[OB] Inside cover art!! Finally!

[SilverTiger she/her]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I learned it from my teachers over 13 years of Jewish religious studies. I'm not certain which theology you studied, but the above was from mine.

Did you know angels don't speak Aramaic? 

I am Roman Catholic, so I guess we have two very different theologies. And where did you learn angels don't speak Aramaic? That sounds very arbitrary and random to me.

[Steeldancer he/him]

And some people were complaining about Jasnah on the cover. Ash much?

Anyway, storms these are beautiful. I cannot wait to see the art we missed in part one. I for one think we are going to get pictures of Urithiru, maybe the Parshpeople, Dalinar, maybe the wedding? Maybe the map Shallan does, one of the live shardblades we haven't seen depicted yet. And perhaps one random scientific thing, like the chains that lower spheres into the storm, or the lifts. Or the new fabrials.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

@SilverTiger I'm going to PM you; we've hijacked this thread enough.

[SilverTiger she/her]

Okay, no more theological debates about angels, move along now people...

[Steeldancer he/him]

And now at a closer look, Ash is even more racy than I realized. Both by our standards and by Vorin standards.

I can't decide if I love it or if it's a little much. But the art itself is awesome

[Nathrangking he/him]

That faced of Ishar's may soon be mangled when Nale gets his hands on him. Me thinks some dispensation of justice is in order. As for Ash she is rather good looking. What would Shallan say if she saw her I wonder. @king of nowhere is that before or after her face turns as red as her hair?

Edited October 22, 2017 by Nathrangking

[kari-no-sugata]

52 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

And now at a closer look, Ash is even more racy than I realized. Both by our standards and by Vorin standards.

I can't decide if I love it or if it's a little much. But the art itself is awesome

Personally, I have no problem with artistic nudes, so long as it's tastefully done and this is not "nude" though it is suggestive. Compared to a lot of religious paintings, this is quite tame.

I'd be more curious what the in-world characters would think about it. Tongue in cheek:

Kaladin: She's going to catch a cold.

Syl: (noticing Kaladin's lack of reaction) Tsk... darn late bloomer...

Dalinar: Navani is hotter.

Shallan: (though 1) Great contrast, suggesting both strength and vulnerability. (thought 2) Sigh, if only... (thought 3) I wonder what Adolin thinks of this...

Adolin: (noticing Shallan staring at him out of the corner of her eyes decides to quickly walk off without comment...)

Pattern: NO MATING!

Jasnah: A Herald with a safehand? What terrible scholarship...

 

[king of nowhere]

9 hours ago, Morsk said:

Something that never works for me, is that in-world they're considered angelic, almost divine, and worshiped. I'm guessing Brandon chose Herald because it's a synonym for messenger, and "angel" also means "messenger". But even understanding that, I can't think of a Herald as anything but an important person with magic. They've been humanized too much, starting with the Prelude.

On one side, that was partly on purpose. Heralds are human, and in fact they are all some brand of crazy now. I wonder what it would to to vorinism to learn the state their heralds are in.

On another angle, the concept of god as omnipotent and all-knowing developed with the monoteistic religions. Ancient religions worshipped people like zeus: a guy who does not age, has magical powers and can shoot lightning. A common wizard of roleplaying games would be worshipped as a god by ancient people, because a god was something completely unrelated from the idea of it those who grew influenced by monotheistic religions have.  I'm curious as to what would think of the whoel business a chinese or japanese or someone else raised in a society with a politeistic pantheon.

4 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

And some people were complaining about Jasnah on the cover. Ash much?

The complaints about Jasnah were  because she culd appear to be trying to be alluring in the middle of a combat scene, which is ridiculous. and there weren't many such complaints, because ultimately they were unfounded. Shallash instead is not fighting or doing anything else, and she's supposed to be an impersonation of beauty. So she can go around half-naked without people complaining. It's all a matter of context.

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

That faced of Ishar's may soon be mangled when Nale gets his hands on him. Me thinks some dispensation of justice is in order. As for Ash she is rather good looking. What would Shallan say if she saw her I wonder.

