Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) I wanted to put onto paper screen a few thoughts that have been rolling around my head, mostly about the different beliefs put forth by Szeth in Stone Shamanism, but also reinforced by how Listeners treat their dead. I want to bring up some of the relevant source material first. Szeth, WoK Quote : They were on the king’s floor, two levels up, surrounded by rock walls, ceiling, and floor. That was profane. Stone was not to be trod upon. Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 23). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. And yet they thought nothing of walking on stone or using Stormlight for everyday illumination. They ignored the spirits of things that lived around them, and they ate whatever they wanted on any day they wanted. Strange. So strange. And yet this was his life. Recently, Szeth had begun to question some of the prohibitions he had once followed so strictly. How could these Easterners not walk on stone? There was no soil in their lands. How could they get about without treading on stone? Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damnation him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness. Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.. Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 445). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Stone. It was sacred. He never thought about that anymore. How could anything be sacred to him, now? Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 719-720). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 4 The Shin in WoK Quote "And you give us metal for them! Metal that bears no stain of broken rock. A miracle.” Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 435). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. I think with this in mind, we can at least make some kind of supposition that stone can be analogous to metal or gemstones in some way. I'm not sure I'm entirely in the "Odium is invested in stone" camp yet, but I think that at least stone can capture spiritual connection. We have a couple pieces of evidence for this. First off, I want to point out a section from Szeth above. "His soul would be given to the stones upon his death." There's another piece of evidence from WoR. Quote The highest tower in the world, hidden in the tops of the mountains, was perfect for his contemplation. If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy. Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 708). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. He states that he is bound to an Oathstone. Up until very recently, I have been under the impression that Szeth does what he does from personal honor, but we don't know much about Stone Shamanism. I believe that his soul was literally bound to his Oathstone. There's this segment from Nalan post the battle of Narak Quote “My gods are the spirits of the stones,” Szeth whispered. “The sun and the stars. Not men.” “Nonsense. Your people revere the spren of stone, but you do not worship them.” ... “You did, and you died. Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties— both spiritual and physical— undone. You are reborn. Come along. It is time to visit your people. Your training begins immediately.” Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1063). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 1 This implies that if there was a bond made between him and an Oathstone, it would have been broken by his death. (I don't know how much of this would be different with the updates, I've got the originals.) Without Nalan's intervention, I assume whatever bond they might have placed between him and the stone would have trapped his soul in the stone for eternity instead of allowing him to move on to the spiritual realm. I think a similar effect manifests across Roshar, which is why it is profane to walk on stone. It's also why the Listeners want their dead to be left to the stones. I don't have enough information to conjecture why it might be beneficial to them or why they might have been led to think so, but the high concentration of invested souls in the souls of the stones outside of Shinovar and Urithiru can explain why it is cursed. It also explains Alethi death rites. Soulcasting for the lighteyes. Literally using magic to remove the body and transform it, casting the soul into something else. Burning for the darkeyes, which is just as fitting. When you pray to the almighty, you burn a prayer. In order to prevent your soul from being invested in the stones, you need to soulcast it or burn it. I also think that Tien has a sense for these sorts of things, and that not all invested stone is necessarily negative. Kaladin repeatedly is cheered up by the stones that Tien gives him. There's been a buzz around about the strata being mentioned, and Tien is one of those to mention strata. Quote “Not just a rock,” Tien said, taking out his canteen. He wetted his thumb, then rubbed it on the flat side of the stone. The wetness darkened the stone, and made visible an array of white patterns in the rock. “See?” Tien asked, handing it back. The strata of the rock alternated white, brown, black. The pattern was remarkable. Of course, it was still just a rock. But for some reason, Kal found himself smiling. “That’s nice, Tien.” He moved to hand the rock back. Tien shook his head. “I found it for you. To make you feel better.” “I …” It was just a stupid rock. Yet, inexplicably, Kal did feel better. Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 247). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Kaladin, look at this rock,” Tien said. “It changes colors when you look at it from different sides.” ... “Mother, look at this,” Tien said. Late-afternoon sunlight streamed through the leeside window, bathing the table. “From this side, the rock sparkles red, but from the other side, it’s green.” “Perhaps it’s magical,” Hesina said. Chunk after chunk of longroot plunked into the water, each splash with a slightly different note. “I think it must be,” Tien said. “Or it has a spren. Do spren live in rocks?” “Spren live in everything,” Hesina replied. ... “See,” Tien said from behind, “from this side it’s green. I don’t think it’s a spren, Mother. It’s the light. It makes the rock change. …” Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 539). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 8 Ok, so besides the immediate effects of Kaladin feeling better, I want to point out Hesina saying it's magic and a spren Nalan and Szeth mentioning the spren of the stones, and then also Tien mentioning the Light making the rock change. Edit: I found another piece of text, specifically pertaining to parshendi death Rites, to support the theory. Quote “He’s protective of the Parshendi bodies, gancho,” Lopen added. “Like he’d stab you a hundred times for moving one, sure.” “They’re all like that,” Sigzil said from behind. Kaladin turned, raising an eyebrow. “They’re allowed to care for their own dead; it’s one of the few things they seem passionate about. They grow irate if anyone else handles the bodies. They wrap them in linen and carry them out into the wilderness and leave them on slabs of stone.” Way of Kings Chapter 55 An Emerald Broam Edited October 31, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveLate Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I wanted to put onto paper screen a few thoughts that have been rolling around my head, mostly about the different beliefs put forth by Szeth in Stone Shamanism, but also reinforced by how Listeners treat their dead. I want to bring up some of the relevant source material first. Szeth, WoK The Shin in WoK 1 : I think with this in mind, we can at least make some kind of supposition that stone can be analogous to metal or gemstones in some way. I'm not sure I'm entirely in the "Odium is invested in stone" camp yet, but I think that at least stone can capture spiritual connection. We have a couple pieces of evidence for this. First off, I want to point out a section from Szeth above. "His soul would be given to the stones upon his death." There's another piece of evidence from WoR. 2 : He states that he is bound to an Oathstone. Up until very recently, I have been under the impression that Szeth does what he does from personal honor, but we don't know much about Stone Shamanism. I believe that his soul was literally bound to his Oathstone. There's this segment from Nalan post the battle of Narak 2 : This implies that if there was a bond made between him and an Oathstone, it would have been broken by his death. (I don't know how much of this would be different with the updates, I've got the originals.) Without Nalan's intervention, I assume whatever bond they might have placed between him and the stone would have trapped his soul in the stone for eternity instead of allowing him to move on to the spiritual realm. I think a similar effect manifests across Roshar, which is why it is profane to walk on stone. It's also why the Listeners want their dead to be left to the stones. I don't have enough information to conjecture why it might be beneficial to them or why they might have been led to think so, but the high concentration of invested souls in the souls of the stones outside of Shinovar and Urithiru can explain why it is cursed. It also explains Alethi death rites. Soulcasting for the lighteyes. 3 : Literally using magic to remove the body and transform it, casting the soul into something else. Burning for the darkeyes, which is just as fitting. When you pray to the almighty, you burn a prayer. In order to prevent your soul from being invested in the stones, you need to soulcast it or burn it. 4 : I also think that Tien has a sense for these sorts of things, and that not all invested stone is necessarily negative. Kaladin repeatedly is cheered up by the stones that Tien gives him. There's been a buzz around about the strata being mentioned, and Tien is one of those to mention strata. Ok, so besides the immediate effects of Kaladin feeling better, I want to point out Hesina saying it's magic and a spren Nalan and Szeth mentioning the spren of the stones, and then also Tien mentioning the Light making the rock change. Ok I numbered and bolded rather than cutting portions of quotes so that the context is still there. 1) I read this differently, to me it seemed the at the blessing was because no stone was broken to get the metal. No mining, no more collection, no smelting etc. IE no stone was harmed. The miracle was in the lack of harm to stone rather than the metal itself. 2) We have a WOB stating that it was only Szeths personal honor binding him to the Oathstone. I will find it and edit it in shortly. 3) MBSH showed us what happens at Death on Scadrial; are you saying that it works differently on each planet in the Cosmere? 