[OB] The Girl Who Looked Up

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

10 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

@OrangeJedi if you want to delete a post just change it to

Edit: Post deleted

and nothing else (you can do this right? I saw someone else do it)

Well, it's me trying to delete a post haha, but I just gave it a try. A lot has changed in my long absence.

[StormingTexan he/him]

I want to say that this in-world story and the scene with Shallan's lightweaving is one of the reasons I love Brandon's writing so much. This scene played out out in my head like a movie (or play). The story is haunting for some reason too. 

[Aleksiel]

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

So is it possible that the story is entirely factual? The girl managed to trap the stormfather, a spren, in a gem, and bring Stormlight and the storms across whatever barrier the wall represents?

It's most likely not entirely factual, but metaphorical like Fleet's story mirrored what happened to Tanavast.

A perfect place with stormlight sure sounds like the SR and the wall could be symbolic barrier between realms. Of course, the story has many different interpretations and I think more than one are valid. In one way it relates to Shallan and in another - to something ancient.

[The Sovereign]

On 10/24/2017 at 1:19 PM, The Sovereign said:

The revelation at the end that the girl (and her people) were the enemy/badguys/darkness/etc. made me think of the Wundersail story from WOK which ended up being an allegory for Szeth's killings as a Truthless. I suspect I am missing a part here but I get the impression that this is an allegory for the secret that broke the Radiants and eventually the Radiants will discover that the Humans are the problem, not the Listeners.

Pretty big OB Spoiler:

Edited November 17, 2017 by The Sovereign

[TheWadehart he/him]

So I was wondering, with the revelation that humans were not native and that a place had been made for them (Shinovar?), was this a story about humans looking over to the east of the mountains?

[Brgst13]

I had another thought (spoiler for Liar of Partinel):

Could the girl be Yolish?  Fain life surrounds villages, walls to keep it out, etc.  Seems to fit much better than Elantris.

Also could this be related to Threnody?

[ZenBossanova]

The story reminds me of the story in Patrick Rothfuss's books, called, 'The Boy who Stole the Moon'. 

[Rahhb]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:21 AM, Wreith said:

 

This was actually my first thought. Not that he was the original one to tell Shallan the story, but that he was the last shadow and was tweaking her lightweaving, adding detail.
As I read, it just didn't seem to me that the shadow that calmly walked from the room matched the image of the creature cramming itself through a hole in the wall.

I considered that it might be Hoid leading Shallan to what she needed to see.

 

It's probably not true, but it was my first impression.

Well, here's the thing it seems nobody has mentioned yet. I got super excited when I came across this chapter because HOID is in the engravings at the beginning of the chapter.  But in my initial readings of it, it seems that he's not there -- that *thing* is, instead... unless, as @Wreith has said, perhaps it's HOID helping her find the thing...

In the past, it has been noted that either HOID is in the chapter when this masked man appears or at least people looking for Hoid.  So, where is Hoid here? 

[Rahhb]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:39 PM, Aon Ati said:

I just have one question for is forum. Who told Shallan this story? It was given to her in a play but this seems to be an important story about Roshar's history. And who do we know who has a knack of telling important stories in a metaphorical way?

I like the idea that perhaps Hoid told her the story, or somehow was affiliated with the story being told to Shallan.  It's probably not right given the timelines, since it doesnt appear that Hoid knew Shallan before he met her at the Fair in one of the WOR flashbacks...

[Bacon]

I suspect that it actually has to do with the actual origins of the storms. But of course, it would have been a community of Parsh, not Humans

Or, Shinovar was totally walled off when humans originally came to Roshar. The wall might have been made of stone and they were forbidden to climb it, which would help to explain why they see it as sacred.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Bacon

[insert_anagram_here]

18 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

The story reminds me of the story in Patrick Rothfuss's books, called, 'The Boy who Stole the Moon'. 

The story with the Natan queen (the one that says why the Natan people have blue skin) reminded me of 'The Boy who Stole the Moon'. And I think it was mentioned twice in OB.

54 minutes ago, Rahhb said:

Well, here's the thing it seems nobody has mentioned yet. I got super excited when I came across this chapter because HOID is in the engravings at the beginning of the chapter.  But in my initial readings of it, it seems that he's not there -- that *thing* is, instead... unless, as @Wreith has said, perhaps it's HOID helping her find the thing...

