Who has Alethkar's Shardblades?

[Shardlet he/him]

So, Dalinar think-speaks that Alethkar has about 40 20 shardblades.  House Kholin (at the time he thought about this) had three blades (Dalinar's, Adolin's, and Elhokar's).  That leaves about 37 divided up between 9 highprindoms.  That indicates that at least several highprindoms have a substantial number of shardblades.  It does not appear that Sadeas has an appreciable number of blades.  Yet Sadeas and Dalinar's highprincedoms are the two most powerful.  How did Dalinar and Gavilar subdue the other highprinces with only three shardbearers?   Prior to that, power in Alethkar was achieved on the blade of a sword.  Surely a number of blades (and plate) would have been won during Dalinar and Gavilar's conquest of Alethkar.  What happened to those blades?  Why isn't there another highprincedom with substantial military might to rival Dalinar and Sadeas?  Obviously not all blades are held by the highprince's family, but why are there then no other shardbearers which fight for house Kholin or Sadeas?  I could well imagine that it would be undesirable to commit a man with only a blade to battle.  It would be risky without the protection of plate.  The blade could easily fall into Parshendi hands.  Even so...

 

Note: I know that Amaram who has a blade is subject to Sadeas, but this is a new blade which may not have been in Dalinar's count.  Even so, there is no mention of anyone with a blade in Sadeas's forces.  

 

Edit: As per Meg's correction, Alethkar has about 20 blades.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Shardlet

[ddleg]

Don't forget the king has several sets of plate and blades which he loans out for a fee

[hoser he/him]

I thought you said they were in your attic, making a racket whenever being summoned or unsummoned . 

 

It doesn't add up for me either.  In particular, Sadeas not having had a blade seems weird.  If a neighboring highprincedom has about 6 sets of Shardblades, you would think they would have taken over Sadeas's territory.  If someone else in the Sadeas' highprincedom had a blade and plate set, you would think that Sadeas would be serving under them. 

 

One possibility is that one or both of the two other highprincedoms that were allied wSadeas and the Kholins have a bunch. 

 

Elhokar could have a fair number under control: his, Gavilar's the two that Dalinar won from the Parshendi, Adolin's, Dalinar/Renarin's, ?

 

Let's say the Kholins have about 10 and the rest of the Alethi have about 30.  Let's say that Dalinar and Gavilar's skill made the difference and their alliance of four highprincedoms had half the Shards.  That gives each of their two allied princedoms about 5.

 

Kholin: 10

Sadeas: 0.5

Kholin-Sadeas ally 1: ~5

Kholin-Sadeas ally 2: ~5

Kholin-Sadeas enemy 1-6: average of 3

 

With a greater ability to consolidate weaponry, the Kholins wouldn't even need to be in control of fully half the Shards. 

 

With a large royal treasury of Shards, the average nonroyal princedom could have 3 Shards. 

Edited February 21, 2014 by hoser

[Meg]

Hey Shardlet,

 

I've some questions for clarification.

 

Where did you get the number "forty"? The only scene that came promptly to my mind when Dalinar "talked" about Blades has been the Feverstone-Vision. There's talk about "some twenty" Blades:

 

 

Alethkar owned some twenty Blades, Jah Keved a similar number. If one added up all the rest in the world, there might be enough total to equal the two powerful Vorin kingdoms. That meant, so far as he knew, there were less than hundred Blades in all of the world.

(emphasizes mine)

 

 

In a quick search-through I didn't find another passage referencing this topic, can you point me to your source?

 

And I'd like to make a veto regarding your count. I'd say:

• Dalinar (b + p)
• Gavilar's -- missing (presumably still in Kholinar) (b + p)
• Elhokar('s own) (b + p)
• Adolin (b + p)
• an unknown number of p/b won from the Parshendi that are in Elhokar's possession, but I think it's at least one (b + p)
• That's at least five sets of Shards for House Kholinar.

• Sadeas (p)
• And -- I nearly forgot --, of course there is Amaram (b + p) (remark: I've read your last sentence too late, but I'll leave Amaram as for I'm sure that the highprinces yet know about him having Shards -- *spanreeds* ).