Shallan would want to take a picture of her. The same reaction she has with everyone else.

[Dlyol]

I think one point that this discussion of skin colour in Roshar is missing is that in our society skin colour's are as much, if not more, social constructions than phenotypical realities. In the United States, Irish, Italian and Mormon people were historically regarded as non-white but are now broadly thought of as white and in our own day increasing numbers of Hispanic citizens (especially those who are wealthier and have been citizens for longer) are self-defining as white. Conversely, African-American slaves who due to generations of slaveholder rape were phenotypically white were still defined as black by law and society because of their ancestry. 

My point is not to make some political point or to give a sociology lecture but rather to point out what feels like an incorrect premise to some of these comments which is; 'races exist' and then questioning whether Rosharans care. Races don't exist, rather they are constructed by society when assigning wealth, power and esteem (reading Stormlight I sometimes worry Brandon makes this error as well). The question is not whether there are different skin phenotypes on Roshar but how society constructs those phenotypes by defining who possesses them and how they should feature in the hierarchy of wealth and power we call 'race'.

Edit: Here's an example from a non-western society. Japan constructed a disadvantaged racial group out of people no phenotypically different from the rest of Japanese society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin

Edited October 23, 2017 by Dlyol
non-western example

[BlackYeti he/him]

8 hours ago, Dlyol said:

I think one point that this discussion of skin colour in Roshar is missing is that in our society skin colour's are as much, if not more, social constructions than phenotypical realities. In the United States, Irish, Italian and Mormon people were historically regarded as non-white but are now broadly thought of as white and in our own day increasing numbers of Hispanic citizens (especially those who are wealthier and have been citizens for longer) are self-defining as white. Conversely, African-American slaves who due to generations of slaveholder rape were phenotypically white were still defined as black by law and society because of their ancestry. 

My point is not to make some political point or to give a sociology lecture but rather to point out what feels like an incorrect premise to some of these comments which is; 'races exist' and then questioning whether Rosharans care. Races don't exist, rather they are constructed by society when assigning wealth, power and esteem (reading Stormlight I sometimes worry Brandon makes this error as well). The question is not whether there are different skin phenotypes on Roshar but how society constructs those phenotypes by defining who possesses them and how they should feature in the hierarchy of wealth and power we call 'race'.

Edit: Here's an example from a non-western society. Japan constructed a disadvantaged racial group out of people no phenotypically different from the rest of Japanese society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin

This is wrong: skin colours are in absolutely no way, "social constructions".  We do not live in the Cosmere, perception does not shape reality. Skin colour is determined by the quantity of melanin in the skin, which is in turn determined primarily by genetics. Thus skin colour runs in families; your children will have the same skin pigmentation that you have unless you have them with someone who has a much different skin colour to you.

A perfect example of this misunderstanding is your example of the Burakumin. The Burakumin are not a race, they have no distinguishing physical traits from the rest of the Japanese population. This is an example of a caste, and thus has no connection with racism; rather, a completely different example of human stupidity.

[Stark he/him]

Whelp, with that culty-worshippy shot of Ishar, I may have to join the Ishar is Tezim bandwagon...

 

Also, damnation Ash.  A garment woven of light for the original Lightweaver, with discarded masks...  So much to deconstruct from that photo.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

22 minutes ago, Stark said:

Whelp, with that culty-worshippy shot of Ishar, I may have to join the Ishar is Tezim bandwagon...

I espouse the Ishar=Tezim idea as much as the next guy, but I have to point out that Dandos the Oilsworn didn't know about Tezim.  So unless Ishar generally had people worshipping him in culty fashions, I doubt this picture can support that theory. 

Also, am I the only one who thinks of southern scadrians when I see those masks?

[Stark he/him]

16 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, am I the only one who thinks of southern scadrians when I see those masks?

No, I think more of the masks that Shallan wears.  Each one representing a different personality she can adopt.  I counted, 5 masks on the floor, one in hand...  So no hints there.

