of Mraize, aside from being a GB leader, being the head of Ialai's spy ring, that someone in the other thread brought up. Could be... And if he should be put onto the investigation, he could turn this into a test of loyalty for Shallan. Make her choose between Adolin or the Ghostbloods. But maybe my mind is just too diabolical.

I want to point out, that I'm just speculating. I have no textual basis for these ideas and I know it, so there is no need to react overly harsh. Just as a preemptive measure.

The thing is, that Ialai doesn't really need to know, who the killer is. She just wants to secure her own political position - by weakening the Kholins. I still think, she highly suspects any of the Kholins and especially Adolin, with reference to the quote maxal so kindly provided. There was a feud between the houses. It makes the Kholins a prime suspect in her eyes.

Edited October 12, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern he/him]

2 hours ago, Andy92 said:

You may say humans gave the parshmen a chance at survival because they weren't able to care for themselves. But the only reason they couldn't care for themselves was because of something the humans did to them. It would be the equivalent of crippling someone and then telling them "well at least I'm feeding you, you'd starve without me." 

The alternative to the enslavement of the Parshmen would have been the total destruction of the race at the Last Desolation. There had been a plan to do so, until Melishi tried an alternative - resulting in their loss of Identity and Connection. (See WoR chapter 58 epigraph)

Note that only Listeners in Forms of Power (Voidbringers) were affected by this, the Parshendi who had abandoned their gods survived this unscathed.*

This does not make the human treatment of Parshmen, especially the breeding part, right, but it does give the situation another perspective and a middle ground for negotiations now that things have changed. The present Parshmen have a right to be angry for the things they had to endure. On the other hand, the original plan to destroy the Voidbringers -if successful - would have meant that they wouldn't have existed at all. Nothing can be won by cultivating grudges from the past.

* This might give indications to what has been ripped off the Voidbringers and why only the Everstorm with Odium's Investiture was able to heal the Parshmen.

@maxal, @SLNC: I expect either Ialai to confront Adolin next week with the accusation of him having killed Torol and Mraize giving proof or to announce Mraize as new Highprince of the Sadeas princedom (she does not have children to inherit, does she?)

Edited October 12, 2017 by Pattern

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

2 hours ago, Pattern said:

I expect either Ialai to confront Adolin next week with the accusation of him having killed Torol and Mraize giving proof or to announce Mraize as new Highprince of the Sadeas princedom (she does not have children to inherit, does she?)

I'd love to see further Amaram-GB conflict with both sides trying to end up highprince of the Sadeas princedom. Might be funny to see not only our heroes interact with the societies, but also the societies among themselves in front of a large public.

[Starla]

Do we know for certain that a female cannot be a Highprince in Alethkar? If anyone were to try it, I think it would be Ialai. Sadeas does not have a male heir and I can't see her handing it off to someone outside the family. She was sitting on a throne in this scene, so she is already projecting herself as a leader. 

[soyperson]

Do we think that Dalinar went to the Valley before or after Gavilar's murder?

[RYANHOME he/him]

On 10/10/2017 at 8:25 AM, She Who Cannot Be Named said:

If only a few non-Odiumspren bonded Parshendi were around... 

 

 

It's really weird that they still have Stormlight. If the timeline is proressing simultaneously along to Kaladin's, there should be another Highstorm during the next week. Apart from that: could something in Urithiru influence the Stormlight evaporation time / halflife time?^^ As they haven't altered anything about the spheres themselves, they should hold the same amount of Stormlight for the same time. My first guess would be something about the general environment. I wonder if any of the Fabrial researchers are already on to that phenomenon...

I mean it's gotta be the strata in the walls right it's only been mentioned in every shallen chapter. She even had drawings of it she didn't remember doing.

[JoyBlu she/her]

7 hours ago, Andy92 said:

Even though I know where you're coming from, I disagree that the parshman asked the wrong question. Because in these chapters Kaladin is surprised at how Alethi-like that are, as if being like the Alethi is what makes them worthy creatures. 

You may say humans gave the parshmen a chance at survival because they weren't able to care for themselves. But the only reason they couldn't care for themselves was because of something the humans did to them. It would be the equivalent of crippling someone and then telling them "well at least I'm feeding you, you'd starve without me." 

