When One Dor Opens

[+Aletus he/him]

 

 

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim) ODIUM'S_SHARD

Can magic systems from one world work in any given other?

BRANDON SANDERSON

For some, it will take quite a bit of work, but it's possible to get them each to work. Sel's magics are regional, and so they are going to be tough. Scadrial's magics are the easiest.

 

This is the basis for my thought process in creating this thread. It has always struck me as strange, if interesting. 

To the lovely curators who have been around longer than I have, please let me know if I'm pulling old weeds, so to speak. 

 

When One Dor Opens,

Sel is a pretty darned unique location in the Cosmere, there's a whole heap of interesting tidbits about it. They are more cosmere aware than most others, yet it's extremely difficult to travel to or from via shadesmar, and apparently the magic systems would potentially be able to function off world, like the other magic systems around the cosmere, though only through effort. 

 

Sel's Magic is Regional

This is best demonstrated through Elantris' geographical features - as we saw. When things changed, IE the Reod, the glyphish based magic stopped working, as it used Elantris like a focal point or reference, or there's probably a better word. 

 

All known forms of accessing the Dor, including AonDor, Dakhor, Forgery, and ChayShan seem to pull from an artistic or maybe more accurately, aesthetic manipulation.

• AonDor, using the glowing Aon's to produce the desired result
• Dakhor, while unknown for the most part, seems to use twisted, or deformed bones/structure
• Forgery, much like a less glowy Aon - using a physical medium to 'channel' the desired effect
• ChayShan, also relatively unknown, uses body forms, demonstrated as a form of Tai-Chi/Yoga/Ketan

IIRC, The further a practitioner of AonDor traveled from Elantris, the weaker the magic. I believe that we can safely presume that it is much the same with the other forms, to different and varying degrees. My reasoning behind that stands as thus:

• AonDor is the subsystem that manipulates external elements the most (healing, fireballs, etc)
• Dakhor, and ChayShan are more about personal enhancement. 
• Forgery manipulates external elements as well as AonDor, but appears local as well, as Forged things don't appear noticeably elsewhere (but that would kind of be the point of a forgery)

Dakhor is the especially tricky element to that part of the theory, as the Monks from Elantris were quite dangerous due to the enhancements, even providing the distance from the monastery. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that the aesthetic manipulation is permanent, or at least mostly, due to the bone shaping. It's entirely possible that the closer they get to home, the nastier they get, as well. Speculation, on that part, to be honest. 

 

This also brings up an unplanned thought to my mind. The correlation between the apparent scope of the subsystems. 

• AonDor has a vast amount of possible effects, as well as a hefty knowledge base required to use it with mastery. 
• Forgery, like AonDor, effects both external and internal elements, via a physical and semi-permanent stamp. Also, like the AonDor, it requires a hefty knowledge base to use to great effect.
• Dakhor is mostly physical augmentation, mixed in with teleportation, which I argue is physical as well. It is also shown to be able to negate drawn Aons. 
• ChayShan - like Dakhor, is about physical augmentation, mental clarity and focus. As well as seeing without seeing. 

So we have two magic subsystems that effect a wide array of internal and external elements, and two which are more or less physical, and individual. 

 

Anyways, this brings us to the big unknown:

Focus!

 

Do Dakhor, ChayShan, and Forgery pull from a geographical focus, like AonDor pulls from Elantris? We know that the Dakhor, at least, still functioned after the Reod, so Elantris isn't the focus there, and likely isn't for the other subsystems. 

 

Without in-depth knowledge that we don't have, this is simply speculation. I had wished for even more information on Forgery than we got from Emperor's Soul. 

 

Regardless, I am on the ship that claims that beings Brandon said that they are regional - that they do, in fact, pull from a focus, geographical or otherwise - much in the same way that AonDor pulls from Elantris. 

 

Following that, on to the important stuff.

 

What would it take to use your specific Dor-knob on Roshar, or any other world?

 

Would such action require a regional focus on the new world, and the glyphs or stamp, or body movements/bone shaping  require adapting to the new focus?

 

AonDor's glyphs basically are a map - and had to have the new line added to function again. Just working off of this one subsystem, as we understand it best, my first thought would be as such:

 

For AonDor to work on Roshar, say - specifically in Alethkar, the entire system would have to be rewritten, so to speak - Aon would be the base, and outline the major features, and the modifiers would then take into account locations pertinent to the elements manipulated. Furthermore, the Dor's power would have to travel a long long way from Sel to Roshar, if that is a factor at all. 

 

This would, in my opinion, fit the description of 'difficult' as handed down by Brandon - as you would essentially have to remake each glyph to fit the region, thus any familiarity would go out the window. Think of how hard it would be for the poor Dakhor - having to retwist every bone. Lovely thoughts. 

 

Of course, the other possible method would include Shadesmar, in my opinion, which is another difficulty - beings the Dor is so blocked up that it makes it unsafe. 

 

 

Anyways, give me your two cents on this, poke any holes you like. I feel like most of this is fairly baseless on the speculation meter, as we don't know much of the other subsystems of Dor. 

