[OB] Oathbringer chapters 22-24

[sprocket]

In regards to the theory that Tezim is Jezrien, haven't we heard that Jezrien is basically just a gibbering drunk nowadays? And we know Ishar is effectively leading the other Heralds right now. Ishar was the one who told Nale to start hunting radiants, and this Tezim guy really doesn't seem to want new radiants around either. This plus Mraize saying that Tezim might not be human at all, along with the hints that the heralds aren't really human either, seals the deal for me. 

[Oversleep]

The whole "Mraize's bird is an Aviar" thing feels just like the craziness about VenDell's coat color...

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Ghostbloods are intriguing, as their end game is shrouded in fog. And i would say that is almost 100% an Aviar. I'm in the minority camp that believes it wasn't actually Helaran that was killed (will happily take it back if proven wrong :P)

This...phenomena in Urithiru, could it be linked to the strata? They looks like visual representation of a kind a corruption of the rocks. (Naturally occuring aside)

I'm intrigued as to why/how his suspected voidspren has gained so much cognitive awareness in the physical. Could it be she's linked/tenuously bonded to the ground itself?

I'm eager to see Mr T's plan for Urithiru, as from what little we do know of the Diagram, Urithiru hasn't been mentioned much

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, Overstorm said:

The whole "Mraize's bird is an Aviar" thing feels just like the craziness about VenDell's coat color...

It does except VenDell didn't have a collection of magical items from bunch of different worlds. 

[Garglemesh he/him]

I know that little yellow spren being voidspren is likely and whatnot, but I don't see it being bound to a Listener or anything. We know from their songs that the Listeners are too close to the CR to be of much use to spren:

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can’t provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.

 

WoR Ch. 32 - The One Who Hates - Epigraph

You talk about voidspren bonding Listeners to give them forms like Stormform, and we hear nothing of spren accompanying them like this. For a spren to gain as much consciousness as this li'l lady has in the PR, something else has to be going on in my opinion. Unless there's voidspren for changing forms and voidspren for becoming evil KR, for which I don't remember seeing any allusions. I think something else is giving her her strong physical connection.

[Erunion he/him]

The voidspren’s strong presence in the physical is likely because they were able to use Odium’s perpendicularity on Roshar - which is almost certainly the everstorm. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

I swear tuesdays are like Upvote Economy insanity. The 'market' just gets suddenly flooded with upvotes everywhere. 

[maxal she/her]

Here are my thoughts so far on the three new chapters. This week, they will start with a rant...

I hate reading the story within this serialized manner  It gives me the impression it is slow paced as each week I hope the denouement I have been dying to read will happen and, each week, it doesn't. This is getting infuriating  If I had the books into my hands, I'd be done reading it  I feel the reading format we are constrained to forces me to be unfair towards the story and I hate it 

So there, rant over, now back to the chapters 

Chapter 22

I am not surprised it is Shallan, anyone else would have broken the pace. The meeting didn't go as I expected. I was disappointed with Ialai: she sounded neither cunning, nor manipulative, nor dangerous. A grieving woman needing to be chaperon by Mraize as if she were a child. 

Adolin did well: I expected him to trip onto his own legs in front of the "most dangerous woman in the world", but nope. He did good. He did not fall into her traps and his earnests surely shed away doubts Ialai might have had towards him.

Fiery Adolin has fire whenever someone attacks his family. He would never let anyone bad mouth or attack them so long as he is standing. As always, it makes me wonder if there is anyone who'd be willing to do the same for him?

He thinks he will ruin it... Adolin never been defeatism until now.

Still, I think Ialai was thinking of Adolin the whole time with her whitespine story. I also think she is thinking of him when she claims a soldier disobeyed and killed Sadeas thinking to do good. She has to know a regular soldier would never dare such a ploy. She has to suspect Adolin even if his behavior did not hint towards any guilt.

I was annoyed we missed some of the conversation in between Adolin and Ialai just so Shallan could talk with Mraize  He wants her to keep on her investigation... Of course, he knows about her previous "investigations".