Actually, I did mention in some other thread (can't remember now sorry) that the girl's hair are white when she's climbing the wall. And somewhere it is said that Hoid has white hair even though he dyes it all the time. (Coppermind wiki)

Edited November 28, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
added the white hair bit

[Rahhb]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Actually, I did mention in some other thread (can't remember now sorry) that the girl's hair are white when she's climbing the wall. And somewhere it is said that Hoid has white hair even though he dyes it all the time. (Coppermind wiki)

Ah, I do think I noted that. 

Did we see Wit/Hoid in the chapter? Or does the epigraph mean something other than Hoid?

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Nice catch @Rahhb about seeing Hoid in the chapter engraving.

I mentioned this previously on this thread as well, that I believe that Hoid is the Girl Who Looked Up, the fact that the girl's hair changes to white without Shallan intentionally changing it is very telling. I think that this is the Roshar specific retelling of the Cosmere wide myth of Adonalsium being taken from wherever he was, prior to the shattering, and I think that Hoid was the one who stole Adonalsium. On roshar they have changed taking the powers of all divinity into their local manifestation of Investiture, namely the high storms.

In the chapter 42 letter Epigraph it says:

Quote

Cephandrius, bearer of the First Gem,

etc.

Cephandrius is Hoid, and the First Gem, I believe was actually Adonalsium.

I actually asked Brandon at the Portland book signing if Hoid was the Girl who looked up, he didn't confirm or deny it, but he did look up sharply when I asked him (I thought he looked suprised).

[insert_anagram_here]

Also..

Quote

A vibrant red scarf grew around the girl’s neck, twin tails extending far behind her and flapping in a phantom wind. The players had made the scarf hang behind the girl using strings from above. It had seemed so real. 

Could that indicate a connection to Vasher as well?

[Rahhb]

21 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

....

I actually asked Brandon at the Portland book signing if Hoid was the Girl who looked up, he didn't confirm or deny it, but he did look up sharply when I asked him (I thought he looked suprised).

I didn't fully get your thoughts on Hoid being the GWLU before, but I am seeing it now.  Very fascinating theories here.  And definitely now makes me wonder how implicit Hoid might be in shattering Adonalsium in the first place.  I haven't read any of the Liar of Partinel or anything so there may be things I am obtusely missing, but this is pretty fascinating. 

I have thought all a long that Hoid was overall benevolent, trying to generally save the world(s) or at least the greater Cosmere from the destruction of Odium/other dark powers, yet he also has this ambition to gather the powers of investiture in different ways almost to become a Shard without taking up any of the powers directly like others have.

But now I wonder if he's been the one breaking into Grandma Adolnalsium's Shardic Cookie Jars for eons and eons  Just showing up and stealing some treats all along, letting things break behind him as he gleefully runs off to torment someone else.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

@Rahhb I'm inclined to believe that Hoid thought that this stealing of Adonalsium would be beneficial to humanity/sapient life in the Cosmere, but that just like in the story there were unintentional consequences (like the creation of Cosmere villains Ruin, Odium, possibly Ambition). One of the facts that we know about Hoid is that he can't intentionally hurt anyone (I don't know the exact nature of this constraint, but it's mentioned a couple of times). He's also known by the Horneaters as the trickster god (Rock mentions seeing him coming out of the pool on the Horneater's peak which has been speculated to be one of (or the only one of) Cultivation's perpendicularities). Both of these facts strongly suggest that his role is to beguilingly help out the greater cosmere, while tweaking everyone's nose in the process.

There are probably other theory pages on this, but here's a pretty solid case for Hoid's goal being the reconstruction of Adonalsium:Hoid's goal is...,  and here's another good one with some informative WoBs: Hoid will become the new Adonalsium.

We also know that Sigzil was Hoid's apprentice until Hoid declared him a full worldsinger. We also know that Hoid visited the Terris on Scadrial (also catalogers of ancient religions). My guess is that his incessant world hopping is an attempt to piece together the best way to reforge Adonalsium, an attempt to visit all of the planets in the Cosmere to see how each divine intent manifests and shapes a world and culture, and use these insights to create a better god.

