[OB] Unmade Herald analogues

[Salkara]

18 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

To address that, i guess we'd have to turn to the "humanity are refugees from Braize" theory. Also at that point we would need to understand more about the Oathpact itself, which I sort of think effects how things play out in my theory. 

But I imagine it's something like Odium came to Braize and chased humanity around, then started torturing the Heralds. As he tortured the Heralds, one of them broke. Here's when we need a better understanding of the Oathpact, because somehow Odium hacks this break to 1. Create a desolation 2. Create an unmade. Or, maybe the unmade comes first after the break, and that's how the desolation started. The unmade acts as the Parshendi "God", and turns them all into voidbringers.

 Do I make any sense at all? 

You do, but I think this would run counter to what we've seen Odium do. He's been interested in Shards, not humans. He splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel and Ambition on Threnody, but he left humans alive on both worlds. I'd have to believe that there was a Shard on the planet already to think he went to Braize first, but the only other Shards in the system we know of (Honor and Cultivation) were invested on Roshar. Additionally, WoB is that there were humans on Roshar before Adonalsium was shattered, so I'd imagine any flight from Braize or Ashyn occurred before Honor, Cultivation, and Odium were in the mix.

[Steeldancer he/him]

13 minutes ago, Salkara said:

You do, but I think this would run counter to what we've seen Odium do. He's been interested in Shards, not humans. He splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel and Ambition on Threnody, but he left humans alive on both worlds. I'd have to believe that there was a Shard on the planet already to think he went to Braize first, but the only other Shards in the system we know of (Honor and Cultivation) were invested on Roshar. Additionally, WoB is that there were humans on Roshar before Adonalsium was shattered, so I'd imagine any flight from Braize or Ashyn occurred before Honor, Cultivation, and Odium were in the mix.

Then why the desolations? 

Again, Oathpact. I think when we have an understanding of the oathpact, we'll be able to understand Odiums actions. But at this point your issues are more with the grander understanding of what's going on with Roshar. 

[FiveLate]

@Steeldancer check out the Heralds become Fools and Oathpact links in my signature.   Both have some ideas you might want to consider.

[Steeldancer he/him]

30 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

@Steeldancer check out the Heralds become Fools and Oathpact links in my signature.   Both have some ideas you might want to consider.

ok I don't agree with all your ideas in there, but I like the "being connected to an ideal" thing. That gives more context to my own theory in what would be happening as Odium used the breaking of the heralds to his own ends. 

So, I'm now imagining it that he broke the bonds in these Heralds spirit webs that connected them to those ideals of honor. Then, he took those pieces of Spirit web... and constructed them into an Unmade. A twisting of the ideal they were supposed to be connected to, mixed with hatred. Also, BTW a new fool showed up in the chapters, idk how that fits into your theory. Hes walking on sand uphill, never going anywhere? 

The issue your theory presents is the WoB specifically about the desolations. If the desolation started if the Heralds stayed, well I bet the Heralds made the mistake of staying at least once. Which means at least 10 desolations, but grounds my theory a little better. That means the desolations did not just start when a Herald broke. But, it does support the idea that each Herald only broke once, because how can you break something like that multiple times? 

So, perhaps the answer here is that there were not just 9 desolations. BUT, a desolation would start when a Herald broke, so I would imagine it would be maybe 10 or 11. But more specifically, when a Herald broke, an unmade was made. Which still brings up questions about the first desolation... where was the Unmade for that?

This would explain the name Unmade, and would explain how it was a splinter, but like unto the spren/ heralds, in a twisted fashion.

Thank you for that, I'll think over the first desolation for a bit to see if there is a way to reconcile that with all this. 

[FiveLate]

6 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

ok I don't agree with all your ideas in there, but I like the "being connected to an ideal" thing. That gives more context to my own theory in what would be happening as Odium used the breaking of the heralds to his own ends. 

So, I'm now imagining it that he broke the bonds in these Heralds spirit webs that connected them to those ideals of honor. Then, he took those pieces of Spirit web... and constructed them into an Unmade. A twisting of the ideal they were supposed to be connected to, mixed with hatred. Also, BTW a new fool showed up in the chapters, idk how that fits into your theory. Hes walking on sand uphill, never going anywhere? 

The issue your theory presents is the WoB specifically about the desolations. If the desolation started if the Heralds stayed, well I bet the Heralds made the mistake of staying at least once. Which means at least 10 desolations, but grounds my theory a little better. That means the desolations did not just start when a Herald broke. But, it does support the idea that each Herald only broke once, because how can you break something like that multiple times? 

So, perhaps the answer here is that there were not just 9 desolations. BUT, a desolation would start when a Herald broke, so I would imagine it would be maybe 10 or 11. But more specifically, when a Herald broke, an unmade was made. Which still brings up questions about the first desolation... where was the Unmade for that?

This would explain the name Unmade, and would explain how it was a splinter, but like unto the spren/ heralds, in a twisted fashion.

Thank you for that, I'll think over the first desolation for a bit to see if there is a way to reconcile that with all this. 

There may not have been an Unmade for the first Desolation.  Odium may have come in the exact way he did on Sel.  The point about knowing they had to leave is good to.  That would up the minimum to 11....I saw the new fool, but can't update either of those theories until Oathbringer is spoiler unlocked.  I will be combining several theories into one huge one then.

Also go look at the voidbringer glyph analysis thread.  It talks about partial inversions of the symbols and such.

Edited October 31, 2017 by FiveLate
Continuation.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, FiveLate said:

There may not have been an Unmade for the first Desolation.  Odium may have come in the exact way he did on Sel.  The point about knowing they had to leave is good to.  That would up the minimum to 11....I saw the new fool, but can't update either of those theories until Oathbringer is spoiler unlocked.  I will be combining several theories into one huge one then.

good point. He did probably come expecting to just kill some fool shards. And then realized he... couldn't shatter honor because of the Oathpact, or something like that. 

And I look forward to seeing your updated theory. 

[FiveLate]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

good point. He did probably come expecting to just kill some fool shards. And then realized he... couldn't shatter honor because of the Oathpact, or something like that. 

And I look forward to seeing your updated theory. 

If you want ill pm it to you for discussion early once I firm it up more.  

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, FiveLate said:

If you want ill pm it to you for discussion early once I firm it up more.  

Sure. It feels like your theory almost fits together with this one into a cohesive whole... which is kind of cool. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I found a problem with this idea. If we read Kalaks POV in the Prelude, it seems like he is always tortured upon returning to Damnation.

Also, @Steeldancer and @FiveLate we don't necessarily have to have ten or eleven Desolations just because of that a new one kicks in if the Heralds stay. Honor might have tokd them what would happen if they didn't go back, and thus, they just went back nicely every time. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[FiveLate]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I found a problem with this idea. If we read Kalaks POV in the Prelude, it seems like he is always tortured upon returning to Damnation.

Could be a difference in the degree of torture...could be he was the most recent to break.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I found a problem with this idea. If we read Kalaks POV in the Prelude, it seems like he is always tortured upon returning to Damnation.

They're always tortured, but they only BREAK once. Kelek talks about being broken. You can still hurt a broken person, but once they're broken, that's pretty much the end of their hope and resolve. Or in this case, the connection and deification of their attribute. In kelek's case, he was no longer resolute, he couldn't go on any farther.