• Resi (b + p)

  Brightlord Resi was the only full Shardbearer in Highprince Thanadal’s army—though their warcamp had three men who carried only the Blade or the Plate.

  (TWoK Ch. 58) (3 p/b)
• Thats one Set and three either Blade or Plate

So we know at least seven full sets of Shardplate and Blade for the Kholinars and one full set and three pieces from Thanadal's Princedom as well as one Plate for Sadeas and one set for his follower Amaram. -> nine full sets and four single pieces

 

Assuming that my counting was right there would be some eleven (or less) blades "lost" in Alethkar.

 

 

I could imagine that there are some Shards around in lost corners or just hidden.

 

But all of this does not nearly answer where the bigger part of the Shards born by the Knights Radiant are lost.

 

Hopefully I didn't mess something up again.

 

 

ninja'd by Hoser but I'll send the post and then read Hoser's post.

edit: Oh, Ddleg has been faster, too.

Now I've read Hoser's post.

 

I thought you said they were in your attic, making a racket whenever being summoned or unsummoned

I totally forgot this about the Blades. Regarding the Plates this raises the question if there's a bunk of Plates there, too. Or did the Plates immidiately lose this ability when given up by the Knights Radiant?

Edited February 21, 2014 by Meg

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Hey Shardlet,

 

I've some questions for clarification.

 

Where did you get the number "forty"? The only scene that came promptly to my mind when Dalinar "talked" about Blades has been the Feverstone-Vision. There's talk about "some twenty" Blades:

 

 

(emphasizes mine)

 

 

In a quick search-through I didn't find another passage referencing this topic, can you point me to your source?

 

And I'd like to make a veto regarding your count. I'd say:

• Dalinar (b + p)
• Gavilar's -- missing (presumably still in Kholinar) (b + p)
• Elhokar('s own) (b + p)
• Adolin (b + p)
• an unknown number of p/b won from the Parshendi that are in Elhokar's possession, but I think it's at least one (b + p)
• That's at least five sets of Shards for House Kholinar.

• Sadeas (p)
• And -- I nearly forgot --, of course there is Amaram (b + p) (remark: I've read your last sentence too late, but I'll leave Amaram as for I'm sure that the highprinces yet know about him having Shards -- *spanreeds* ).

• Resi (b + p)

  (TWoK Ch. 58) (3 p/b)

• Thats one Set and three either Blade or Plate

So we know at least seven full sets of Shardplate and Blade for the Kholinars and one full set and three pieces from Thanadal's Princedom as well as one Plate for Sadeas and one set for his follower Amaram. -> nine full sets and four single pieces

 

Assuming that my counting was right there would be some eleven (or less) blades "lost" in Alethkar.

 

 

I could imagine that there are some Shards around in lost corners or just hidden.

 

But all of this does not nearly answer where the bigger part of the Shards born by the Knights Radiant are lost.

 

Hopefully I didn't mess something up again.

 

 

ninja'd by Hoser but I'll send the post and then read Hoser's post.

edit: Oh, Ddleg has been faster, too.

Now I've read Hoser's post.

 

I totally forgot this about the Blades. Regarding the Plates this raises the question if there's a bunk of Plates there, too. Or did the Plates immidiately lose this ability when given up by the Knights Radiant?

 

 

Huh, I always assumed the Elohkar's Blade/Plate were Gavilar's just with the plate re-painted. I'll have to go back and re-read the descriptions of those armors. 

[hoser he/him]

Whoa, Meg!  Looking up quotes!  Good job!

Hey Shardlet,
 
I've some questions for clarification.
 
Where did you get the number "forty"? The only scene that came promptly to my mind when Dalinar "talked" about Blades has been the Feverstone-Vision. There's talk about "some twenty" Blades:
...

The numbers from WoR seem a bit different.

WoR Spoiler

The numbers from WoR chapter 5 don't seem to add up:

“We’ll see,” Dalinar said. “This is only one part of what we will do, the smaller part—but also the most visible part. Adolin, everyone tells me how good you are at dueling, and you have pestered me incessantly to relax my prohibition. There are thirty Shardbearers in the army, not counting our own. Can you defeat that many men?”