And thus Shallan and Adolin's story arc part ways: Adolin can go back to the background, the story arc was taken away from him  The lack of pay-off for WoR's cliffhanger remain sa disappointment for me, as a reader, unless it finally happens, but I keep feeling the story was stolen from Adolin and given to Shallan. 

The supernatural theory is confirmed: there are no copycat murderer, just a weird city. Shallan will uncover it.

Ialai and Sadeas were not Ghostbloods: this would have been interesting. I'm a bit disappointed in Ialai not turning out to be a "super villain".

Helaran is back into the equation. I expected him to be broached with Kaladin, but I expected it to be a minor plot point, not something sounding so decisive.

As some suspected, Shallan is way too distracted by herself and her "problems" to focus on supporting Adolin. Nothing bad happened in the meeting, but it goes back to my previous point: Adolin is sinking into the background.

Amaram being tossed into the equation could be interesting, if it brings back the narrative onto "Who killed Sadeas?".

So the chapter ends and Adolin still did not confess nor give clear indications with respect to his guilt, Shallan still did not piece it together. Sigh.

Chapter 23

Kaladin was actually interesting this week  The Voidspren is taking a Syl-like appearance in order to taunt Kaladin into joining forces with them. All this time most readers thought it was Adolin Odium would go for, but no. Kaladin's hatred of the ruling class combined with his high sympathy for those looking "weak" and "abused" has made him the perfect victim to prey on.

Am I the only one who thinks the nice, abused, grieving Parshendis is a ruse to snare Kaladin? It feels like a horror movie where the good guy gets welcomed into this weird city, he starts to like the people only to realize later they are monsters manipulating him?

I get it now. I don't trust them. I don't trust this yellow spren and I think Kaladin joining forces with them would be a mistake.

Fly away Kaladin!

Chapter 24

More Dalinar playing politics: I never find those chapters to be the most interesting  So nobody wants to ally themselves with Dalinar, predictable. I guess we needed all of those chapters to come to this conclusion, now what will he do? Seems like taking away Adolin's Plate to buy Iriali's support will certainly happen.

I am also annoyed at the complete lack of inter-action in between Dalinar and his sons: it is as if they had disappeared from his life all together. How can he be so selfish to think him forgetting his wife is just about him? Can't he share ONE thought for the boys who lost not only their mother, but also their father's memories of her to fill out theirs?

I think it is odd how everyone is always thinking of Jasnah whereas in WoR, after she died, nobody was thinking about her...   This is something readers commented upon in WoR.

Taravangian is clearly manipulating Dalinar in thinking he lost his wit. He has a plan and it can't be good.

DUSTBRINGER! Ah this was great. While I don't trust Matala, I was pleased to see on more Radiant: one who isn't within Dalinar's camp.

7 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Shallans chapter bored my. Mraize and his parrot do not interest me. I would have been happy with this being a pure Adolin chapter.

I share your pains  Bring back the murder story and focus it on Adolin, he's the one hiding something, not Shallan doing more investigation. I want the secret to come out 

Edited October 17, 2017 by maxal

[Nymeros]

3 hours ago, sprocket said:

haven't we heard that Jezrien is basically just a gibbering drunk nowadays?

No. However some.....theorists* do believe that a comment Nale made to Gawx was actually concerning Jezrien 

30 minutes ago, maxal said:

The Voidspren is taking a Syl-like appearance in order to taunt Kaladin into joining forces with them. 

I don't think this is the case. Syl isn't the only young female spren I'm sure.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Nymeros

[Steeldancer he/him]

5 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

No. However some.....theorists* do believe that a comment Nale made to Gawx was actually concerning Jezrien 

I don't think this is the case. Syl isn't the only young female spren I'm sure.

Hm. Do young female spren have a dating culture? 

Darn we really need JoeST emojis. They're my favorite emote in Discord

[sprocket]

20 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

No. However some.....theorists* do believe that a comment Nale made to Gawx was actually concerning Jezrien 

Right, I remember what I was thinking of now, in WoR Nale says: 

Quote

Praise Yaezir, Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling 

Which, yeah, doesn't explicitly mention drinking, but it definitely seems to disqualify him from being Tukar's God Priest 

[Nicrosil he/him]

So I'm not sure if anyone's brought this up yet, but there's no way Mraize's bird is a normal parrot; Shallan's already seen one and probably would have recognized it. Remember, she saw one at the... Midday festival? The flashback where she met Hoid. 

