[OB] Jasnah's knowledge

[bdoble97]

I'm assuming that at least one of the people with Jasnah is Wit who may or may not have given sone pointers. Even if he did not being in shadsmaer (sorry for the incorrect spelling) for as long as she was and in the way of Kings she already was knowledgeable ahead of everybody really so just imagine how much knowledge she has now. I'm sure she was holding back even to Shallan in the beginning of Words of Radiance on what she knew.  She had she met her spend the night her father died correct that was what 6 years ago no stuff that's going to put everybody to shame hahaha. 

[Canucck]

I'm sure she'll drop some interesting knowledge bombs, but at the end of WoR, even after meeting with the highspren, Hoid basically told Jasnah "Hey, pretty much everything you wanted to accomplish for the last 6 years, Shallan has done in the last month." Remember that even though Jasnah might seem like she should be an experienced Radiant at this point, she apparently spent very little time advancing her oaths. I'm assuming that pre-assassination she was still a lvl2, and that would also limit what she could have learned from Ivory.

Besides just being a knowledgeable person, I think her biggest impact will come from meeting with the spren in shadesmar, and as a result more of them will be making the jump to the PR to form bonds. I'm still really interested to know what she's learned from the highspren and Hoid though.

[bdoble97]

8 hours ago, Canucck said:

I'm sure she'll drop some interesting knowledge bombs, but at the end of WoR, even after meeting with the highspren, Hoid basically told Jasnah "Hey, pretty much everything you wanted to accomplish for the last 6 years, Shallan has done in the last month." Remember that even though Jasnah might seem like she should be an experienced Radiant at this point, she apparently spent very little time advancing her oaths. I'm assuming that pre-assassination she was still a lvl2, and that would also limit what she could have learned from Ivory.

Besides just being a knowledgeable person, I think her biggest impact will come from meeting with the spren in shadesmar, and as a result more of them will be making the jump to the PR to form bonds. I'm still really interested to know what she's learned from the highspren and Hoid though.

I like how you assign her a level. What level would you say Shallan and Kaladin are compared to Jasnah  level 2. I was thinking that Hoid may have taught her a lot and she's going to know all kinds of Secrets. And then I went back and thought no he probably didn't tell her too much. Man Hoid is such a interesting character I wonder if you told her anything about world hopping. As I'm writing this I wonder if Vivian could be one of the people with her. More likely the people with her r new candidates for KR. Or whatever those people are called that start gaining Powers when they're around KR .  I totally forgot about her speaking with a great spren. I last Rewritten Words of Radiance two summers ago. I'm sure there's a lot I forgot.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, bdoble97 said:

I like how you assign her a level. What level would you say Shallan and Kaladin are compared to Jasnah  level 2. 

Kaladin is lv 3. Shallan seems to be lv 4 but she is not clear cut. Dalinar is also at lv 2. Levels correspond to Oaths .

Level 1: can absorb stormlight randomly

Level 2: can surgebind

Level 3: gets Shardblade and surgebinding gets cooler

Level 4: don't know

Level 5: full Radiant

Of course things are a bit more complicated as I'm no longer sure if all orders get Shardblade at the same point.

Edited November 9, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[bdoble97]

5 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Kaladin is lv 3. Shallan seems to be lv 4 but she is not clear cut. Dalinar is also at lv 2. Levels correspond to Oaths .

Level 1: can absorb stormlight randomly

Level 2: can surgebind

Level 3: gets Shardblade and surgebinding gets cooler

Level 4: don't know

Level 5: full Radiant

Of course things are a bit more complicated as I'm no longer sure if all orders get Shardblade at the same point.

Interesting what level gets shardplate level 5 full radiant? By the way  I was thinling Kaladin was getting Shardplate when the wind spren were sounding him duri g the gighstorm in the last set if chapterpn tor. What makes you think that not all KR get sharp blades. 

[dbulick]

I also took Kaladins use of the wind spren as a bit of precursor to him getting a new version of shard plate.  As far as not all radiants getting a shard blade, Dalinar will not be getting a new one.  The Stormfather says he will not be summoned whenever he is called, or something along those lines.

Edited November 9, 2017 by dbulick

[bdoble97]

17 minutes ago, dbulick said:

I also took Kaladins use of the wind spren as a bit of precursor to him getting a new version of shard plate.  As far as not all radiants getting a shard blade, Dalinar will not be getting a new one.  The Stormfather says he will not be summoned whenever he calls, or something along those lines.

Good point see another thing I forgot about the end of word of Radiance but doesn't he have the honor blade which is obviously different thing

[ScavellTane]

Pretty much why she couldn't open Kholinars Oathgate.

Edited November 9, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Awakened Cremling he/him]

Hoid also had to inform Jasnah that the Voidbringers had already returned. He was pretty blunt about it if I remember correctly. Basically was like "yeah too late to warn us about the Parshman. Some are already tranformed." That leads me to believe she may have some knew knowledge to drop but while she was in Shadesmar events might have passed by that have already revealed much of what she learned.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Jasnah has a shardblade at the end of WoR btw she forms it when she sees Hoid so she is at least on par with Kaladin if all things are equal among the orders (which they seem to not be since Shallan had a shardblade so early). I think Jasnah knew and knows a lot more than the others just kept her knowledge close to her vest. 

 

Edit: Also just FYI there was a WoB that specifically says Hoid did not come back with Jasnah to Urithiru posted in another thread. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Fourth Of The Night]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Kaladin is lv 3. Shallan seems to be lv 4 but she is not clear cut. Dalinar is also at lv 2. Levels correspond to Oaths .