4) very interesting observation, I had forgotten his obsession with stones. Edit: I can only find the 2 RAFO ones on heartland right now. It must be in the Reddit ones, and that is acting up on me right now. Edited October 26, 2017 by FiveLate Clarification 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant she/her Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, FiveLate said: 3) MBSH showed us what happens at Death on Scadrial; are you saying that it works differently on each planet in the Cosmere? It's possible that there's something like Threnody, where the inhabitants of the planet leave an imprint on the residual investiture, but I think what happens at death is pretty universal in the Cosmere. What happens on Scadrial seems to be almost automatic, so I can't imagine it's super different throughout Cosmere. Its the amount of Investiture in a person that keeps someone from moving immediately Beyond--its just that not every planet has a living Shard for the people to spend their last moments with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 56 minutes ago, FiveLate said: Ok I numbered and bolded rather than cutting portions of quotes so that the context is still there. 1) I read this differently, to me it seemed the at the blessing was because no stone was broken to get the metal. No mining, no more collection, no smelting etc. IE no stone was harmed. The miracle was in the lack of harm to stone rather than the metal itself. 2) We have a WOB stating that it was only Szeths personal honor binding him to the Oathstone. I will find it and edit it in shortly. 3) MBSH showed us what happens at Death on Scadrial; are you saying that it works differently on each planet in the Cosmere? 4) very interesting observation, I had forgotten his obsession with stones. 1: I don't think we disagree, I'm only interjecting the reason why they would count it as a blessing. 2: I wasn't aware of it, but that does necessarily mark a contradiction depending on how Brandon rationalizes that answer. If the stone shamans have that belief but it a false one, then technically, it would be only Szeth's honor holding him to that belief, whilst still be under a pseudo metaphysical duress. 3: Only because of Shardic intervention. The opposite of Returned. I'm not as well versed in this part of the theory as I could be so if I'm beating off the known path here set me right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveLate Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: 1: I don't think we disagree, I'm only interjecting the reason why they would count it as a blessing. 2: I wasn't aware of it, but that does necessarily mark a contradiction depending on how Brandon rationalizes that answer. If the stone shamans have that belief but it a false one, then technically, it would be only Szeth's honor holding him to that belief, whilst still be under a pseudo metaphysical duress. 3: Only because of Shardic intervention. The opposite of Returned. I'm not as well versed in this part of the theory as I could be so if I'm beating off the known path here set me right. You mean the same as Returned? Endowment directly interferes to return them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveLate Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alderant said: It's possible that there's something like Threnody, where the inhabitants of the planet leave an imprint on the residual investiture, but I think what happens at death is pretty universal in the Cosmere. What happens on Scadrial seems to be almost automatic, so I can't imagine it's super different throughout Cosmere. Its the amount of Investiture in a person that keeps someone from moving immediately Beyond--its just that not every planet has a living Shard for the people to spend their last moments with. Or a shard that would care to... Edit: meant this as an edit not a second post...sorry. Edited October 26, 2017 by FiveLate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 33 minutes ago, FiveLate said: You mean the same as Returned? Endowment directly interferes to return them... Opposite as in the opposite action from returning. Instead of interfering to allow a soul freedom it's interfering to imprison a soul in stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 Here's what you're looking for @FiveLate http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/59205-supanova-australia-june-2017/?do=findComment&comment=572876 Quote wlmkfi (paraphrased) If i was holding Szeth's Oathstone would he understand my commands? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Good question, I don't believe anyone has asked it before. No, an Oathstone doesn't have any magical properties whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveLate Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 @Calderis thanks...I hope the new Wobbinator likes kindle format more than Reddit and excel do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, FiveLate said: @Calderis thanks...I hope the new Wobbinator likes kindle format more than Reddit and excel do... Having seen the actual quote I'm actually a little more confident in this theory that I was before. Let me clarify a little bit and run it by you again. I think it still fits even knowing what we do from the WoB, because in this instance I'm not trying to suggest that the oath stone is a magically invested object that would be causing the effect. Instead I think that the oath is the magical part of that transaction and it would be because the shin hold the honorblade for the bondSmith's that it would be significant, mostly due to this quote from the epigraph on chapter 30: Quote "related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths." I don't know if this epigraph has been fully explained in my absence or not, but Shallan is showing electrum like abilities, so I don't think it's too far off base to postulate that BondSmith's could have some sort of oath keeping ability. As long as my assumption that stone can keep investiture in the same way as a dunce peer could keep Stormlight or that metal could keep a chemical feruchemical charge, especially spiritual connection, I think it could hold true. The stone shamans, if they understand how the powers and abilities work, have their law set up to be very strict and have severe punishment to prevent abuse of the honorblades. At one point, I don't want to look up the quote right now, Szeth nonchalantly mentions that stone shamans would have no problem reclaiming the honorblade on his death. Between that and Szeth's own mastery of his blade, it's at least the safe assumption that they have a working knowledge of the surgebinding abilities. All of this would still hold true with what Brandon is saying. Szeth can be magically bound to an item that has no magical properties while that items still can be able to hold investiture or spiritual connection. Edited October 27, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Finish out thoughts and fix talk to text typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I don't know if this epigraph has been fully explained in my absence or not, but Shallan is showing electrum like abilities, so I don't think it's too far off base to postulate that BondSmith's could have some sort of oath keeping ability. What Electrum like Abilities, did Shallan show ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 That's how I interpreted this selection from "The Girl Who Looked Up." Quote A dozen versions of herself, from drawings she’d done recently, split around her and dashed through the room. Shallan in her dress, Veil in her coat. Shallan as a child, Shallan as a youth. Shallan as a soldier, a happy wife, a mother. Leaner here, plumper there. Scarred. Bright with excitement. Bloodied and in pain. They vanished after passing her, collapsing one after another into Stormlight that curled and twisted about itself before vanishing away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: That's how I interpreted this selection from "The Girl Who Looked Up." Understood, well it's not related to Electrum really but to Gold...Anyway they are just illusions picked from her mind rather than a Realmatic effect in action like the gold/electrum are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Yata said: Understood, well it's not related to Electrum really but to Gold...Anyway they are just illusions picked from her mind rather than a Realmatic effect in action like the gold/electrum are I'll preface here by saying I'm definitely willing to agree to disagree, but I'm not entirely sure that it's just an affectation of her mental state, especially since it is mirroring effects seen in other magic systems. It's electrum and gold though, if it is a mirror, you're right there. As a child and as a mother so past and future. I'm heavily subscribed to the idea that there are special abilities to each order as a result of them mixing the powers. Soulcasting has been hinted to be more than just physical transformation. Just by sketching Shallan's changed the attitude of Bluth, as he is enamored with the idea of being a spearman. Take this quote from Pai: Quote "Does anyone among the Alethi elite care about the Almighty anymore? Sure, they curse by his name. Sure, they talk about the Heralds, burn glyphwards. But what do they do? Do they change their lives? Do they listen to the Arguments? Do they transform, recasting their souls into something greater, something better?” WoR Chapter I12 Lhan Soulcasting is the surge of transformation while lightweavers is illumination. Mixing the two it's not absurd to think you could get a similar effect to gold and electrum where she 'illuminates the possible transformations' in a similar way her sketches have done for others. Like I said, I'm definitely willing to agree to disagree here, but this is my interpretation here, and I think I've got enough evidence to support standing by it. I'll readily admit that your explanation is more plausible, but the idea that it's just her mental illness is also personally unpalatable to my tastes, so it could be bias in action for me as well. Edited October 27, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Correcting a detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant she/her Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Yata said: Anyway they are just illusions picked from her mind rather than a Realmatic effect in action like the gold/electrum are I think it's important to point out here that Shallan's Lightweaving in the situation in question is quite different from Electrum and Gold's effects. Electrum spreads out phantom images of what you might do through a brief glimpse into the future. Gold uses Connection and Identity to view what might have been. The source for these comes externally from the mistborn or misting using them--they are not a fabrication of the mistborn or misting's imagination, but an actual difference that they might have been, a Realmatic effect, as Yata put it. It's also important to note that while burning gold, the mistborn or misting's cognition is split--they are both people simultaneously. When Shallan used her Lightweaving to split apart, it was a more advanced form of what she had done in the chasm to save Kaladin from the chasmfiend. Note the text in question (I've bolded for emphasis): Quote A dozen versions of herself, from drawings she’d done recently, split around her and dashed through the room. Shallan in her dress, Veil in her coat. Shallan as a child, Shallan as a youth. Shallan as a soldier, a happy wife, a mother. Leaner here, plumper there. Scarred. Bright with excitement. Bloodied and in pain. This is a pretty clear indication that while Shallan's results might be similar to the results of Electrum or Gold, the actual magical process itself is wholly different. These other versions of Shallan are from her imagination. They are different versions of Shallan as to who she imagined she could be/have been, and her cognition and awareness does not travel with the phantom Shallans--because they are just illusions. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Soulcasting has been hinted to be more than just physical transformation. Just by sketching Shallan's changed the attitude of Bluth, as he is enamored with the idea of being a spearman. I've talked about this at length in another thread, but I don't think what's going on here with Bluth and Gaz and the other men is purely magic. Shallan is an artist. Her drawings were popular even far before she started utilizing them for Lightweaving. What Shallan did with Bluth was she told him a lie that was also a truth--Bluth wasn't the enamored with the idea of being a spearman, he was enamored with the idea of being a good and honorable man and a hero, rather than a tough who beat helpless slaves. What she did was inspire Bluth with her drawing of him--she showed him a man he could be, a man he wanted to be. And in the end, he was, but that was not because Shallan worked some mystical mind-changing magic on him--it's because she inspired him and then presented him with the opportunity to be that man. If you recall, when she and Bluth encounter the deserters and she convinces them to fight to save the caravan, Bluth whoops for joy because he can finally be the good man he has always wanted to be. And also, remember that all surgebinding-related magic requires stormlight for effect. Each magic system has a triggering mechanism. There was no stormlight usage when Shallan sketched Bluth. As for the rest of your theory, I think you have some interesting ideas. There are some holes in it that have been pointed out, but there's also some solid speculation that, if you combine with the story in "The Girl Who Looked Up", the mentions of the Shin invasions, etc. might point to the Shin having a relation to Odium, but that is purely speculation on my part. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) On 10/27/2017 at 9:51 AM, Alderant said: I think it's important to point out here that Shallan's Lightweaving in the situation in question is quite different from Electrum and Gold's effects. Electrum spreads out phantom images of what you might do through a brief glimpse into the future. Gold uses Connection and Identity to view what might have been. The source for these comes externally from the mistborn or misting using them--they are not a fabrication of the mistborn or misting's imagination, but an actual difference that they might have been, a Realmatic effect, as Yata put it. It's also important to note that while burning gold, the mistborn or misting's cognition is split--they are both people simultaneously. First off, a big mea culpa. I think part of the problem is I'm internally mixing the effects of malatium and electrum up. Sorry for that. As an aside, have we ever seen anyone on screen use electrum and duralumin? I wonder if we might see something similar to Allomantic gold. "They are both people simultaneously." I think this reinforces my point. Shallan isn't Shallan when she "splits" she's actively trying to become Radiant, a casting of herself, but in the same moment, she splits into dozens of versions of herself. Quote When Shallan used her Lightweaving to split apart, it was a more advanced form of what she had done in the chasm to save Kaladin from the chasmfiend. Note the text in question (I've bolded for emphasis): Quote " . As she ran, she pulled a string from her pocket and tied her hair back, becoming Radiant. Radiant would know what to do if she caught this person. Can a person look that much like a shadow? “Pattern,” she shouted, thrusting her right hand forward. Luminescent fog formed there, becoming her Shardblade. Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. Luminescent wisps trailed behind her, and she felt it chasing her. She charged into a small round chamber and skidded to a stop. A dozen versions of herself, from drawings she’d done recently, split around her and dashed through the room" I don't think we can conclusively say she was creating a distraction. This obviously isn't conscious. She wouldn't end it when she gets to the point where it's dangerous, and she wouldn't have every single one different, and the only 'real' Shallan be the one armed with a sword. It doesn't add up I also don't think the drawings are necessarily relevant. Her lightweaving has been restricted up to this point to what she has drawn, her other abilities could be restricted by similar mental blocks. "her cognition and awareness does not travel with the phantom Shallans" I disagree. Brandon makes a point of describing the emotional and mental state twice. While that could be observed by physical clues, it would be more readily apparent to Shallan if she was sharing their consciousness. "A happy wife...in pain." I don't think there's enough there to conclusively say either way, but she's definitely taking on the role of someone else, and that split her into dozens of different versions of herself. Quote Shallan is an artist. Her drawings were popular even far before she started utilizing them for Lightweaving. What Shallan did with Bluth was she told him a lie that was also a truth--Bluth wasn't the enamored with the idea of being a spearman, he was enamored with the idea of being a good and honorable man and a hero, rather than a tough who beat helpless slaves. Would you mind looking linking me the thread? I'd love to see the discussion. "Her drawings we're popular before she started..." Not in the instance of Bluth specifically, though this could be explained by him wanting to steal the picture and being nonchalant admittedly. Quote She smiled at the product, then held it up to Bluth as Tvlakv called the midday halt. Bluth glanced at the picture, but said nothing . He gave the chull a few whacks to stop it alongside the one pulling Tvlakv’s wagon. Tag rolled up his wagon— he carried the slaves, this time. WoR Chapter 17 A Pattern But, I want to tie this into your other point. Quote If you recall, when she and Bluth encounter the deserters and she convinces them to fight to save the caravan, Bluth whoops for joy because he can finally be the good man he has always wanted to be. And also, remember that all surgebinding-related magic requires stormlight for effect. Each magic system has a triggering mechanism. There was no stormlight usage when Shallan sketched Bluth. AsI said before, the drawing could be a pre-requisite for the Soulcasting to happen. She didn't use Stormlight when she drew, as you said, and he wasn't interested. Later on however, when she goes to recruit the deserters and Bluth as well, she is holding Stormlight, and suddenly, Bluth is incredibly interested in the drawing he has stolen, and takes her orders Quote She met his eyes in the near darkness, and he stopped. She knew that she was glowing softly; she could feel the storm within. “Do it.” She left him and walked to her wagon. “Bluth, turn this wagon around.” He stood with a sphere beside the wagon , looking down at something in his hand. A sheet of paper? Surely Bluth of all people didn’t know glyphs. “Bluth!” Shallan snapped, climbing into the wagon. “We need to be moving. Now!” He shook himself, then tucked the paper away and scrambled into the seat beside her. He whipped at the chull, turning it. “What are we doing?” he asked. “Heading south.” “Into the bandits?” “Yes.” WoR Chapter 20 The Coldness of Clarity If Shallan can access Lightweaving from drawing she has done before, and assuming I'm not incorrect about Soulcasting being connected to Shallan's drawings, I don't see a good reason we can't assume a similar latent effect with Soulcasting. She draws the paper, plants the seed in Bluths mind using conventional inspiration, then when the time is right, uses Stormlight and Soulcasting to trigger the change and inspire him to recast his soul into something greater. I feel like I've done a fair job rebutting your points with passages from the story. Do you see any flaws in my logic? Edited October 31, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant she/her Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I feel like I've done a fair job rebutting your points with passages from the story. Do you see any flaws in my logic? Yes, several. But your arguments are well-thought out so I'll bite. 3 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: "They are both people simultaneously." I think this reinforces my point. Shallan isn't Shallan when she "splits" she's actively trying to become Radiant, a casting of herself, but in the same moment, she splits into dozens of versions of herself. You're misinterpreting my statement. When a person burns gold, that person thinks as both individuals simultaneously. We saw this with Vin and Miles. When Shallan "split," she had already adopted the Radiant persona, which she "became more fully" using Stormlight, meaning she adopted the Radiant appearance as well as the mental persona. If Shallan had truly split in the matter of Allomantic Gold, a you're implying, each and everyone of those images would have had a viewpoint in the text, as well as Radiant and Shallan, but that's not the case. It's Radiant only, because Radiant is still Shallan, and all the others are illusions. 11 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I don't think we can conclusively say she was creating a distraction. This obviously isn't conscious. She wouldn't end it when she gets to the point where it's dangerous, and she wouldn't have every single one different, and the only 'real' Shallan be the one armed with a sword. It doesn't add up Um. Creating a distraction is exactly what she is doing. It's actively conscious. She's in a situation where she is being chased and so she is using her powers to create multiple, temporary images of herself to misdirect the enemy long enough for her not to be caught by surprise and meet the enemy head-on. It's called tactics, and it's really smart on Shallan's part. 19 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: "her cognition and awareness does not travel with the phantom Shallans" I disagree. Brandon makes a point of describing the emotional and mental state twice. While that could be observed by physical clues, it would be more readily apparent to Shallan if she was sharing their consciousness. "A happy wife...in pain." I don't think there's enough there to conclusively say either way, but she's definitely taking on the role of someone else, and that split her into dozens of different versions of herself. Again. Shallan is an artist. She doesn't simply draw people, she invests in them, imagines who they are, how they feel. Most importantly, these are all things Shallan imagines about herself, so she doesn't just draw them, she invests a little piece of her soul (non-cosmerically) into them. I do the same thing when I work on my art. It's just something you do as an artist. If I were doing what Shallan was doing, I would probably describe them the same way. 22 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: AsI said before, the drawing could be a pre-requisite for the Soulcasting to happen. Except it's not. The ship? Also, Jasnah doesn't draw to Soulcast. 