If we allow for 3-6 blades for the Kholins, that leaves a maximum of about 17 blades.  Do half the Shardbearers only have plate?  That doesn't seem to match what we've seen.  Most seem to come in sets.  I wonder if the numbers changed between tWoK and WoR?

 

If the overall number is 20, the the logic above still applies divided by two.  The average highprince would have a little less than 2 blades with Sadeas less, but the Kholins more.  It makes Sadeas' situation less anomalous, but not much. 

Edited February 21, 2014 by hoser

[Meg]

Hey Hoser,

I intentionally didn't include WoR-information because the thread is in the TWoK-Subforum.

[Shardlet he/him]

Where did you get the number "forty"? The only scene that came promptly to my mind when Dalinar "talked" about Blades has been the Feverstone-Vision. There's talk about "some twenty" Blades: 

 

 You are correct Meg.  I mis-remembered.  Feverstone keep was the scene I was thinking about.  

 

Don't forget the king has several sets of plate and blades which he loans out for a fee

 

The book say the King's plate and blade.  There is no implication that the King has several sets which he rents out.

 

I thought you said they were in your attic, making a racket whenever being summoned or unsummoned . 

 

That is where the blades go when dismissed.  I have no way of telling which blade is bonded to whom. 

 

And I'd like to make a veto regarding your count. I'd say:

• Dalinar (b + p)
• Gavilar's -- missing (presumably still in Kholinar) (b + p)
• Elhokar('s own) (b + p)
• Adolin (b + p)
• an unknown number of p/b won from the Parshendi that are in Elhokar's possession, but I think it's at least one (b + p)
• That's at least five sets of Shards for House Kholinar.

• Sadeas (p)
• And -- I nearly forgot --, of course there is Amaram (b + p) (remark: I've read your last sentence too late, but I'll leave Amaram as for I'm sure that the highprinces yet know about him having Shards -- *spanreeds* ).

• Resi (b + p)

  (TWoK Ch. 58) (3 p/b)

• Thats one Set and three either Blade or Plate

 

You are making some assumptions which I think are a bit shaky here, Meg.  It is unclear whether or not Elhokar's plate and blade were Gavilar's (potentially -1).  I also doubt that Elhokar is hanging on to the plate and blades won from the Parshendi.  I think they would have been awarded in short order.  There is little advantage to them being in a closet somewhere.  With Elhokar's paranoia, it is likely if he had additional plate and blades that he would insist that they were worn by his bodyguards.  This suggests to me that the king has only the plate and blade we have seen.

 

However, 20 blades total for Alethkar makes things much more plausible for Kholin's sound power base while controlling three. 

Edited February 21, 2014 by Shardlet

[Meg]

You are correct Meg.  I mis-remembered.  Feverstone keep was the scene I was thinking about.

Thanks for clarification. And I never wanted to sound like my counting is the only one possible. It is just my personal sum-up of the information I remember.

 

The book say the King's plate and blade.  There is no implication that the King has several sets which he rents out.

That's right, but one set he must hold back for such events (so the one set I count "stands").

Digging deeper I found another two sets for Shards for Alethkar (though not necessarily House Kholin):

 

Dalinar had won a Parshendi Shardblade and Plate during his first year here. He’d given both to Elhokar to award to a warrior he felt would be the most useful to Alethkar and the war effort.

TWoK Ch. 18

 

You are making some assumptions which I think are a bit shaky here, Meg.  It is unclear whether or not Elhokar's plate and blade were Gavilar's (potentially -1).  I also doubt that Elhokar is hanging on to the plate and blades won from the Parshendi.  I think they would have been awarded in short order.  There is little advantage to them being in a closet somewhere.  With Elhokar's paranoia, it is likely if he had additional plate and blades that he would insist that they were worn by his bodyguards.  This suggests to me that the king has only the plate and blade we have seen.

Surely I'm only making assumptions but I'll try to back them up with the evidences TWoK gives us.

