[OB] Oathbringer chapters 28-30

[Stark he/him]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I figured, that she painted Shallan over Veil,

I got that impression as well.  Rather than dropping veil, she dropped some of the clothes and painted a Shallan Mask over the veil.  Mask on top of mask. Mask-ception.

Now my mind is seeing Shallan wearing a green mask and yellow suit...

Which is why her mind rebelled.  Why waste more light creating a mask of your own face to go over another mask, unless you are really beginning to dissociate from yourself and can't quite figure out which is the real you.

 

It is also worth discussing why Re-Shepir ignored her.  Yes, she is a Lightweaver, like that which imprisoned and hurt her in the past.  But, still.  There were no midnight Shallan's in the Horde.  Why not?  Is it because of that fear?  If so, that is a huge gimme for the good guys.  "I will not imitate the one person here I actually have reason to fear."  Or, is it that Shallan's personality is so much in flux, versus everyone else's relatively static personality, and contiguous appearance, theat Re-Shepir cannot make a Shallan image, especially given her weakness at producing proper images?

[Steeldancer he/him]

Ok is the issue people have with my idea that they think that I'm saying the Unmade came after the desolations? Because... I never said that. The heralds broke before the desolations ended, or so I think. So first desolation, first unmade. Second desolation, second unmade, 2 heralds broken. Ect. 

[Stark he/him]

1 minute ago, Krios said:

lovecraftian or cthulhuesc feel to it with all the smoke, darkness and approximation of animals and humans.

Actually, Re-Shepir really reminded me of Pennywise.  I just finished reading It before beginning my reread.  And Pennywise is definitely Lovecraft-esque.  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Krios said:

My theory on why Shallan and Renarin can sense the weirdness, but not Dalinar is the powerlevel of the spren.

@Yata stated on the Discord, that it might have to do with both Shallan and Renarin having access to the Surge Illumination, which would make Unmade Surge-based rather than Order-based. It is an interesting idea at least.

[Stark he/him]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

Ok is the issue people have with my idea that they think that I'm saying the Unmade came after the desolations? Because... I never said that. The heralds broke before the desolations ended, or so I think. So first desolation, first unmade. Second desolation, second unmade, 2 heralds broken. Ect. 

And that is the feel I have as well.  Each Desolation got progressively worse, with more Unmade at each one.  Could be wrong, but the first desolation having one, seductive unmade, and more with each subsequent one, as each Herald broke in turn.

 

This is of course entirley contigent on there having been only nine desolations so far, and one Herald breaking for each in turn.  Neither of which is officially confirmed.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Stark said:

And that is the feel I have as well.  Each Desolation got progressively worse, with more Unmade at each one.  Could be wrong, but the first desolation having one, seductive unmade, and more with each subsequent one, as each Herald broke in turn.

 

This is of course entirley contigent on there having been only nine desolations so far, and one Herald breaking for each in turn.  Neither of which is officially confirmed.

Well if it's confirmed to be not 9 desolations, my theory goes out the window. Oh well

[Islington]

I feel like everyone saying Taravangian is going to become any kind of Radiant is forgetting that "Journey before destination" is part of the First Ideal. How you do something is as important as what you do. Mr T ain't getting that blade and plate anytime soon. 

[king of nowhere]

best chapters so far I'd say. great performance for all characters involved.

Dalinar just finding he can communicate with people through the stormfather seems just too convenient, but hey, it's not like it wasn't foreshadowed. And goood thing the big spren starts to pull his weight on the team.

Shallan being terrified of revealing veil to adolin... damnit shallan! open up with someone already!

I suspect every unmade is a twisted version of a normal spren. moelach, the one connected to death rattles,is probably the counterpart to the truthwatchers' spren, whatever it is.

 

And I REALLY was expecting lyn to die in that fight.

Edited October 31, 2017 by king of nowhere

[Stark he/him]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

Shallan being terrified of revealing veil to adolin... damnit shallan! open up with someone already!

I am imaging, as part of the investigations, Adolin interacting with Veil unexpectedly.  Like he shows up and starts talking t Shallan's guards, and they point him to Veil who cannot dodge, and needs to have a conversation with him.

 

And then Veil, while flustered at this unplanned, unwanted interaction, accidentally lets slip about him needing to go take a break, before he shits his plate, or something, and totally blows her cover in the most hilarious way possible.

[Gigalemesh he/him]

10 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Ok is the issue people have with my idea that they think that I'm saying the Unmade came after the desolations? Because... I never said that. The heralds broke before the desolations ended, or so I think. So first desolation, first unmade. Second desolation, second unmade, 2 heralds broken. Ect. 