24 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: She didn't use Stormlight when she drew, as you said, and he wasn't interested. If he wasn't interested, why did he steal the drawing? 24 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Later on however, when she goes to recruit the deserters and Bluth as well, she is holding Stormlight, and suddenly, Bluth is incredibly interested in the drawing he has stolen, and takes her orders Again...by this point he already has stolen the drawing, so he's not suddenly incredibly interested in it by her holding the Stormlight. He takes her orders because he believes that what Tvlakv is ordering is wrong and she's appealing to his sense of honor. 26 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: If Shallan can access Lightweaving from drawing she has done before, and assuming I'm not incorrect about Soulcasting being connected to Shallan's drawings, I don't see a good reason we can't assume a similar latent effect with Soulcasting. She draws the paper, plants the seed in Bluths mind using conventional inspiration, then when the time is right, uses Stormlight and Soulcasting to trigger the change and inspire him to recast his soul into something greater. Honestly, this is your best argument. And I'm not denying that Soulcasting and Lightweaving could be used together in ways we don't realize. But I am arguing that this is simply not the case here. You quoted Pai--also remember here that "re-casting" and "soulcasting" are likely common Vorin expressions, and the use of "re-casting" does not necessarily imply surgebinding. It's a metaphor for changing yourself to the Almighty's desires, and Pai is very, very religious. More so than most ardents. As I said in the other thread, I refuse to ascribe magic as the source of all a character is able to accomplish. To say that the changes Shallan effects here is due purely to magic is do undermine the arc of her character here--she is trying to change and become a more confident person, and more self-sure person, using Jasnah's words and example. Jasnah said in WoR that it was not power or station that made others respect her, it was how she carried herself and how she presented herself. That was the lesson Shallan was exercising here, and the stormlight and Lightweaving was augmentation to that effort. Finally, here's the link to the thread: But seriously. Have a cookie. You're making me work for this. Spoiler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Alderant said: If Shallan had truly split in the matter of Allomantic Gold, a you're implying, each and everyone of those images would have had a viewpoint in the text, as well as Radiant and Shallan, but that's not the case. It's Radiant only, because Radiant is still Shallan, and all the others are illusions. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm implying here. I'm not saying 'soulcasting+Lightweaving=aGold.' If this is the specific hangup let me go at this from a different angle. We have the precedent from aGold and aaMalatium that it is possible to use investiture to see the versions of yourself/others that could have been. Now I can definitely understand why you would have a problem with "magic is the reason why Characters can do everything they can do." It's trite, it makes characters useless, and it doesn't make for an interesting story. I had never looked at it from that perspective here, but rather, the magic is possible because of what the characters are able to do. Here, Shallan's natural talents in seeing what someone's potential could be, an innate aMalatium/gold in her personality(non magical) allows her to draw out what those images would be if she happened to be a misting. She draws on that knowledge to then change people later using magic and Soulcasting. Radiant isn't just an act, Radiant is a fully formed persona, as is Veil, and Shallan is having trouble separating them. It wouldn't make sense for her to split and be them at the same time with her magic set, but if she's unable to control her mental state and separate out her different personas from each other, it makes sense they could start to fight for 'dominance' when her prime personality 'Shallan' gives up control and recasts herself as someone else. 2 hours ago, Alderant said: Um. Creating a distraction is exactly what she is doing. It's actively conscious. She's in a situation where she is being chased and so she is using her powers to create multiple, temporary images of herself to misdirect the enemy long enough for her not to be caught by surprise and meet the enemy head-on. It's called tactics, and it's really smart on Shallan's part. First, your tone is straying slightly towards being directly abrasive and confrontational. I don't think I've done the same so far, but if I have I apologise. I am enjoying our discussion and I don't want to give the impression I'm not. I would be interested to see your argument with cited passages from the text. I'm going to quote the whole passage then make my argument. Quote Something shadowy moved down the corridor. Shallan gave chase, lips drawn to a sneer, letting Stormlight rise from her skin and illuminate her surroundings. As she ran, she pulled a string from her pocket and tied her hair back, becoming Radiant. Radiant would know what to do if she caught this person. Can a person look that much like a shadow? “Pattern,” she shouted, thrusting her right hand forward. Luminescent fog formed there, becoming her Shardblade. Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. Luminescent wisps trailed behind her, and she felt it chasing her. She charged into a small round chamber and skidded to a stop. A dozen versions of herself, from drawings she’d done recently, split around her and dashed through the room. Shallan in her dress, Veil in her coat. Shallan as a child, Shallan as a youth. Shallan as a soldier, a happy wife, a mother. Leaner here, plumper there. Scarred. Bright with excitement. Bloodied and in pain. They vanished after passing her, collapsing one after another into Stormlight that curled and twisted about itself before vanishing away. Radiant raised her Shardblade in the stance Adolin had been teaching her, sweat dripping down the sides of her face. The room would have been dark but for the Light curling off her skin and passing through her clothing to rise around her. Empty. She’d either lost her quarry in the corridors, or it had been a spren and not a person at all. 1. She's chasing it, not being chased. 2. Contextual clues don't speak to me of being actively conscious. "Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. Luminescent wisps trailed behind her, and she felt it chasing her." The first action is written as if deliberate, the second, she feels the Stormlight chasing her. It doesn't lend itself to the interpretation that Shallan is taking an active role in shaping it. When she comes to a stop, the images form and keep going. 3. Going on the assumption it is tactics. This is the worst use of tactics I could imagine for the situation, and your argument did not address the points I made in that regard. In this situation, the tactical advantages of a distraction would be: a: keep your enemy distracted - the images dissipate before she knows the room is empty. b. Hide yourself - none of the images are copies of herself. c. Present a bigger threat (a la huge Kaladin) - with the possible exception of the soldier, none of the images would be armed. Radiant has a shardblade and is the biggest threat. d. Maintain your advantage throughout the confrontation - not only do the images dissipate before she realizes it's empty, they dissipate before she has even readied her sword. If this was an active tactical decision by Shallan, it is the worst use of her powers I've seen to date and she needs to retire Radiant for failing to think tactically. I would definitely disagree that Shallan was being smart if it was conscious. The person she was chasing was watching her beforehand, so any illusions that weren't exact copies of herself would be useless anyway. 2 hours ago, Alderant said: Except it's not. The ship? Also, Jasnah doesn't draw to Soulcast. Shallan didn't draw everything on the stage to Lightweave, and she was in Shadesmar speaking directly with the soul of an object in that instance directly using one of the surges, not a theorized power that exists by combining two of them. Jasnah is able to soulcast without touching things, I don't think that automatically means Shallan can do the same. Also, Pattern has specifically said Shallan didn't used to have to draw to Lightweave, as I believe it's a result of her own mental restrictions. When I said it's a pre-requisite, I meant that it's a self imposed restriction Shallan has placed on herself by her own perceptions as with Lightweaving. It would make perfect sense if the block is just on Lightweaving that Soulcasting wouldn't be affected,but the combination of the two would be, since adding in the block would necessitate the sketch to Soulcasting where there wasn't a need before. Quote If he wasn't interested, why did he steal the drawing? A better question is when did he steal the drawing. I think he stole it right then. Quote “You are lies and truth ,” Pattern said softly. “They transform.” “What does that mean?” It was hard to sketch with only the light of Salas to see by, but she did her best. “You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.” “Soulcasting?” Shallan said. “I didn’t Soulcast anyone.” “Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm.” Shallan Quote finished her prayer, then held it up, noticing that a previous page had been ripped out of the notebook. Who had done that? She couldn’t burn the prayer, but she didn’t think the Almighty would mind. She pressed it close to her breast and closed her eyes, waiting until the shouts from below quieted. WoR Chapter 20 the Coldness of Clarity He was standing next to the wagon where her notebook was stored with the paper and sphere. The next time Shallan pulls out her notebook is when she noticed it is missing. Is the Stormlight has nothing to do with his interest, why does the timeline match up so perfectly, and why is the missing picture talked about immediately following Pattern's comments? Quote Again...by this point he already has stolen the drawing, so he's not suddenly incredibly interested in it by her holding the Stormlight. He takes her orders because he believes that what Tvlakv is ordering is wrong and she's appealing to his sense of honor. As listed above, I think I pinpointed the exact moment he stole the picture, when she sucked in Light during the bandit attack. It's the only time he had the opportunity. If you can find anything in the chapter to support your points here I'll reconsider, but i don't think you're basing this on evidence from the book, but rather on your own assumptions, which is not convincing. "Honestly, this is your best argument." Just a quick note here about my debate style, I like to do the evidence avalanche where I start with the weakest evidence and keep building with stronger all building towards my conclusion. Most of the time it's all working towards a singular point, so saying this is my best argument