I've always felt like Elhokar's Set is not Gavilar's (my gut says Elhokar got his Set prior to the events in TWoK -- including the Prologue). I've made a quick search-through again. Szeth's description of Gavilar's Blade does not fit the description of Elhokar's:

Szeth describing Gavilar's Blade:

The newcomer carried a sword as well, an enormous Shardblade six feet long with a design along the blade like burning flames, a weapon of silvery metal that gleamed ...

(TWoK Prologue)

The description of Elhokar's blade during the chasmfiend hunt:

“Make it angry!” Elhokar bellowed, his Shardblade—Sunraiser—springing from mist into his hand. It was long and thin with a large crossguard, and was etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs.

TWoK Chapter 13

Those descriptions don't fit, I think.

My first count was:

 

So we know at least seven full sets of Shardplate and Blade for the Kholinars and one full set and three pieces from Thanadal's Princedom as well as one Plate for Sadeas and one set for his follower Amaram. -> nine full sets and four single pieces.

If we add those two sets mentioned above, we know of eleven full sets (and ...) in Alethkar and at least seven of them are possessed by the Kholin's.

[Shardlet he/him]

I am still dubious that the Kholins have more than three sets.  I still think that the King does not have a set reserved for rental.  Here is the quote from pg. 823 of the hardcover:

 

 

By tradition, the king's own Shardplate and Blade were available for a large fee to those who both had his favor and the wish to duel a Shardbearer.

 

That quote sounds to me that it is the King's personal set otherwise it would not have sounded so exclusive.  It would likely have said something like, 'the king had a set available for a large fee'.  The quote however says, the king's own Shardplate and Blade.  However, your note as to the difference in description between Gavilar's and Elhokar's blade is suggestive.  I do wonder what happened to it if it is a different blade.

 

I did also find another quote last night which indicates that there are certainly no Kholin shardbearers currently in Alethkar. It is at location 13558 on my Kindle.

 

 

Dalinar nodded. "I have long worried that our homeland is in danger, now that every single Shardbearer fights out here on the Plains."

 

This indicates to me that there are no known Shardbearers currently in Alethkar (which raises the question is Amaram currently making his way to the Plains or is it not yet generally known that he is now a Shardbearer).  So, nobody in Kholinar with plate and blade protecting the queen and the interests of the king.

[Cromptj he/him]

I think House Kholin personally own at least 3 full sets of Shards. The Shards which Dalinar won presumably also belong to the Kholins and are to be returned when the war is over or they grow too old to fight. But the Kholin princedom probably control several more sets of blade and plate, which are owned by their vassals. This bumps their total number of Shardbearers to about 8-10, around a quarter of all the Shardbearers in Alethkar, and makes them the most powerful faction in terms of military power by far. But clearly not all of them are in the Shattered Plains, or we would see them participating in battles. So where are the rest of the Kholin Shardbearers?

I would guess that at least one was left behind to guard the queen and provide a suitable show of strength, which leaves, at minimum, 2 left. These are probably either unfit for battle (too old etc.) or they are protecting the borders.

Alethkar does seem to have a much greater proportion of its Shards owned by lower ranking lighteyes, though. The king of Jah Keved had three full Shardbearers as his bodyguard while Elhokar does not have a single one. This probably means that there is at least one more Kholin Shardbearer (Tearim?) in Kholinar to act as a bodyguard.

[Shardlet he/him]

I would guess that at least one was left behind to guard the queen and provide a suitable show of strength, which leaves, at minimum, 2 left. These are probably either unfit for battle (too old etc.) or they are protecting the borders.

Alethkar does seem to have a much greater proportion of its Shards owned by lower ranking lighteyes, though. The king of Jah Keved had three full Shardbearers as his bodyguard while Elhokar does not have a single one. This probably means that there is at least one more Kholin Shardbearer (Tearim?) in Kholinar to act as a bodyguard.

 

There are no shardbearers guarding the queen.  See my previous post.  Any other Kholin shardbearers (vassal lighteyes) would be serving in Dalinar's army.  I see no indication of any others outside of the Kholins themselves.  If Elhokar had a bodyguard, his absence at the hunt, the feasts, and Dalinar's confrontation of Elhokar at the end of WoK is glaringly conspicuous.  I would be astounded if there was a shardbearer bodyguard.