Personally my issue with the assumption that there were only nine desolations, as you said in a later post without that the whole theory goes out the window, and we haven't seen anything to imply that it is the case, other than it would fit nicely with that idea

[vividox]

55 minutes ago, PunSpren said:

Confirmation again that Renarin had to remove his plate gauntlet to channel stormlight

I'm guessing that's a side affect of having "dead" shardplate. I'd bet he can use Stormlight through Glys-plate. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

Personally my issue with the assumption that there were only nine desolations, as you said in a later post without that the whole theory goes out the window, and we haven't seen anything to imply that it is the case, other than it would fit nicely with that idea

Well we know it's less than 99. And we don't know it's not 9. So my theory is entirely valid. Until proved Wrong 

[lordofsoup]

Those Shallan chapters were great.  It's really interesting to see that Veil is closer to her true personality than Shallan.  

So were unmade spren that odium corrupted or did he create them?

[Leyrann]

9 minutes ago, Islington said:

I feel like everyone saying Taravangian is going to become any kind of Radiant is forgetting that "Journey before destination" is part of the First Ideal. How you do something is as important as what you do. Mr T ain't getting that blade and plate anytime soon. 

There is this thing called "character development", however.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

First impressions.

Dalinar again. Lets see. Politics. Yawn. Destroy the Oathgate, -snort-, good luck with that, I'm sure it'll be easier than breaking a wooden door. Nice nice, seems he finally failed. Maybe means he will do something fun the other 4 parts.

Quote

Same as always, people ignored him unless he had a sword in his hand.

Storms, it was like they wanted him to come in swinging.

 A bit of a twisted logic. But not entirely sure I disagree. Roshar is a strange place, but it definetely does seem stupid that people seem to ignore honesty over vipers like Sadeas.

So Oathbringer is found...I was starting to think it would be in the hands of a society member.

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He seized the sword, bracing himself for the screams. The cries of a dead spren. They weren’t the shrill, painful shrieks he’d heard when touching other Blades, but more of a whimper. The sound of a man backed into a corner, thoroughly beaten and facing something terrible, but too tired to keep screaming.

Heh, so the poor spren of oathbringer is in even worse shape than the average dead spren? Poor spren, I can't blame her/him. In the hands of Sunbringer, Blackthorn and Sadeas? 

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It remembers your oath, the Stormfather sent. It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others

 Seems I was completely off my mark. The day you won it...so maybe people are right he didn't kill the boy. 

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“I will see you in judgment someday, Amaram,” Dalinar said. “Once this is done.”

And back to Dalinar's incredibly poor decision making skills. I didn't take it as badly as most people last week when he did nothing as he was backed against the wall. But this time he does acknowledge he will do nothing. Great job, why would we not want to have a known backstabber at my back during the doom of the world?

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The stories of darkeyes gaining Blades are charming, but do you really think we have time for nursery tales now, instead of practical reality?”

-Cocks head- Is this denial? Has he told himself he won the blade so many times he believes it? It did happen. It wasn't a story. While the great brightlord was lying on his back. And said darkeye now could likely defeat every alethi shardbearer at the same time. So his point is...?

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Amaram stooped, lifting Oathbringer. “And what of the hundreds, even thousands, your wars killed?”

Muahahhah. And thus my above point is strengthened. There is no difference between battle and backstabbing for Amaram. Hint hint Dalinar. Why isn't Adolin here to point out the obvious? Then again better not, he likely will need a bit of time to calm down from the discovery of the blade.

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“You stand where you do because of a brutal determination to do what had to be done. It is because of that trail of corpses that you have the luxury to uphold some lofty, nebulous code. Well, it might make you feel better about your past, but morality is not a thing you can simply doff to put on the helm of battle, then put back on when you’re done with the slaughter.

I've just realized something. Kaladin and Shallan know Dalinar. But I think they are the only ones that do. The alethi just see the Blackthorn, and nothing else. Interesting. And then he wonders why the rest of Roshar don't trust him when the people in front of him haven't seen he has changed.

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“Hang all four,” Taravangian whispered

Well, hello first public hint of T! What do we all bet Dalinar ignores it/doesn't think anything further of it?

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“No, the greater one. I’ve been wishing for a way to meet with the other monarchs in person.” Dalinar grinned. “I think that in a coming highstorm, Queen Fen of Thaylenah is going to have a quite remarkable experience.”

This could actually be fun.

[Gigalemesh he/him]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

Well we know it's less than 99. And we don't know it's not 9. So my theory is entirely valid. Until proved Wrong 

I'm not saying there is any proof against, it is very possible in fact. I'm just saying that my, and maybe other's, hesitancy in going with that theory is that it hinges on something that is completely speculation, especially since quite a few posts (can't remember whether any of them where yours or just people agreeing) made out that the 9 desolations were facts, which just isn't the case

[vividox]

Wow. Those were some chapters. I think most of my thoughts have been covered by the comments so far. That turned into a very unexpected battle with an Unmade very quickly. Just three more chapters until the end of part 1 - I'm guessing one Dalinar flashback, one Dalinar real-time, and one Kaladin. Getting really close to release time!