Also, I don't think the Sixth of Dusk perpendicularly is dangerous because of any supernatural stuff, the way travel to Sel is, but more because everything on the island will murder you. If there's a worldhopper who could survive the jungle and bond an Aviar, it would be Mraize. 

[bschnebs he/him]

I can't remember, did we already know that Mraize knew Shallan was Veil?

[bschnebs he/him]

11 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Huh? Is Kaladin prettending to be a lighteyes, or is Corporal the highest darkeyes can go? Hmm, I'm leaning that he popped up the sylblade to lighten his eyes for the authority.

Corporal isn't a high rank...its below Sergeant, and I'm pretty sure we've seen dark eyed Sergeants.

I'm more interested in what he did with his slave brands and how he pulled off Corporal with a Captain's uniform.

Edited October 18, 2017 by bschnebs
Fixed spelling/ added question

[DSC01 he/him]

14 minutes ago, bschnebs said:

I can't remember, did we already know that Mraize knew Shallan was Veil?

Yeah, at the end WoR, they reveal that they know who she is and that it changes nothing--they still consider her one of them. I don't remember exactly how it happened and don't have my book handy, but I remember that it does happen.

[DSC01 he/him]

4 hours ago, Overstorm said:

The whole "Mraize's bird is an Aviar" thing feels just like the craziness about VenDell's coat color...

I disagree. I always think that people are reading too much into things (to the point that I've been skeptical or even outright dismissive of theories that later turned out to be right), and I really think it's an Aviar. There are a number of reasons: 

1) It's an odd-looking bird. Birds are so rare on Roshar that Shallan can't tell what is and isn't odd, but it sounds like this thing basically looks like a green bird of prey. Green makes one think of parrots, but Shallan has seen a parrot before, and this one looks different to her. This is not a bird that exists in our world, even though the ones that we've seen so far sound like they're pretty close (if not essentially identical) to species that exist IRL. There is definitely something odd about the bird.

2) Mraize must have a reason to be carrying a bird on this spying expedition. Having a rare animal perched on your shoulder while you're trying to blend in as a soldier is just dumb. If he were playing the part of an eccentric noble or something, the bird makes sense as an affectation, but it adds nothing to his average, everyday soldier persona. There must be a practical reason that he is bringing it along, then.

3) Mraize's collection of magic items seems to indicate that, no matter how tough it is to survive a visit to First of the Sun, if anyone can survive and even bring home a magic bird, it's probably him (hey, maybe that's even how he got those scars). Khriss also says that you can't get to Taldain at all these days, but Mraize nevertheless had a vial of what appeared to be Dayside sand in his collection.

4) It is exactly the kind of Cosmere connection that fits into the Stomrlight Archive. Mraize's aforementioned collection, Iyatil clearly being a Southern Scadrian, Hoid using Allomancy, Vasher, Nightblood, Demoux and Galladon and Baon... All of these Cosmere-wide elements show up, and readers who know all of the series catch them, while those who are only into Stormlight don't get lost. An Aviar on Roshar fits with the other Easter Eggs. It's consistent, and Brandon is definitely consistent.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

So what does Ialai know or think she knows about Mraize?

The fact that she just happened to send Shallan and Mraize out at the same time when they could have a private talk makes me think that she did it on purpose.  Which would suggest she knows... something.

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, bschnebs said:

 

I'm more interested in what he did with his slave brands and how he pulled off Corporal with a Captain's uniform.

I don't know that being a former slave would preclude him from gaining rank if free and in the military.

Btw, he is wearing a generic Kholin uniform and not his Captain outfit or even a Bridge 4 uniform.

[ZenBossanova]

Some people have fixated on the fact that the yellow spren had Shin-like eyes, but that is a very Alethi-centric concern. It is most of Roshar that has a epicanthanal fold (Asian-like eyes). Most of the Cosmere does not. 