is to ignore that all of my arguments, for the most part, are intended to be a small part of a whole working towards the conclusion. Quote You quoted Pai--also remember here that "re-casting" and "soulcasting" are likely common Vorin expressions, and the use of "re-casting" does not necessarily imply surgebinding. It's a metaphor for changing yourself to the Almighty's desires, and Pai is very, very religious. More so than most ardents I'm a little confused here. Vorin beliefs originated from the Knights Radiant and the Heralds. When you say it's a common expression of the Vorin religion, I don't know what you're arguing, because that common expression has its roots from back when the people who actually knew what they were doing knew how to soulcast. Soulcasting is one of the only surgebindings that still exists and the Vorin church is the one who controls it. Can you clarify? Quote 2 hours ago, Alderant said: But seriously. Have a cookie. You're making me work for this. Thank you for that. I felt like I was getting mixed signals and that I was beginning to frustrate you. I understand that I can be difficult to debate with sometimes because I refuse to budge unless I am satisfied with the counter argument, but I've really enjoyed this discussion and I don't want anyone else to be miserable when I'm having a good time. If it does get to a point where you feel that you're starting to get frustrated or you no longer want to continue, please just let me know. I'm always happy to agree to disagree and the last thing I want to do is turn this from a friendly enjoyable discussion to a troll war comment section on YouTube. Edited October 27, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant she/her Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: First, your tone is straying slightly towards being directly abrasive and confrontational. I don't think I've done the same so far, but if I have I apologise. I am enjoying our discussion and I don't want to give the impression I'm not. ... Thank you for that. I felt like I was getting mixed signals and that I was beginning to frustrate you. I understand that I can be difficult to debate with sometimes because I refuse to budge unless I am satisfied with the counter argument, but I've really enjoyed this discussion and I don't want anyone else to be miserable when I'm having a good time. If it does get to a point where you feel that you're starting to get frustrated or you no longer want to continue, please just let me know. I'm always happy to agree to disagree and the last thing I want to do is turn this from a friendly enjoyable discussion to a troll war comment section on YouTube. I do tend to get heated in confrontational situations (such as debate). That's on me, so I'm sorry for coming across as abrasive. It's a flaw of mine. I didn't mean to come across that way. I really enjoy this debate as well, and it's fun to have someone that can counter my arguments well with examples from the text and not just supposition and inference. So if I get heated, just let me know. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Just a quick note here about my debate style, I like to do the evidence avalanche where I start with the weakest evidence and keep building with stronger all building towards my conclusion. Most of the time it's all working towards a singular point, so saying this is my best argument is to ignore that all of my arguments, for the most part, are intended to be a small part of a while working towards the conclusion. Just so you know, most of this paragraph flies over my head. I'm not familiar with debate structures or methods. I was never in debate (probably because I have a hard time keeping a cool head, lol), so when I say it's your best argument, it's because I take each point individually and address it. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: If you can find anything in the chapter to support your points here I'll reconsider, but i don't think you're basing this on evidence from the book, but rather on your own assumptions, which is not convincing. I don't have the book near me at the moment (I'm not home) but I will look it up tonight and give you a better, more concrete argument, but until then let me address what I can without text. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: 1. She's chasing it, not being chased. You're right. That's a misread on my part, so I will have to change my argument to match. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: 2. Contextual clues don't speak to me of being actively conscious. "Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. Luminescent wisps trailed behind her, and she felt it chasing her." The first action is written as if deliberate, the second, she feels the Stormlight chasing her. It doesn't lend itself to the interpretation that Shallan is taking an active role in shaping it. When she comes to a stop, the images form and keep going. Here's the text that tells me it's conscious: 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: As she ran, she pulled a string from her pocket and tied her hair back, becoming Radiant. Radiant would know what to do if she caught this person. Can a person look that much like a shadow? “Pattern,” she shouted, thrusting her right hand forward. Luminescent fog formed there, becoming her Shardblade. Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. She consciously pulls her hair back. That's sign number 1 she's getting ready to switch over to Radiant. Sign number 2, she actively summons her Patternblade. Contextually to then say that her use of stormlight in this situation is involuntary doesn't make sense, as she is "gearing up" per se for battle. I read this as she is letting the Light escape, actively forming the image for Radiant in her head. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: 3. Going on the assumption it is tactics. This is the worst use of tactics I could imagine for the situation, and your argument did not address the points I made in that regard. In this situation, the tactical advantages of a distraction would be: a: keep your enemy distracted - the images dissipate before she knows the room is empty. b. Hide yourself - none of the images are copies of herself. c. Present a bigger threat (a la huge Kaladin) - with the possible exception of the soldier, none of the images would be armed. Radiant has a shardblade and is the biggest threat. d. Maintain your advantage throughout the confrontation - not only do the images dissipate before she realizes it's empty, they dissipate before she has even readied her sword. If this was an active tactical decision by Shallan, it is the worst use of her powers I've seen to date and she needs to retire Radiant for failing to think tactically. I would definitely disagree that Shallan was being smart if it was conscious. The person she was chasing was watching her beforehand, so any illusions that weren't exact copies of herself would be useless anyway. So you were right. This was not an attempt at distraction, since she is chasing, not being chased. And after rereading this segment carefully, I came to the conclusion that we might both be reading this incorrectly. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: She charged into a small round chamber and skidded to a stop. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: A dozen versions of herself, from drawings she’d done recently, split around her and dashed through the room. ... They vanished after passing her, collapsing one after another into Stormlight that curled and twisted about itself before vanishing away. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: The room would have been dark but for the Light curling off her skin and passing through her clothing to rise around her. So the sequence of events was: 1. She became Radiant. 2. She entered a small round chamber. 3. She split a dozen illusions from herself and had them run through the room. Presumably, since this is a circular chamber, they ran through the middle and then around the circumference, or vice versa. 4. As they passed her they disappeared. Combine these facts together and I think we can deduce, logically, that she was using them for light, to possibly reveal where in the room it was hiding, because the very next line was: 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Empty. She’d either lost her quarry in the corridors, or it had been a spren and not a person at all. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Radiant isn't just an act, Radiant is a fully formed persona, as is Veil, and Shallan is having trouble separating them. It wouldn't make sense for her to split and be them at the same time with her magic set, but if she's unable to control her mental state and separate out her different personas from each other, it makes sense they could start to fight for 'dominance' when her prime personality 'Shallan' gives up control and recasts herself as someone else. Radiant and Veil are fully formed personas, not personalities. There is a very big difference between the two. A persona is an act--it is a fully realized identity that a person assumes for a given role. From Merriam-Webster: 1:a character assumed by an author in a written work 2a: plural personas an individual's social facade or front that especially in the analytic psychology of C. G. Jung reflects the role in life the individual is playing 2b :the personality that a person (such as an actor or politician) projects in public 3plural personae :a character in a fictional presentation (such as a novel or play) —usually used in plural Shallan isn't having trouble separating the two. She knows full well when Veil or Radiant are called for. The problem is that she is using them to run from her problems. And because they are personas, acts, they by definition cannot gain control, because they are still Shallan. I read on your profile that you were an actor? If so, you should understand what the implications of what I am saying without me having to go into detail, but if you need me to, I will take the time later to type out what's going on--to my view, and it's not DID. 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I'm a little confused here. Vorin beliefs originated from the Knights Radiant and the Heralds. When you say it's a common expression of the Vorin religion, I don't know what you're arguing, because that common expression has its roots from back when the people who actually knew what they were doing knew how to soulcast. Soulcasting is one of the only surgebindings that still exists and the Vorin church is the one who controls it. Can you clarify? When an idea or procedure becomes so engrained in the minds of a populace, its use frequently becomes a metaphor for other things. Yes, recasting obviously comes from soulcasting, and yes, it has its roots with people who knew how to soulcast. However, the concept of soulcasting is so perpetual throughout the Vorin people (there are Soulcasters, soulcasters, soulcasting, etc.), means that the act of changing can be easily metaphorized with "re-casting", especially considering that the Alethi soulcast their dead (which was an interesting point in your first theory about the Shamans). I've always read this segment from Pai as religious fervor, in much the same way that people in Born-Again cultures use the same term. They haven't been "born" a second time, but the phrased is used as a metaphor for a monumental change in their lives. Pai isn't lamenting that the people aren't soul-casting their lives into better ones, since that is the exclusive purview of the Church, she's lamenting the wickedness and baseness of the Alethi and the fact that the Ardents, rather than encouraging the Alethi to be better (Do they transform, recasting their souls into something greater, something better?) are accepting bribes and allowing the Alethi (especially the Queen) to live as they please with minimal punishment from the Ardentia. Does that make a little more sense? 