 

As for Dandos...  Didn't he die 300 years ago?  And Tezim is now?  Why would Dandos know about that, unless these are Dandos paintings?  I'm a little confused.  I am interested by the focus of the moons, with blue Nomon in the forefront.  Violet Selas and green Mishim are not given colour, but there may be some significance to the moons?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Just now, Stark said:

As for Dandos...  Didn't he die 300 years ago?  And Tezim is now?  Why would Dandos know about that, unless these are Dandos paintings?  I'm a little confused.  I am interested by the focus of the moons, with blue Nomon in the forefront.  Violet Selas and green Mishim are not given colour, but there may be some significance to the moons?

I'm pretty sure these are Dandos paintings, I believe Brandon said that. And that is my point. He wouldn't know about Tezim, and thus, this Ishar picture is not much in the way of evidence for the Ishar = Tezim theory.

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'm pretty sure these are Dandos paintings, I believe Brandon said that. And that is my point. He wouldn't know about Tezim, and thus, this Ishar picture is not much in the way of evidence for the Ishar = Tezim theory.

Sorry not really understanding how the painter not knowing Tezim matters. The painting of Ishar does look a little like a cult. We the readers and in world characters are learning about a very cultish leader so I see the correlation. No one is saying he painted Tezim just that this is a coincidence possible adding some weight to Tezim being Ishar. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Stark he/him]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

No one is saying he painted Tezim just that this is a coincidence possible adding some weight to Tezim being Ishar. 

Thank you for articulating this for me.  I could not find the words.  This depiction of Ishar fills me with dread, as he appears like the cult leader at the head of his congregation, framed by the moons.  It is disturbing.

 

On another note, if anyone hear receives a copy of Oathbringer, but Ash's face is scratched out, do you return it because it is damaged, or keep it as the ultimate fourth wall breaking collector's item?

Edited October 23, 2017 by Stark
Typos. Always with the typos.

[Blacksmithki]

8 minutes ago, Stark said:

Thank you for articulating this for me.  I could not find the wrods.  This depiction of Ishar fills me with dread, as he appears like the cult leader at the head of his congregation, framed by the moons.  It is disturbing.

 

On another note, if anyone hear receives a copy of Oathbringer, but Ash's face is scratched out, do you return it because it is damaged, or keep it as the ultimate fourth wall breaking collector's item?

Only if you have proof you didn't do it yourself

[Argent he/him]

8 minutes ago, Stark said:

On another note, if anyone hear receives a copy of Oathbringer, but Ash's face is scratched out, do you return it because it is damaged, or keep it as the ultimate fourth wall breaking collector's item?

You know, I might considering doing that with my second copy.

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

Thank you for articulating this for me.  I could not find the words.  This depiction of Ishar fills me with dread, as he appears like the cult leader at the head of his congregation, framed by the moons.  It is disturbing.

Out of our view all those guys are holding glasses of kool-aide. 

[soyperson]

2 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Out of our view all those guys are holding glasses of kool-aide. 

Cool aides presenting Kool-Aid

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

On another note, if anyone hear receives a copy of Oathbringer, but Ash's face is scratched out, do you return it because it is damaged, or keep it as the ultimate fourth wall breaking collector's item?

I would return it. I want my book whole, thank you. That said, I'm glad I wasn't the only person thinking "this picture would piss off Shalash so much."

[Dlyol]

4 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

This is wrong: skin colours are in absolutely no way, "social constructions".  We do not live in the Cosmere, perception does not shape reality. Skin colour is determined by the quantity of melanin in the skin, which is in turn determined primarily by genetics. Thus skin colour runs in families; your children will have the same skin pigmentation that you have unless you have them with someone who has a much different skin colour to you.

A perfect example of this misunderstanding is your example of the Burakumin. The Burakumin are not a race, they have no distinguishing physical traits from the rest of the Japanese population. This is an example of a caste, and thus has no connection with racism; rather, a completely different example of human stupidity.