Also, I think we are going to see that if the 17th Shard is unhappy with Hoid, they must loathe the Ghostbloods. It looks like are trying to do something like what we suspect Hoid is trying to do, collecting different magic systems. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, bschnebs said:

Corporal isn't a high rank...its below Sergeant, and I'm pretty sure we've seen dark eyed Sergeants.

Yes Gaz was a sergeant.

[Sart he/him]

I was going to suggest that Mraize might actually be from First of the Sun, since his whole hunter aesthetic would fit will with it, but apparently he's from Thaylenah, as per Peter's words.

[Borio Singaldi he/him]

So, my thoughts on everything in order of reading:

 

Chapter 22

Chicken, huh? I did not expect that, and I laughed a bit when reading it. Also, my theory behind the nature of the chicken is...

Spoiler

It's just a chicken. No need to overthink it.

With all these spelling errors I see... let's just hope they're diff rent by the time the book comes out.

So Ialai isn't a Ghostblood -- bye-bye, theories.

That point on morality Mraize made was really cool in a philosophical way.

Helaran... I think Mraize just clickbaited Shallan. What does he know?

Amaram's back. The realness just got more legit.

Also, I looked at the epigraph after reading the chapter, and I think it's safe to assume the author isn't Jasnah -- bye-bye, theories.

 

Chapter 23

The author's not a poet, huh? Not sure who this excludes.

This Kaladin chapter felt kind of uneventful and ordinary to me, with nothing of much note. Until the voidspren appeared and spoke to Kaladin. She intrigues me greatly.

Okay, so we don't know her name. Since she seems to be Syl's opposite so far, I am hereby calling her... Anerphlys.

 

Chapter 24

Nothing all that much on Evi. I expected more time to be set apart for thinking about her. But I guess for now she'll just be brushed aside in this chapter like Elhokar. Seriously, where is he? I'd also completely forgotten about him until I read this thread.

So Dalinar's bond with the Stormfather is not what caused the memories to return -- bye-bye, theories.

I know all the rest of you are worried about Taravangian being at Urithiru and all, but honestly, my greatest worry is something I haven't noticed anyone else mention: HE'S CLEAN-SHAVEN NOW! HE GOT RID OF HIS MAJESTIC DUMBLEDORIAN BEARD! That was one of the things I liked about him. I can't imagine our dear, dastardly Mr. T without a beard.

Anyway, I'm really not sure what to think of this new Dustbringer, other than that I think she's the real deal when it comes to being a Radiant. Her allegiances, though...

This Tezim guy is bold and intimidating on a very high WOW level. The theory of him being a Herald (specifically Ishar) is one I won't exactly agree with, but won't deny either.

Honestly, I am really really really hoping Taravangian will change his ways and that he and Dalinar can become a dream team of world-savers. I don't want to see him as the villain who will ruin everything for the Knights Radiant.

 

I hunger greatly for the next few chapters...

[Frostlander]

Had a thought based on the conversation with the "voidspren" that added more questions about whether it's actually a voidspren. In the excerpt, she says:

Quote

“My kind aren’t nearly as inclined toward discrimination as yours. If you can carry a spear and take orders, then I certainly wouldn’t turn you away.” She folded her arms, smiling in a strangely knowing way. “The final decision won’t be mine. I am but a messenger.”

This reminded me of one of Dalinar's visions when he's talking to Nohadon looking down on the ruins of the desolation

Quote

“Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 849). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Obviously, discrimination and discernment are different, but if someone tends to like Honorspren and Windrunners, they might describe them as discerning. If the spren or order thinks of Honorspren as haughty and picky, they might choose discrimination. If the other spren is aware of Syl, it's possible that she's messing with Kaladin. I'm not sure what she means by being a messenger, though it's possible that her sprentype is sending scouts or something. I honestly don't know if I believe this, but there's so many different ways this can play out, it seemed worth throwing in the mix.

[IllNsickly he/him]

On the Dustbringer.