But I'm somewhat getting off track. The reason I loved that quote was because of the real-world implications. "A lot of slave owners were nice to their slaves. Gave them meals and a bed to sleep in." Doesn't change the fact that they were forced into slavery in the first place. 

 

8 hours ago, Frostlander said:

Now that we’ve met post-Everstorm parshmen, it may be time to rethink our assumptions about the Listeners. I apologize if this has been discussed to death in a different way, but I wasn’t able to find anything challenging the idea that the term “Last Legion” was anything but positive.

It has seemed natural to assume that the Listeners (Parshendi is a nationality) are the correct or proper type of Parsh-Rosharan. They are represented by relatable, well-meaning characters and have a fascinating oral tradition that tells of a daring escape from Odium’s influence. We contrasted them with the enslaved parshmen whom they pitied for not having forms or hearing rhythms.

Now we have a second group traveling with Kaladin who, despite not having multiple forms or attuning to the rhythms, are just as relatable and intelligent as the Listeners. Is one group more “natural” or “better” than the other? 

What got me thinking about this is the title of the interlude that introduces us to Venli’s research and stormspren, “Last Legion.” It’s also the chapter where Eshonai’s mother describes the Listeners as the “Last Legion,” and we hear the story of how they escaped:

I think this is problematic in a series about the loss of knowledge and how it seems to have led humans to forget critical pieces of their history and set Odium’s plans in motion. Why not the Listeners, too? Eshonai even thinks:

It’s possible that others have noticed that this history is a bit troubling, but now, especially after seeing the group traveling with Kaladin, there are red flags all over the place.

The Listeners believe that they are a self-sacrificing Last Legion, but given that this is also the interlude where we see the Listeners move toward bonding with stormspren, we should consider the possibility that the Listeners are actually Odium’s last legion (lower case). Much like humans have been manipulated over millennia, is it possible that Odium ensured that there was one last legion remaining when the future parshmen had their spiritwebs damaged? It would actually be easier for him to manipulate the Listeners, to trick them into believing that they had escaped, leaving just enough mysterious information for them to figure out how to discover forms that brought them progressively closer to summoning the Everstorm.

I’ve also grown increasingly suspicious of the rhythms, or at least the potential to “piggyback” on the signal and transmit information that helps Odium:

I’m wondering if the group with Kaladin would need to attune to the rhythms they are aware of—but don’t understand—before they could transform, even in the coming highstorm.

At any rate, I don’t think that we can be sure what these Parsh-Rosharans should look like, if they should have multiple forms, or what their relationship to the rhythms should be. Would the healed parshmen eventually die without a spren bond? Are they fine the way they are?

I do think we should consider the possibility that the Parshendi (and any other Listeners) were Odium’s unwitting last legion.

 

Quote

The day of the storm when the Last Legion fled,” Mother continued in song. “Difficult was the path chosen. Warriors, touched by the gods, our only choice to seek dullness of mind. A crippling that brought freedom.”…“Daring was the challenge made,” Mother sang, “when the Last Legion abandoned thought and power in exchange for freedom. They risked forgetting all. And so songs they composed, a hundred stories to tell, to remember. I tell them to you, and you will tell them to your children, until the forms are again discovered."

1

Im not sure the humans were the ones who enslaved the Parshindi. It seems to me that they purposely enslaved theirselves. 

 

 

 

[Blacksmithki]

17 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

 

 

Im not sure the humans were the ones who enslaved the Parshindi. It seems to me that they purposely enslaved theirselves. 

 

 

 

The parshendi were never enslaved, we are discussing the enslavment of the parshmen, the parshmen willingly abandoned thier gods for dullform, the parshmen were forced to have no form.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Mraize has Oathbringer just a gut feeling nothing to back this up with. 

[JoyBlu she/her]

@Blacksmithki

Yes. The parshendi and the parshmen.  They were both parshendi and then part of them abandoned all forms and became “enslaved” as parshmen in order to save the parshendi race. 

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

32 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

@Blacksmithki

Yes. The parshendi and the parshmen.  They were both parshendi and then part of them abandoned all forms and became “enslaved” as parshmen in order to save the parshendi race. 

I think you've misunderstood this.

The Parshmen aren't the ones that abandoned their gods, the Parshendi did. The Parshendi gave up their forms to somehow avoid what happened to the rest of the Parshmen, which implies that the humans only targeted those in voidbringer forms.