[Diomedes]

On 28.11.2017 at 0:39 AM, TheWadehart said:

So I was wondering, with the revelation that humans were not native and that a place had been made for them (Shinovar?), was this a story about humans looking over to the east of the mountains?

This seems to be the common interpretation of the story so far. But what if the place, where the girls comes from, actually refers to Braize Ashyn.

This would explain why it is dark all the time there and why there is no stormlight. On Braize  Ashyn there is no Stormlight and Honor`s intent was not situated there. So it was both literally dark, because there was no stormlight and metaphorically dark because people had only Odium as a shard, which makes for a pretty dark society. 

The girl was a human, who travelled from Braize Ashyn to Roshar and somehow brought Stormlight and Honor`s intent with it. 

This also ties up a different thing. Braize Ashyn was destroyed by surgebinding, which requires Stormlight. Somehow humans on Braize Ashyn must have been able to bind surges there.   

Edited December 5, 2017 by Diomedes

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

While rereading OB now, I have another small grain of proof to add to my speculation that Hoid is the girl who looked up, and that the story of the Girl who looked up is about Hoid Stealing the first Gem, Adonalsium.

During the trip through Shadesmar, in Chapter 97 Riino, Kaladin notices the following pictures in Riino the lighthouse keeper/fortune seer room:

Quote

One wall contained a picture of of people kneeling before a bright white mirror. Another was a cityscape at dusk, with a group of low houses clustered before an enormous wall that had light glowing beyond it.

The 2nd picture with a wall between the shadowed city and the glowing light seems like an obvious reference to the Wall in the story of the Girl Who Looked up. The other picture could possibly be our first on screen view of Adonalsium pre-shattering. I could see the great god of the Cosmere, who transcends space and time, being contained in a single brilliant pane of glass (like a mirror) and a shattered mirror would naturally cleave into what the participants of the shattering would refer to as "shards".

In the same chapter, after Kaladin's mystical trip through the fortune teller's glass to find Dalinar in his need, Azure is talking to Kal about fortune tellers on Nalthis and says this:

Quote

"Even the gods of my land catch only glimpses of the Spiritual Realm—and in all my life, I've only met one human I believe truly understood it. And he might actually be a god. I'm not sure."

"Wit," Kaladin said. "That man that brought you the metal that protected your Soulcaster."

She nodded.

I think that it's no mere coincidence that Hoid is brought up so soon after Kaladin saw those pictures, and I think that's pretty awesome that we might have a description of what Adonalsium looked like right before the shattering.

Another grain of sand for this proof is that Riino is a very unusual character. He is Shin in appearance, practices a form of magic in the Cognitive Realm that is forbidden on Roshar, he uses the Selish "Merciful Domi" when he is surprised, knows about Nalthis based Heightenings and knows about Surgebinding. After Kaladin uses the Rii Oracle he says this:

Quote

"How? Impossible. Unless...You're Invested. What Heightening are you?" He squinted at Kaladin. "No. Something Else. Merciful Domi...A Surgebinder? It has begun again?"

So Rii has knowledge of 3 separately invested worlds Nalthis, Sel, and Roshar and has most likely been able to extend his life with Nalthian breath (the quote above implies that he's able to see that Kaladin doesn't have a bio-chromatically enhanced aura) or with some other form of investiture because he says surgebinding has begun again (implying that he might have been around pre-recreance).

Hoid, a very strange and singular character, coming up in a casual conversation in another strange and singular character's house, Riino, who also happens to have pictures hanging on his wall that look suspiciously like they might be depicting events that happened prior to the shattering of Adonalsium.

All of these are small points, but I think added together they heavily imply that Hoid is the Girl Who Looked up.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typo, like usual

[bdoble97]

Both tellings of the story in Oathbringer arw some of my favorite Parts in the book it was so visual to me. I definitely think it's a foreshadow of even greater truth coming in the later books maybe book 4 who knows. Maybe the wall represents the device that helps humankind be transported to roshar in the listeners gods original gods constructed the wall that keep us out. The idea of the listeners being corrupted humans I don't really like it all to be honest with you I like the twist that the humans are the board Bringers in the listeners we're never evil and were just defending themselves it makes it much more interesting in my opinion

Edited December 8, 2017 by bdoble97

[Valigus]

I’m almsot certain it’s about ash, I put a post about this theory but it makes too much sense