I haven't cracked the book to double check, but weren't the Dustbringers mentioned immediately preceding the "Alas, not all Spren are as discerning as Honorspren" Quote in Dalinar's Vision of Nohadon?

If not... Pardon, I beg.

I guess that I wouldn't be surprised to find that several Orders Radiant aside from the Skybreakers didn't follow the same lines and allegiances. And to find out that they had a more ambiguous nature.

I don't doubt that she is Radiant. I am sure that something in The Diagram pointed Taravangian in almost the perfect direction to find a Proto with favorable moral tendencies. Where does she stand and how much influence does Taravangian have over her is what I am most curious about.

[Pattern he/him]

 

Spoiler Sixth of the Dusk:

Spoiler

 

On 17.10.2017 at 3:10 PM, What's a Seawolf? said:

I know it's just a chicken, but walking around with a bird on one's shoulder reminds me explicitly of certain other ability granting avians...

Haha, I am 16 hours too late commenting on this. That was my very first thought with the strange behaving "chicken". It also seems to react quite sapient when Shallan gets agitated.

So why does Mraize carry an Aviar? They protect the mind from being influenced from outside, in a place slowly filling with Radiants this is certainly a useful feature.

 

 

On 17.10.2017 at 3:27 PM, Overlord Jebus said:

What an odd epigraph...

Hmm, I considered it a typo and edited it away...
Any thoughts? Typo or not?

Edit: The webpage from today also has edited away the double epigraph. No more "Dalinar remembered —From Oathbringer, preface".

On 18.10.2017 at 1:12 AM, maxal said:

Here are my thoughts so far on the three new chapters. This week, they will start with a rant...

I hate reading the story within this serialized manner  It gives me the impression it is slow paced as each week I hope the denouement I have been dying to read will happen and, each week, it doesn't. This is getting infuriating  If I had the books into my hands, I'd be done reading it  I feel the reading format we are constrained to forces me to be unfair towards the story and I hate it 

So there, rant over, now back to the chapters 

Chapter 22

I am not surprised it is Shallan, anyone else would have broken the pace. The meeting didn't go as I expected. I was disappointed with Ialai: she sounded neither cunning, nor manipulative, nor dangerous. A grieving woman needing to be chaperon by Mraize as if she were a child. 

Adolin did well: I expected him to trip onto his own legs in front of the "most dangerous woman in the world", but nope. He did good. He did not fall into her traps and his earnests surely shed away doubts Ialai might have had towards him.

Fiery Adolin has fire whenever someone attacks his family. He would never let anyone bad mouth or attack them so long as he is standing. As always, it makes me wonder if there is anyone who'd be willing to do the same for him?

He thinks he will ruin it... Adolin never been defeatism until now.

Still, I think Ialai was thinking of Adolin the whole time with her whitespine story. I also think she is thinking of him when she claims a soldier disobeyed and killed Sadeas thinking to do good. She has to know a regular soldier would never dare such a ploy. She has to suspect Adolin even if his behavior did not hint towards any guilt.

I was annoyed we missed some of the conversation in between Adolin and Ialai just so Shallan could talk with Mraize  He wants her to keep on her investigation... Of course, he knows about her previous "investigations".

And thus Shallan and Adolin's story arc part ways: Adolin can go back to the background, the story arc was taken away from him  The lack of pay-off for WoR's cliffhanger remain sa disappointment for me, as a reader, unless it finally happens, but I keep feeling the story was stolen from Adolin and given to Shallan. 

The supernatural theory is confirmed: there are no copycat murderer, just a weird city. Shallan will uncover it.

Ialai and Sadeas were not Ghostbloods: this would have been interesting. I'm a bit disappointed in Ialai not turning out to be a "super villain".

Helaran is back into the equation. I expected him to be broached with Kaladin, but I expected it to be a minor plot point, not something sounding so decisive.

As some suspected, Shallan is way too distracted by herself and her "problems" to focus on supporting Adolin. Nothing bad happened in the meeting, but it goes back to my previous point: Adolin is sinking into the background.