Edit: Or that the forms of power themselves were responsible.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Andy92]

@JoyBlu The parshmen weren't enslaved willingly based on the information we know so far. The Parshendi abandoning their gods (aka the Odiumspren bonds/forms) is different than the parshmen being forcefully enslaved. Parshendi dullform is not the same thing as the parshmen "slaveform" for lack of a better term. The "slaveform" was forced upon the parshmen by humans. Hence Jasnah discovery at the end of tWoK..."We didn't defeat the Voidbringers. We enslaved them." 

[JoyBlu she/her]

@Cowmanthethird

perhaps I do misunderstand

thank you for the explanation — something for me to think about — I hadn’t considered that before

But we all agree that the parshendi/parshmen were at one time the one and the same. They were all Listeners, and then were split (for whatever reason by either 1) themselves, 2) the Gods/forms of power over Roshar,  3) humans, or 4) an unknown influence) into two groups. These two groups then became parshendi & parshmen.

 

It doesn’t appear to me that the two groups knew about each other until recently. It is possible that the parshmen chose willingly to give up their forms as a sacrifice for a greater good -or it was a form of punishment as @Cowmanthethird has point out. The Parshendi (either to avoid the punishment) or because they didn’t want to sacrifice their forms like the other group did. 

My thoughts tell me that in order for the power/reason that separated them to be overcome that the Listeners(both parshendi & parshmen) will have to return to full Listeners and unite with the humans. Which is the reason they were “separated” in the first place — to keep them from being united against this power/force. 

As I’m typing this I’m not sure it makes sense anymore. Anyone else out there want to try to clarify my thoughts for me and help me understand? 

 

@Andy92 thanks for your post. So slaveform would pretty much be “no form”? I guess I still don’t understand the whole voidbringer thing. Are we sure that voidbringers are the parshmen? I know people think that — but do we know? That part has always confused me and Lift sure didn’t help me with that at all. 

 

@StormingTexan

—seeing Mraize with Oathbringer would be amusing. Here is the recent evidence we found . . . . Use it to find the murderer!!!!! But who found it? Mraize found it — then he must be the murderer!!! (Although I don’t think Adolin would/could accuse anyone else) he might stand by while Shallan did though. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by JoyBlu

[StormingTexan he/him]

9 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

—seeing Mraize with Oathbringer would be amusing. Here is the recent evidence we found . . . . Use it to find the murderer!!!!! But who found it? Mraize found it — then he must be the murderer!!! (Although I don’t think Adolin would/could accuse anyone else) he might stand by while Shallan did though. 

That is what makes it interesting presumable the person that finds it would be the prime suspect. Unless the person that finds it was charged with investigating the murder e.g. Ialai  hired him to investigate the murder. Finding the shardblade takes away some motives for killing Torol and points more towards a crime of passion. 

[Mulk he/him]

18 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@JoyBlu I saw you asking about Mraizes worldhopper status, but there is a WoB (apologies if someone already posted it):

 

love that WoB, hadn't seen it.  That means...Iyatil is also a Worldhopper, right?  I need to do some thinking on where she's from then.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

11 minutes ago, Mulk said:

love that WoB, hadn't seen it.  That means...Iyatil is also a Worldhopper, right?  I need to do some thinking on where she's from then.

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

Spoiler

She is a descendant from the Southern Scadrials. The mask is a dead give away after BoM.

 

[StormingTexan he/him]

@WhiteLeeopard never made that connection until you pointed it out thanks! 

[Mulk he/him]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

  Hide contents

She is a descendant from the Southern Scadrials. The mask is a dead give away after BoM.

 

I've read Alloy of Law, haven't read the other two, mainly cause I can't ever find a copy of Shadows of Self when I go book shopping.  EVERYONE has Bands of Mourning, NOONE has Shadows of Self. Sigh.

[Blacksmithki]

32 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I've read Alloy of Law, haven't read the other two, mainly cause I can't ever find a copy of Shadows of Self when I go book shopping.  EVERYONE has Bands of Mourning, NOONE has Shadows of Self. Sigh.

That's too bad, I always found it to be one of his best books. Try looking it up online, I would expect most online stores to have it.