What I said was not wrong but perhaps I should have been clearer around definitions. I was careful to delineate between phenotype (i.e. skin, hair colour, bone structure etc) and race which is a human category. Race has no meaning outside of racism as my examples of whiteness in the United States show. Irish people who generally everyone considers to be white now were considered 'swarthy' in the 19th C. Ta-Nehisi Coates has a wonderful phrase 'race is the child of racism not the father'. Sure there are people who look similar phenotypically but for them to be considered a 'race' racism as a set of power and wealth relations (which is more than just prejudice) has to turn them into one. Sure skin pigmentation is genetic but your missing the point. White, Black etc are human categories not natural ones and who gets to be in them and out of them is defined by racists not nature. 

On the Burakumin, you are saying that 'races exist' and the Burakumin are not a race. But races don't exist! Certainly not in some primordial fashion. To say otherwise is race essentialism. Race as it actually exists is something racists create using wealth and power exactly as the Burakumin were created as a concept in feudal Japan

[NinjaAlligators he/him]

4 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

This is wrong: skin colours are in absolutely no way, "social constructions".  We do not live in the Cosmere, perception does not shape reality. Skin colour is determined by the quantity of melanin in the skin, which is in turn determined primarily by genetics. Thus skin colour runs in families; your children will have the same skin pigmentation that you have unless you have them with someone who has a much different skin colour to you.

A perfect example of this misunderstanding is your example of the Burakumin. The Burakumin are not a race, they have no distinguishing physical traits from the rest of the Japanese population. This is an example of a caste, and thus has no connection with racism; rather, a completely different example of human stupidity.

Dlyol never said that skin colors (he prefers skin phenotypes, which I also prefer) are socially contructed, he said that the way we racialize these is socially constructed.  Race is a social construction in that it assumes common descent and typical characteristics based on phenotype--if your skin contains a certain quantity of melanin, certain characteristics are assumed.  Aside from Dlyol's excellent examples based on 19th century perception of Irish and Italian immigrants in the US, I could add to that the strange double-perception of Jews as being both "white" (I am ethnically Jewish and phenotypically "white", showing the hollowness of that phrase) and "non-white" (witness the attitude of the KKK toward Jews, historical persecution in Europe, Russia, etc....).  Most importantly, race as a social construct has been conclusively demonstrated by our ongoing understanding of human genetics, which has shown us that "black" populations within Africa can be further apart genetically than either is from "white" Europeans.  We could argue all day about how dark your skin has to be to be "black", or whether a light-skinned Dravidian person bears the same class stigma in India as a dark-skinned Dravidian person, etc.  Race (at least, race based on skin color) is not an inherent thing, a genetic thing.  It is a thing that humans on Earth have constructed based on our phenotypic observations, vast generalization, and our innate desire to divide society into neat categories, including "us" and "them".  

The Alethi absolutely have conceptualizations of things very like race, but they aren't based at all on skin color--a great example is the Makabaki.  The Alethi court obviously considers Azir and its court to be legitimate, even as peers in a way.  Where national differences are emphasized, what is important isn't skin color so much as religion--the Makabaki are not Vorin, and leadership is not based on the lighteyes/darkeyes dynamic that is the essential source of Alethi racial construction.  It is, of course, completely possible to recognize skin color difference and even to associate it with cultural difference without it becoming essentially racialized; a strong historical example is the attitude of Romans toward black Africans; they were assumed to have "Ethiopian" cultural characteristics, but not to be racially inferior.  

Incidentally, I think both Ishar and Shallash as depicted here could be described as "tan", so I feel that if anything we should probably update our idea of stereotypically Alethi beauty accordingly--if young Navani was considered gorgeous, she probably looked something somewhat like the depiction of Shallash we have here.  I don't think Alethi are much lighter skinned than what we have here.  I imagine Nale and Taln as being much darker-skinned than this.

[The Invested Beard]

Taln is described with Makabaki coloring, which would be more equivalent to African descent for us.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

On the topic of Ishar looking all cult-ish, lets not forget that the attributes associated with Bondsmiths are Pious and Guiding...so perhaps Dandos may painted this with those qualities in mind then, but now it (to us more knowledgeable folk) it could easily be interpreted as the other side of the coin