Edit: Apologies for indicating that AonDor uses Elantris as a focus, Arelon is the proper focus.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Blackwood

[Shardlet he/him]

As a housekeeping note, I would point out that Arelon rather than Elantris is the geographic basis for AonDor.  Other than that, I agree that AonDor would have to be completely rewritten/rediscovered each new place you wanted to use it.  Similarly forging would have to be modified, especially the final symbol (which Shai notes that it resembles MaiPon).

[+Aletus he/him]

Thanks I realized that it was Arelon when i was finished, and added it as a note at the bottom, my computer is horrible so I decided to do that rather than go through and search and edit each one. 

 

Also thanks for pointing that out about Forging - I had forgotten that, good catch!

Edited February 21, 2014 by Blackwood

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

We've been talking about the mixing of Forging and Feruchemy in this thread here and the regional/use of Sel magics on other worlds is under discussion there as well. 

 

A couple of thoughts on accessing the Dor and Devotion/Dominion:

• Those chosen as Elantrians seem to have been devoted to something before being taken by the Shaod (which is much like being snapped by the Mists now that I think about it. A mechanism set up by a Shard that continues to exist even when the Shard is no longer being Cognitively driven). i would say that Chayshan is of Devotion as well. 
• Dakhor seems pretty obviously about Dominion over the body and others. 
• Forging I'm not sure if that is more Dominion (making something into something else or something its not) or Devotion (getting an object to be the best of itself that it could have been/could be). 

While you're on Sel, I wonder really how "regional" the magic systems are. For AonDor, it seems like the Aon's work about as well in Teod as they do in Elantris pre-chasm line. So I wonder if they actually do weaken the further they are from Arelon or if that is just Raoden's perception in that one scene in Teod? I know that region defines how someone learns to access or is disposed to accessing the Dor, but I wonder if the amount of power is really relative to distance from their "home" region. 

 

As to Forging, could an Elantrian learn to Soulstamp? Would they have access to AonDor in a different soulstamped identity? Agh, brain hurts!

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

INTERVIEW: Feb 16th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Viper (Paraphrased)

VIPER

Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.

VIPER

So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's correct.

VIPER

Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's very interesting, isn't it?

Power is determined by distance from the home region.

[Two McMillion he/him]

 

• Forging I'm not sure if that is more Dominion (making something into something else or something its not) or Devotion (getting an object to be the best of itself that it could have been/could be). 

 

Random thought: I wonder if Forging could be like Feruchemy, a power of balance, not specifically arising from either shard.

[Kadrok she/her]

You get an upvote just for the thread title.

 

I too have considered that an entirely new language would be required to get Aon Dor to work... but the plates involved in the Soul Forging we see in Emperor's soul gave me a couple of ideas:

 

Could an Elantrian make a plate (or something similar using Aon Dor, like an amulet) that would essentially act as a translator, interpreting the Aon's the Elantrian is tracing (provided they contained the proper mark to trigger the plate-reading) and translating them for the proper region? Making the amulet would still require figuring out what all the symbols are for that region, but they wouldn't have to practice tracing an entirely new language for each world... they'd just need to remember to include the symbols telling their Aon's to refer to the amulet particular to that region.

 

Basically, you'd learn the Aon's for Alethkar, or whatever, and then make a "phrase book" amulet.

 

Alternatively, could an amulet be made than acts as a relay, conveying the power directly from the Elantris region, without the need to research a new alphabet for every world/region?

Edited February 21, 2014 by Kadrok

[Swimmingly he/him]

You figure out a way to teleport energy, then you send very specific coordinates and a time to your buddy in Elantris. He makes it happen. Things explode. Or are healed

[Darkarma he/him]

This is why I think Hoid has so much potential in this area. He is aware of what the Cosmere used to be like before the shattering. He knows what Andonalsium used to be. Even shattered I think that he could figure out how to make things like the constellations act as the focus for any Sel based magic. Its more universal wouldn't have to really be relearned on each planet and given this is Hoid he could probably use his true name Midius as the focal point for the power somehow, especially if he's attained a lot of breaths, or better use his awakened sword as the source of his Sel based magic.

 

As long as he is with himself or his sword is, he'd never have to worry about reod like effects.

 

Though the Scepter might also be another candidate.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Darkarma

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

Random thought: I wonder if Forging could be like Feruchemy, a power of balance, not specifically arising from either shard.

Nah; there's only one power on Sel (the Dor), with multiple ways of accessing it. The going theory right now is that because, unlike Preservation and Ruin, the Intents of Devotion and Dominion are fairly close, so they meshed together into one magic system.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Nah; there's only one power on Sel (the Dor), with multiple ways of accessing it. The going theory right now is that because, unlike Preservation and Ruin, the Intents of Devotion and Dominion are fairly close, so they meshed together into one magic system.

However the method of accessing the Dor is a function of the Shards, possibly in different balances; we believe Elantris and AonDor was a mostly Devotion system, while Dakhor was mostly Domination. So, while the Dor is of both Domination and Devotion, the individual systems seem to be derived from a certain balance of the Shards. Perhaps it is therefore true the Forging is of both Domination and Dominion equally; we just don't know.

[18th Shard he/him]

Forging gets weaker the farther from MaiPon it is.

[A Joe in the Bush]

If you use massive Terraforming to Make a life sized Replica of Arleon on Sel lets say, Would the Aons there work at full power?