[DiamondMind he/him]

So to sum up so far, there are about 20 Shardblades in the army on the Shattered Plains, and none in Alethkar aside from Amaram, which Dalinar presumably didn't know of at that point. Let's leave aside Plate for right now, as that get's complicated.

Here is a minimal list of who has one:

• Elhokar
• Adolin
• Sadeas (once Dalinar's)
• A captured Blade given to the king to give away (notice the quote didn't say two captured sets, but one blade and one plate)

That's 4/20 that the Kholin family has (had). 5/20 counting Gavilar's, meaning they had a quarter of total stength in Alethkar. Not bad. 6/20 if Elhokar has another set for dueling, a disputed point.

 

This leaves 14-16 to split among 8 highprinces, leaving less than two blades for each army. Seems pretty reasonable.

The rest that we know of:

• Brightlord Resi, in Highprince Thanadal's army
• One, perhaps two more in Thanadal's army,

WoR spoilers:

• • One of Thanadal's is named: Salinor
  • Highprince Aladar has a Shardblade , though he lends this out

  About the Kings dueling set: Adolin thinks before his duel that "the man had only the Blade, though he’d been able to borrow a set of the King’s Plate for a bout with a full Shardbearer." This probably means that the king has more than one set of Plate, and possibly more than one Blade as well.

 

I think we can conclude the their aren't really any missing Shardblades, just that we haven't seen most of them yet. Sadeas does seem to have been an aberration before Dalinar traded him a Blade, though.

[Meg]

Upvote for beating me with my own weapons .

 

I am still dubious that the Kholins have more than three sets.  I still think that the King does not have a set reserved for rental.

You're right, I totally forgot about this, though I stick with four sets for the Kholins (Dalinar, Elhokar, Gavilar and Adolin's).

 

I did also find another quote last night which indicates that there are certainly no Kholin shardbearers currently in Alethkar.

This is correct again . Dalinar said this a few minutes before he "went" to Feverstone Keep.

 

This indicates to me that there are no known Shardbearers currently in Alethkar (which raises the question is Amaram currently making his way to the Plains or is it not yet generally known that he is now a Shardbearer).

Yes, but anyway, we know that Amaram has a set.

And I'll stick with information from TWoK.

[Shardlet he/him]

Yes, but anyway, we know that Amaram has a set.

 

It is unclear whether this blade is included in Dalinar's count.  It seems that Amaram would be required to be at the plains if it was generally known that he was a shardbearer.  Dalinar (or someone speaking to Dalinar) expresses concern that if a shardbearer was participating in the border conflicts that Jah Keved would start sending shardbearers of their own and that the situation would devolve into a war like has not been seen on Roshar for a long time.  I wonder why Amaram is not at the plains by the end of WoK.  It seems curious to me why Kaladin gets there first after serving as a slave for a substantial amount of time, yet I would have expected Amaram to leave for the plains after setting command of the home army in order. 

[Cromptj he/him]

I think that Amaram is generally known to be a Shardbearer. I can't remember the exact quote but some of the Bridge 4 members know that Amaram is a Shardbearer.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think that Amaram is generally known to be a Shardbearer. I can't remember the exact quote but some of the Bridge 4 members know that Amaram is a Shardbearer.

 

That is correct.  I just read it the other day.  Someone asks if Kaladin was there when Amaram won his shards and Kaladin answers, 'No.  Nobody was.'

Edited February 24, 2014 by Shardlet

[Cromptj he/him]

And Amaram probably was delayed because of his injuries. He has a crushed leg and then had to learn how to use his Shards.

[Shardlet he/him]

And Amaram probably was delayed because of his injuries. He has a crushed leg and then had to learn how to use his Shards.

 

Maybe, but it seems he could better learn to use his plate and blade from other Shardbearers.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Crushed leg still, though having what amounts to a magical power armour is probably pretty handy for staying active while recovering from injuries.