Amaram being tossed into the equation could be interesting, if it brings back the narrative onto "Who killed Sadeas?".

So the chapter ends and Adolin still did not confess nor give clear indications with respect to his guilt, Shallan still did not piece it together. Sigh.

Chapter 23

Kaladin was actually interesting this week  The Voidspren is taking a Syl-like appearance in order to taunt Kaladin into joining forces with them. All this time most readers thought it was Adolin Odium would go for, but no. Kaladin's hatred of the ruling class combined with his high sympathy for those looking "weak" and "abused" has made him the perfect victim to prey on.

Am I the only one who thinks the nice, abused, grieving Parshendis is a ruse to snare Kaladin? It feels like a horror movie where the good guy gets welcomed into this weird city, he starts to like the people only to realize later they are monsters manipulating him?

I get it now. I don't trust them. I don't trust this yellow spren and I think Kaladin joining forces with them would be a mistake.

Fly away Kaladin!

Chapter 24

More Dalinar playing politics: I never find those chapters to be the most interesting  So nobody wants to ally themselves with Dalinar, predictable. I guess we needed all of those chapters to come to this conclusion, now what will he do? Seems like taking away Adolin's Plate to buy Iriali's support will certainly happen.

I am also annoyed at the complete lack of inter-action in between Dalinar and his sons: it is as if they had disappeared from his life all together. How can he be so selfish to think him forgetting his wife is just about him? Can't he share ONE thought for the boys who lost not only their mother, but also their father's memories of her to fill out theirs?

I think it is odd how everyone is always thinking of Jasnah whereas in WoR, after she died, nobody was thinking about her...   This is something readers commented upon in WoR.

Taravangian is clearly manipulating Dalinar in thinking he lost his wit. He has a plan and it can't be good.

DUSTBRINGER! Ah this was great. While I don't trust Matala, I was pleased to see on more Radiant: one who isn't within Dalinar's camp.

On 17.10.2017 at 5:41 PM, Nymeros said:

Shallans chapter bored my. Mraize and his parrot do not interest me. I would have been happy with this being a pure Adolin chapter.

I share your pains  Bring back the murder story and focus it on Adolin, he's the one hiding something, not Shallan doing more investigation. I want the secret to come out 

Lets make a rant chorus.

Well, Ialai was a bit disappointing, though she could be playing Adolin subtly. Bringing Amaram and Helaran into the stew in one chapter definitely makes me think Kaladin should stay a bit longer with the Voidspren and the Parshmen.
Did I mention I find Mraize's chicken very interesting? Totally worth the disruption of the Ialai-Adolin conversation. That chicken does behave strangely. Av-Av-Av...

Kaladin's story arc I found absolutely boring this week, until the Voidspren made her appearance. And let's be honest, Kaladin was often refered to as "hateful" in WoR, so an affinity of Odiumspren to Kaladin does not surprise. It might become interesting how close he stays to his Oaths when baited by the Voidspren. Will we get a furious and jealous Syl next week?

- Some more ranting about the serial release - in one month we will be reading the whole book (or have read it already)

The Parshmen being quite peaceful as a ruse? I don't think so, the Voidspren couldn't have known that Kaladin would follow exactly their group. Except it is really good at seeing the future. And the caravans went missing, implying they were attacked by Voidbringers. Perhaps you are on to something...

Taravangian playing Dalinar? I don't think so. We know that his intelligence varies randomly from day to day. He just has a day of low intelligence and high compassion. That is why he is always looking at Adrotagia for confirmation and explanations.
In the long game, Taravangian is certainly playing or trying to use Dalinar. But not on this particular day, here he is just smart enough not to admit to all his crimes. He is close to doing it though...

I don't see the murder investigation being taken away from Adolin. Shallan is to chase out the dark thing from Urithiru. Adolin coming up with a cover-up of him killing Sadeas still stays, although the copycat murders are done by something different (it does not have to be the same as the darkness, the twistedness of Urithiru). I expect there to be more chapters with those two together.

As we steadily walk towards the climax of part one, it might be time for some mating now...

Edited October 20, 2017 by Pattern
Added spoiler tags