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Shallan didn't draw everything on the stage to Lightweave, and she was in Shadesmar speaking directly with the soul of an object in that instance directly using one of the surges, not a theorized power that exists by combining two of them. Jasnah is able to soulcast without touching things, I don't think that automatically means Shallan can do the same. Also, Pattern has specifically said Shallan didn't used to have to draw to Lightweave, as I believe it's a result of her own mental restrictions. When I said it's a pre-requisite, I meant that it's a self imposed restriction Shallan has placed on herself by her own perceptions as with Lightweaving. It would make perfect sense if the block is just on Lightweaving that Soulcasting wouldn't be affected,but the combination of the two would be, since adding in the block would necessitate the sketch to Soulcasting where there wasn't a need before. Finally, it's my turn to be confused. Are we talking about Soulcasting or Lightweaving? The original argument was that the drawings were a prerequisite to Soulcasting, and in your paragraph here you reiterated and proved my point, then went on to contradict your own statement. Can you clarify so I have a better understanding of what you're getting at? 'Cause I'm not opposed to the idea that the two can be mixed. I believe I've said that already. So until I can lay my hands on WoR, I think that's all I can address at this moment. Edited October 27, 2017 by Alderant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Alderant said: That's on me, so I'm sorry for coming across as abrasive. It's a flaw of mine. Water under the bridge Thanks for being so open about it. 1 hour ago, Alderant said: so when I say it's your best argument, it's because I take each point individually and address it. Basically, when I try to form my arguments, I try to build towards a unifying theme with the weakest evidence first gradually building upward. Think if it like building a fire. You want your smallest fuel, the tinder first, then build on top of it with small sticks, the kindling, then the fuel. The tinder Sparks which then catches flame to the kindling which eventually sets flame to the fuel. (You can just ignore this if you want, it's really just a side not to help you navigate my arguments in the future.) 1 hour ago, Alderant said: She consciously pulls her hair back. That's sign number 1 she's getting ready to switch over to Radiant. Sign number 2, she actively summons her Patternblade. Contextually to then say that her use of stormlight in this situation is involuntary doesn't make sense, as she is "gearing up" per se for battle. I read this as she is letting the Light escape, actively forming the image for Radiant in her head. I don't disagree with anything here, but it also stops right where I think her conscious actions stop. I don't think her forming Radiant was not conscious, but the other images were. I completely agree that everything up to that point is written with a very clear emphasis that the actions are consciously taken. But the next line is the one that I think demonstrates she's lost conscious control of her Stormlight. Quote Light escaped her lips, transforming her more fully into Radiant. Luminescent wisps trailed behind her, and she felt it chasing her. (Emphasis mine) We've never seen an instance where a character has felt like Stormlight has chased them before, and to feel it instead of commanding it is more passive, giving me the impression it's not a conscious choice. 1 hour ago, Alderant said: So the sequence of events was: 1. She became Radiant. 2. She entered a small round chamber. 3. She split a dozen illusions from herself and had them run through the room. Presumably, since this is a circular chamber, they ran through the middle and then around the circumference, or vice versa. 4. As they passed her they disappeared. Combine these facts together and I think we can deduce, logically, that she was using them for light, to possibly reveal where in the room it was hiding, because the very next line was: I don't think this is quite accurate. Quote She charged into a small round chamber and skidded to a stop. A dozen versions of herself, from drawings she’d done recently, split around her and dashed through the room. ... They vanished after passing her, collapsing one after another into Stormlight that curled and twisted about itself before vanishing away. Radiant raised her Shardblade in the stance Adolin had been teaching her, sweat dripping down the sides of her face. The room would have been dark but for the Light curling off her skin and passing through her clothing to rise around her. Empty. She’d either lost her quarry in the corridors, or it had been a spren and not a person at all. The sequence isn't quite as you presented. Sequentially it is correct, but narratively it is out of order. (I feel like I am not communicating my meaning well there.) She becomes radiant, she feels the light chasing her, she charges into the room and stops, the images "split around her and dash through the room" but then are described to have "vanished after passing her." She readies her blade, she notices the room would be dark except for her Stormlight. She notices the room is empty. There's a few things I want to draw attention to here. First, the passive way that the images are written. It's not written that "Shallan split off a dozen images" but that "a dozen versions of herself...split around her and dashed through the room." I disagree with your interpretation on their movement as well, but the wording here is so hard to decipher I don't think that we can blame either of us for that. I'm just going to walk you through my logic for how I'm interpreting it. Shallan is being chased by the light, runs into the room and stops, as she enters the room, the images split off and run through the room, through meaning following the same general path Shallan took until the images pass her and disappear. Because the light was chasing her, it stands to reason the images would be following her too. I don't think they would be used for light because light isn't mentioned until after they are gone, the next line after they disappeared was Shallan readying her sword and mentioning that her Stormlight is the only source in the room. Quote And because they are personas, acts, they by definition cannot gain control, because they are still Shallan I think that's the problem and that's what I'm getting at, she's using Soulcasting to make it so it's not an act. Quote Shallan stopped in place, suddenly frantic. “My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right?” “What?” he said. “I talked to Balat over spanreed,” Shallan said, hand to her forehead. “But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories…” “Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?” She adopted Veil again, her pain fading. “Yes. Of course I can tell.” She started forward again. “Shallan,” Pattern said. “This is… mmm… there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don’t understand it.” “I just need to go deeper,” she whispered. “I can’t be Veil only on the surface.” Oathbringer Chapter 18 Double Vision Here she implies the problem is that Veil is just an act, and that if she can "go deeper" (cue inception sound effects) it will solve things. I think we are seeing the results of that attempt with Radiant. I want to take one of your points and work backwards for a minute. If Radiant is just an act to deal with her problems, then she shouldn't need magic in order to put it on. There's no reason for the Stormlight trigger if there's no magical transformation to her mind, and since Radiant isn't used in any way to fool someone, there's no good reason for traditional Lightweaving. And yet, she uses it here, and when she first creates Radiant, even though she has no intention on fooling Adolin. She says some very specific things in that chapter that are not about putting on an act and are about becoming a different person. Quote No. No, just be someone else. Hands shaking, she scrambled over and dug out her drawing pad. She ripped pages, flinging them out of the way to reach an empty one, then seized her charcoal pencil. Pattern moved over to her, a floating ball of shifting lines, buzzing in concern. “Shallan? Please. What is wrong?” I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place. “It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.” A high-pitched whine started to rise in the room, one Shallan didn’t immediately recognize as coming from the back of her own throat. Pattern’s words were like knives to her side. No, please. Just draw ... Could… could she be this woman? I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her. She stood up as the change took hold. Her heartbeat slowed, and she wiped the sweat from her brow, then calmly undid her safehand sleeve, tossed aside the foolish extra pouch she’d tied around her hand inside, then rolled the sleeve back to expose her still-gloved hand. Shallan refers to all of her characters in third person...and they refer to her in third person back. Quote Hey,” Adolin said. “That’s not bad.” “Shallan did spend quite a lot of time drawing you all.” There's no good reason someone's who's acting and is consciously aware of that act would refer to herself in the third person when talking to her fiance that I can think of. 1 hour ago, Alderant said: Does that make a little more sense? It does, thanks for the clarification. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I don't share your interpretation, but your argument is solid. 2 hours ago, Alderant said: Can you clarify so I have a better understanding of what you're getting at? 