[psc92]

5 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

Personally my issue with the assumption that there were only nine desolations, as you said in a later post without that the whole theory goes out the window, and we haven't seen anything to imply that it is the case, other than it would fit nicely with that idea

 

Considering how important the number 10 is in the Stormlight Archive I think it would make sense from a storytelling perspective for this to be the 10th Desolation. Certainly not proof, but it would make sense to me if it was.

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

I'm not saying there is any proof against, it is very possible in fact. I'm just saying that my, and maybe other's, hesitancy in going with that theory is that it hinges on something that is completely speculation, especially since quite a few posts (can't remember whether any of them where yours or just people agreeing) made out that the 9 desolations were facts, which just isn't the case

What would be the point of Theorycrafting If we already knew everything for sure?

I will defend my Theories, until proved Wrong by WoB. 

[Islington]

9 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

There is this thing called "character development", however.

Rude. Sorry I apparently insulted your favorite character. 

 

Also, it's going to be a long walk from genocidal doomsday prepper to any kind of honorable leader. He bleeds people to death by the hundreds. He considered sterilizing stupid people. He utilized Szeth to kill an entire royal family several times over to try and kick of Roshar Battle Royale. He's an actual monster. He isn't an antihero, he's an interesting villain. He is capital E evil by basically every definition, and saying "But muh greater good" doesn't justify it per the black and white, good and evil moral code of the narrative. 

 

Are there shades of gray? Yes, but those shades so far have been navigated to find a definitive truth by our main characters so far. There is honor and justice or dishonor and evil, as per the magical rules of the world. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Islington
sp

[Leyrann]

4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

-Cocks head- Is this denial? Has he told himself he won the blade so many times he believes it? It did happen. It wasn't a story. While the great brightlord was lying on his back. And said darkeye now could likely defeat every alethi shardbearer at the same time. So his point is...?

He's saying that the idea of Kaladin really getting the blade and having to learn how to use it and everything is awesome and everything, but it would simply take too much time.

Luckily, Kaladin has gotten his own Sylblade by now, and it's even superior to the one Amaram stole.

[Gigalemesh he/him]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

What would be the point of Theorycrafting If we already knew everything for sure?

I will defend my Theories, until proved Wrong by WoB. 

I'm not attacking your theories, or saying there is anything wrong with thinking up cool theories without proof. You asked why people didn't agree with the theory and I gave a possible reason, had no intent to be rude

[Stark he/him]

2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

There is this thing called "character development", however.

There is that.  But to me, at least, Taravangian seems to be an "Ends justify the means" kinda guy.  Which seems diametrically opposed to "Journey before Destination", which implies how you achieve your ends matters more than the ends themselves.

 

Taravangian, as he currently is, is the opposite of a Radiant.  He fails at the first ideal.  He runs hospitals so he can more efficiently kill people for death rattles.  That does not strike me as Life before Death.  He chooses to turn institutions of life and healing into industrialized death machines that feed on the forgotten.  He is the anti-Lift.  He breaks people and divides them so he can better swoop in as the saviour.  And swooping is bad!  He is the anti-Dalinar.

 

He is going straight to Damnation on a road paved with his good intentions, and hell if I care if he is crying every step of the way.  He is no more Radiant than Amaram.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Gigalemesh said:

I'm not attacking your theories, or saying there is anything wrong with thinking up cool theories without proof. You asked why people didn't agree with the theory and I gave a possible reason, had no intent to be rude

I dont think you're being rude, it's just it makes So much sense. it feel like puzzle pieces have fallen into place. That's why I'm so excited about it. 

[Bernem he/him]

1 hour ago, Gigalemesh said:

1 hour ago, Stark said:

I think we have a WOB saying that there were nine desolations, including Aharetiem.  

If you have that WOB I'd like to see it because I've never heard that before, and I'm doubtful about the whole one desolation per herald thing until I do see it. And you are right about there being uncertainty, though I was addressing the idea that all the unmade came into being post oathpact.

I was also curious about this WoB that lots of people are mentioning. So for any others who want the direct source, here ya go!

Quote

Shawn M. Halverson
So I just got back from the book signing Brandon held today, I asked him about the time between each of the original 99 desolations.

Brandon Sanderson
It turns out that the number 99 in the stories was made up, and that there were much fewer of them. He also then stated that the cosmere runs along a 10,000 year gap and that Roshar falls right into the middle of the timeline. He ended with "That should give you a perspective of the timeline and events of the desolations". I figured that if anyone wanted to know a bit more of Roshar's history they might find this interesting.