'Cause I'm not opposed to the idea that the two can be mixed. I believe I've said that already. Sure thing. So Shallan's Lightweaving has some sort of mental block that forces her to draw before she can use it. The idea of Soulcasting people into better versions of themselves has always been predicted on the fact that it's a mix of Soulcasting and Lightweaving. Because Shallan has a block on her lightweaving, it's irrelevant whether or not she can Soulcast without drawing, because as soon as she mixes in the Lightweaving, the new power, Soulcasting people, becomes subject to the same block as the Lightweaving, having to be drawn beforehand. (I tried to find the Pattern quote but couldn't, so I'm just going to post as is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant she/her Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Here she implies the problem is that Veil is just an act, and that if she can "go deeper" (cue inception sound effects) it will solve things. I think we are seeing the results of that attempt with Radiant. I want to take one of your points and work backwards for a minute. If Radiant is just an act to deal with her problems, then she shouldn't need magic in order to put it on. There's no reason for the Stormlight trigger if there's no magical transformation to her mind, and since Radiant isn't used in any way to fool someone, there's no good reason for traditional Lightweaving. And yet, she uses it here, and when she first creates Radiant, even though she has no intention on fooling Adolin. She says some very specific things in that chapter that are not about putting on an act and are about becoming a different person. That is a solid argument, and honestly the best one I've been presented with. I will concede your point on the magically induced nature of the personas. I definitely agree that she is able to dive deeper into them because of the Lightweaving. But this interpretation doesn't fully take into account all of the non-magical mental side-stepping and avoidance behavior she has exhibited. I'll explain more why in a minute (again, you'll have to wait for any textual quotes from WoR or WoK if I mention them). But first this: 8 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Shallan refers to all of her characters in third person...and they refer to her in third person back. This isn't entirely true. They don't carry on conversations with each other, and in quoting what you did following this, you neglected a crucial line that follows: Quote Too formal. Right. That was how Radiant would act, of course—but she could allow herself some familiarity. Jasnah had done that. This is, while under the Radiant persona, Shallan referring to Radiant as an act. Now for analysis on what's going on with Shallan (from my point of view). Shallan has a lot of trauma. I think we can agree without the need for quoted text that Shallan's truths prohibit her from burying the subject matter of those Truths and hiding it from her consciousness. I'm sure there's some element involving her Surgebinding at work that allows her to so totally compartmentalize her memories and "lock them away." We've seen her doing that almost since her introduction. In your working backwards, it seems you're using the assumption that Radiant's usage is for external use, as with Veil. I've always taken it to be that Radiant's usage is primarily internal--it's a mental sidestep around one of her Truths. She hasn't come to the acceptance of her most recent Truth regarding her mother and the Patternblade. Numerous examples for that in the text, so I'm not going to quote it. Let's look at the entire text of Radiant's creation here, because I feel like you're picking a specific piece of the narrative that fits your point, while ignoring the larger goings on. I'm going to spoiler it to help condense the vertical space, 'cause it's long. Spoiler Quote “I know,” she said, calming her nerves. “Yes, Pattern can become a Shardblade, Adolin. I don’t see what this has to do with anything. I can’t give it away.… Stormfather. You want to teach me how to use it, don’t you?” He grinned. “You said that Jasnah was a Radiant too. Women, gaining Shardblades. It’s weird, but it’s not like we can ignore it. What about Plate? Do you have that hidden somewhere too?” “Not that I know of,” she said. Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense. She fought against the sensation. “I don’t know where Plate comes from.” “I know it’s not feminine, but who cares? You’ve got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.” He took a deep breath. “I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he’s darkeyed. Well, he was. Anyway, it’s not so different from that.” Thank you, Shallan thought, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants. But she held her tongue. This was obviously an important moment for Adolin, and he was trying to be broad-minded. But… thinking of what she’d done pained her. Holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse. She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—” “Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.” He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within. “Mmmm,” Pattern said. “This is good. This needs to be done.” Shallan scrambled through the room to the small mirror she’d hung from the wall. She stared at herself, eyes wide, hair an utter mess. She’d started breathing in sharp, quick gasps. “I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.” Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another. Sweat trickled down Shallan’s face, running beside her eye as she stared at herself. What did she expect to see? The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension. Her every muscle grew taut, and the corners of her vision started to darken. She could see only before herself, and she wanted to run, go somewhere. Be away. No. No, just be someone else. Hands shaking, she scrambled over and dug out her drawing pad. She ripped pages, flinging them out of the way to reach an empty one, then seized her charcoal pencil. Pattern moved over to her, a floating ball of shifting lines, buzzing in concern. “Shallan? Please. What is wrong?” I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place. “It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.” A high-pitched whine started to rise in the room, one Shallan didn’t immediately recognize as coming from the back of her own throat. Pattern’s words were like knives to her side. No, please. Just draw. Veil. Veil would be fine holding a sword. She didn’t have Shallan’s broken soul, and hadn’t killed her parents. She’d be able to do this. No. No, what would Adolin do if he returned and found a completely different woman in the room? He couldn’t know of Veil. The lines she sketched, ragged and unrefined from the shaking pencil, quickly took the shape of her own face. But hair in a bun. A poised woman, not as flighty as Shallan, not as unintentionally silly. A woman who hadn’t been sheltered. A woman hard enough, strong enough, to wield this sword. A woman like… like Jasnah. Yes, Jasnah’s subtle smile, composure, and self-confidence. Shallan outlined her own face with these ideals, creating a harder version of it. Could… could she be this woman? I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her. She stood up as the change took hold. Her heartbeat slowed, and she wiped the sweat from her brow, then calmly undid her safehand sleeve, tossed aside the foolish extra pouch she’d tied around her hand inside, then rolled the sleeve back to expose her still-gloved hand. Good enough. Adolin couldn’t possibly expect her to put on sparring clothing. She pulled her hair back into a bun and fixed it in place with hairspikes from her satchel. When Adolin returned to the room a moment later, he found a poised, calm woman who wasn’t quite Shallan Davar. Brightness Radiant is her name, she thought. She will go only by title. Adolin carried two long, thin pieces of metal that somehow could meld to the front of Shardblades and make them less dangerous for use in sparring. Radiant inspected them with a critical eye, then held her hand to the side, summoning Pattern. The Blade formed—a long, thin weapon nearly as tall as she was. “Pattern,” she said, “can modulate his shape, and will dull his edge to safe levels. I shan’t need such a clunky device.” Indeed, Pattern’s edge rippled, dulling. “Storms, that’s handy. I’ll still need one though.” Adolin summoned his own Blade, a process that took him ten heartbeats—during which he turned his head, looking at her. Shallan glanced down, realizing that she’d enhanced her bust in this guise. Not for him, of course. She’d just been making herself look more like Jasnah. Adolin’s sword finally appeared, with a thicker blade than her own, sinuous along the sharp edge, with delicate crystalline ridges along the back. He put one of the guards on the sword’s edge. Radiant put one foot forward, Blade lifted high in two hands beside her head. So we start out here with Shallan coming to the realization that Adolin wants to teach her how to use a Blade. After this revelation, Shallan begins to panic. Like, full-blown panic attack, tunnel vision, hyperventilation, cold sweat, the full mile. She isn't ready to face the use of her Patternblade--the tool that killed her mother. Doing so causes her emotional anguish, and she's just thinking about summoning it. She doesn't want to summon the Patternblade, she wants to bury the memory deep and forget about it again, but her Truth won't let her. And even worse, she's terrified of breaking down in front of Adolin, so rather than face this situation. Now Shallan has proven quite capable of mentally sidestepping what she doesn't want to think about. And there may be something to do with her bond to Pattern in this, I won't discount that. But the text says first that she wants to "Be away", then she follows that up with "No, no you can be someone else instead, Shallan." Her first thought is to jump into the Veil persona, but that's a terrible idea. Not only would that clue Adolin that something's up, but it would make masquerading as Veil more difficult. So she does the next best thing. She begins sketching out a version of herself without the trauma. A version of herself a little more like Jasnah. (I know I'm being very tedious with summarizing what's going on, but I am getting to my point. You have your ways to help people arrive at conclusions, I have mine.) So Shallan draws out this alternative version of herself, and when she breathes out the Stormlight and becomes Radiant, she is able to mentally sidestep her trauma. She can set it aside, because the role she has adopted doesn't have that trauma. She's escaped. She's good. Now she has to figure out how this role would act, so she adopts a weird, more formal speech pattern ("shan't"?) and summons Pattern. This is very akin to what Tyn taught her to do in WoR--in order to make a believable lie, you have to "become" the lie. It's not just about the accent, it's about the posture, the attitude, the persona. After Adolin re-enters the room, Shallan's under the guise of Radiant, but the very first thing that is said is this: Quote Shallan glanced down, realizing that she’d enhanced her bust in this guise. Not for him, of course. She’d just been making herself look more like Jasnah. Later on, she says "Shallan drew you" as Radiant, but this is part of the mental sidestepping. She's both trying to figure out this persona while at the same time attempting to distance herself from the trauma--Radiant doesn't have Shallan's trauma. So my point through all of this, is that Radiant, unlike Veil, is a persona created for the purpose of dealing with her Patternblade. Shallan can't do that, but with a bit of mental jiggery-pokery, she can as Radiant. Over the next bit of the chapter, we see that Shallan freely switches in and out of Radiant without any problems or drawbacks, and even Pattern comments later on: Quote “Well?” Veil asked, turning to the wall, where Pattern hung. “Mmm…” he said. “Good lie.” “Thank you.” “Not like the other.” “Radiant?” “You slip in and out of her,” Pattern said, “like the sun behind clouds.” “I just need more practice,” Veil said. Yes, that voice sounded excellent. Shallan was getting far better with sounds. Later on after that: Quote After a short time walking, Shallan found she needed to say something more. “Pattern. Do you remember what you said to me the other night, the first time… we became Radiant?” “About dying?” Pattern aske d. “It may be the only way, Shallan. Mmm… You must speak truths to progress, but you will hate me for making it happen. So I can die, and once done you can—” “No. No, please don’t leave me.” “But you hate me.” “I hate myself too,” she whispered. Here she's under the guise of Veil and she still thinks of herself as Shallan. So we have two points here: 1. Radiant was created to deal with the Patternblade. 2. Shallan still thinks as herself while under the persona of Veil or Radiant. My third point of this is what you brought up: Shallan referring to the personas in the third person. To address this, I'm going to point to acting. When a person is learning how to play a character, one thing they often do is refer to that character as though they were a real person. They try to get inside that character's head, think of how they would act in different situations, all to thereby create a more authentic and believable performance. I believe this is what Shallan's doing. Under this line of thought, comments like this, while in persona, make more sense: Quote Veil was a woman who didn’t giggle when she got drunk, or whine, fanning her mouth when the drink was too hard for her. She never acted like a silly teenager. Veil hadn’t been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family. Shallan does this with both Radiant and Veil. There is no evidence apart from feeling chased by the stormlight to support that these are proto-personas at work. And it's quite plausible, though your argument is good on this chasing point, that in the heat of the moment she feels like that stormlight is propelling her forward through her chase. 59 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: There's no good reason someone's who's acting and is consciously aware of that act would refer to herself in the third person when talking to her fiance that I can think of. And just to show I'm not ignoring this comment, the reasoning is internal--it's part of that shoving away of her traumatic thoughts. For Shallan, that's reason enough. I have to go now. Feel free to reply to what I've said and if further explanation is necessary, I'll give it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Alderant said: Feel free to reply to what I've said and if further explanation is necessary, I'll give it. For the most part I feel both that I've got a solid understanding of your viewpoint and that it's based on a well reasoned and logical assessment of the situation. I think we might be approaching the point where we'll be forced to agree to disagree. I can definitely see where you are coming from and that your points have merit, it just isn't quite enough to sway me. I do have a few quibbles though. 1 hour ago, Alderant said: This is, while under the Radiant persona, Shallan referring to Radiant as an act. Act here is a verb, not a noun. It's used a synonym with behave. "That was how Radiant would behave." I don't disagree with most of your analysis on the internal usage of Radiant, but I do think that's where the problem comes from. I do want to say that your arguments have convinced me that Veil is exactly as you say. There's been no trouble of this sort with veil. 1 hour ago, Alderant said: Over the next bit of the chapter, we see that Shallan freely switches in and out of Radiant without any problems or drawbacks, and even Pattern comments later on: Pattern's comment though is that Radiant is not a good lie for that reason, she's slipping between them as if she can't tell the difference. Three chapters later she has to ask if she killed her brothers and Pattern asks her if she can tell the difference between the lies and says "there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself." Ten chapters later, we see the weirdness with the Stormlight I described. i think it's significant to also note that Adolin is there as a touchstone, but the first time she forms Radiant alone is when the alleged trouble starts. Using the acting metaphor, Adolin is there to break the fourth wall and remind Shallan that she's herself. Radiant wouldn't understand that she's not acting like Shallan and being too formal and admonish herself for it without Adolin breaking the illusion Shallan is placing on herself, but even then, it rarely breaks. Spoiler Radiant stood in what felt like a very stiff pose, Blade held before herself in two hands. She’d only scraped Pattern on the ceiling two or three times; fortunately, most of the rooms in Urithiru had high ceilings. Adolin gestured for her to perform a simple strike, as they’d been practicing. Radiant raised both arms, tilting the sword, then took a step forward while bringing it down. The entire angle of movement couldn’t have been more than ninety degrees—barely a strike at all. Adolin smiled. “You’re catching it. A few thousand more of those, and it will start to feel natural. We’ll have to work on your breathing though.” “My breathing?” He nodded absently. “Adolin,” Radiant said, “I assure you, I have been breathing—without fail—my entire life.” “Yeah,” he said. “That’s why you’re going to have to unlearn it.” “How I stand, how I think, how I breathe. I have trouble distinguishing what is actually relevant, and what is part of the subculture and superstition of swordsmen.” “It’s all relevant,” Adolin said. “Eating chicken before a match?” Adolin grinned. “Well, maybe some things are personal quirks. But the swords are part of us.” “I know mine is part of me,” Radiant said, resting the Blade at her side and setting her gloved safehand on it. “I’ve bonded it. I suspect this is the origin of the tradition among Shardbearers.” “So academic,” Adolin said, shaking his head. “You need to feel this, Shallan. Live it.” That would not have been a difficult task for Shallan. Radiant, however, preferred not to feel things she hadn’t considered in depth beforehand. In this selection, Shallan refers to herself as Radiant in the narration five times and then even contrasts herself (Radiant) with Shallan as two separate individuals. Comparing it to Veil Chapters, I can't recall a single time she referred to herself as Veil in the narration. I chose a selection at random to illustrate this. Quote “You can escape?”Shallan whispered. “Don’t be stupid. Of course I can.” “Take this,”Shallan said, pressing a sheet of paper into Iyatil’s gloved freehand. “I wrote upon it the ramblings of the madman. They repeat without change. I saw Amaram sneak into the room; he seems to think these words are authentic, and he seeks a treasure the madman spoke of earlier. I will write a thorough report via spanreed to you and the others tonight.” Shallanmoved to pull back, but Iyatil held on. “Who are you really, Veil?”the woman asked. “You caught me in stealth spying upon you, and you can lose me in the streets. This is not easily accomplished. Your clever drawings fascinate Mraize, another near-impossible task, considering all that he has seen. Now what you have done today.” Shallanfelt a thrill. Why should she feel so excited to have the respect of these people? They were murderers. But storms take her, she had earned that respect. “I seek the truth,”Shallan said. “Wherever it may be, whoever may hold it. That’s who I am.” She nodded to Iyatil, then pulled away and escaped the monastery. I don't know if there's evidence any more convincing than referring to herself as a different person from her own perspective, not even out loud. It's not something that can be explained away by acting, it's not consistent with Veil, and even Pattern says that there is something wrong with her "lies she places on herself." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant she/her Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 56 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Act here is a verb, not a noun. It's used a synonym with behave. "That was how Radiant would behave." Bad choice of words on my part. Your statement is correct—nonetheless the point still stands that Shallan refers to Radiant while under the persona of Radiant. I used act as in “pretense”, to describe what Shallan was doing, but I can see how my choice of words could lead to that misunderstanding. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I do want to say that your arguments have convinced me that Veil is exactly as you say. There's been no trouble of this sort with veil. Hey, if Im getting a concession here, Ill take it. Good debate usually involves some give and take. Youve certainly presented some interesting ideas for me to chew on. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: For the most part I feel both that I've got a solid understanding of your viewpoint and that it's based on a well reasoned and logical assessment of the situation. I think we might be approaching the point where we'll be forced to agree to disagree. I can definitely see where you are coming from and that your points have merit, it just isn't quite enough to sway me. Good enough for me. At this point, Im feeling the same way about your arguments. I guess we’ll just have to see where Brandon takes this and come back to it when there’s more information. Thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) I think I found another passage that really helps back up my Theory. Quote “Parasaphi,” Renarin said. “She’s the one who searched out the seedstones.” “Yes,” Navani replied. “In order to repopulate her fallen people, she climbed the peaks of Dara—the myth changes, listing different modern mountain ranges as the true peaks of Dara—to find stones touched by the Heralds themselves. She brought them to Nadris on his deathbed and harvested his seed to bring life to the stones. They hatched forth ten children, which she used to found a new nation. Marnah, I believe it was called.” “Origin of the Makabaki,” Renarin said. “Mother told me that story when I was a child.” Dalinar shook his head. “Born from rocks?” The old stories rarely made much sense to him, although the devotaries had canonized many of them. WoK Chapter 61 Right for Wrong I think there's a few things worth noting. It was a special type of stone touched by the heralds, so possibly invested in some way, there's now not only a connection with death Rites but with birth and the origins of a nation, and most importantly, it was canonized by the church. now I know that their records are suspect, but this fits together across multiple cultures and races now Edited November 2, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmancer he/him Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Aren't we all forgetting Rock? His name is a poem about a special rock his father found [WoK, Ch. 27]. And then Wit says that he was once named for a beautiful stone that became useless for his wearing it [citation needed]. Maybe Brandon just likes rocks? Or rocks are like metal in that they have more significance in the Cosmere than we've noticed before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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