Level 1: can absorb stormlight randomly

Level 2: can surgebind

Level 3: gets Shardblade and surgebinding gets cooler

Level 4: don't know

Level 5: full Radiant

Of course things are a bit more complicated as I'm no longer sure if all orders get Shardblade at the same point.

This doesn't really apply to all KR orders, mostly with respect to Shardblades. Some orders get their Blade quicker than others, Lightweavers being one of those. Shallan used Patternblade well before her on-screen Oaths(Truths).

[Marethyu316]

49 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

This doesn't really apply to all KR orders, mostly with respect to Shardblades. Some orders get their Blade quicker than others, Lightweavers being one of those. Shallan used Patternblade well before her on-screen Oaths(Truths).

I feel like it's unclear what's going on with Shallan's Oath/Truths, because she regressed so much after killing her mother. It was pretty clear that Pattern remembered things that Shallan used to be able to do that she was repressing. How that all fits into which level she was at before killing her mother and where she is now is quite confusing to me.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Yeah I don't think you can apply a "level" system to all orders of KR. From what we know Shallan only had to speak one Oath to get a shardblade (I will concede it is possible she told other truths before killing her mother). Dalinar can speak Oaths until he is blue in the face and will not receive a blade. The only clear cut one we have seen is Kaladin and we seem to want to base all the other orders off of his progression which I think is wrong. 

Edit: Forgot about Lift which is similar to Kaladin's progression but I don't think it disproves the point. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Govir]

7 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah I don't think you can apply a "level" system to all orders of KR.

I think you can, but it doesn't imply abilities. All of the orders except for Lightweavers have specific oaths that have to be spoken (and it is so far assumed they are spoken in the same order, e.g. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." is always the second Windrunner ideal). Therefore, the Levels refer to how many oaths someone has spoken. This includes the First Ideal which is shared by all orders.

In this regard, I think we only know the "level" of four characters (as of the end of Edgedancer).

• Kaladin - Level 3
• Shallan - Level 4 (only because we know from a WoB that as of the end of WoR she is one "level" higher than Kaladin)
• Dalinar - Level 2
• Lift - Level 3

Radiants of Unknown level, which I personally assume are all at least level 2.

• Jasnah
• Renarin
• Malata

Lastly, my thought on Lightweavers is that they follow the same leveling scheme, it's just that their oaths are personal and therefore different for each person. i.e. Shallan won't continuously say Truths in order to advance more and more.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Shallan can't really be used to disprove level 3-shardblade theory because apparently before her mother died she had nealy spoken all Oaths (via WoB). The biggest challange to the theory is actually Renarin. He said they needed more people with Shardblades so he tried to summon Glys, although Glys wasn't sure it would work. If the levels were solid there would be no "sure" about it. This makes me think Truthwatchers are fluid, and that he and Glys were winging it trying to summon the Blade before their time and got lucky. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

Ok that I can get on board with I just don’t think you can correlate it to getting a shardblade at a certain level and so forth as posted previously. 

I also think Jasnah is higher than level 2 we just haven’t seen it yet. 

I think Pattern specifically said there was only one oath and then only truths so not sure about your last stament unless I am remembering this incorrectly. 

[kari-no-sugata]

18 minutes ago, Govir said:

I think you can, but it doesn't imply abilities. All of the orders except for Lightweavers have specific oaths that have to be spoken (and it is so far assumed they are spoken in the same order, e.g. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." is always the second Windrunner ideal). Therefore, the Levels refer to how many oaths someone has spoken. This includes the First Ideal which is shared by all orders.

In this regard, I think we only know the "level" of four characters (as of the end of Edgedancer).

• Kaladin - Level 3
• Shallan - Level 4 (only because we know from a WoB that as of the end of WoR she is one "level" higher than Kaladin)
• Dalinar - Level 2
• Lift - Level 3

With regards to Shallan, the in-world evidence was that she could already summon a Shardblade before her Oath at the end. Of course, this doesn't prove that she was Level 3 beforehand, but it is suggestive. So she was at least "Shardblade level + 1" at the end of WoR but her exact level is unknown based on the book contents.

 

18 minutes ago, Govir said:

Radiants of Unknown level, which I personally assume are all at least level 2.

• Jasnah
• Renarin
• Malata

We don't officially know their level but they can all summon a Shardblade.

 

18 minutes ago, Govir said:

Lastly, my thought on Lightweavers is that they follow the same leveling scheme, it's just that their oaths are personal and therefore different for each person. i.e. Shallan won't continuously say Truths in order to advance more and more.

I believe it's the same for all orders - level 5 (or the equivalent) is the maximum.

With regards to Lightweavers, I have wondered what happens if (say) a person has less than 4 Truths that are meaningful. Let's say they have 3. Does that mean those 3 would be the equivalent of 4 in practice (in terms of bond strength)? Or does it mean that it only counts for 3 levels and they could never reach maximum level? Or would some minor truth count for a level then?

My best guess for Shallan is as follows: she was probably Level 4 (or Shardblade level + 1) before her mother's death but after that she regressed to Level 3 (or Shardblade level + 0). We currently have no hints (that I can see) of what Oaths/Truths Shallan swore prior to her mother's death. I don't think the truths she spoke during tWoK directly affected her bond level because those were not spoken to Pattern - effectively it was a temporary bond to a different Cryptic, probably done in order to help reboot her bond with Pattern.

[Govir]

56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to Shallan, the in-world evidence was that she could already summon a Shardblade before her Oath at the end. Of course, this doesn't prove that she was Level 3 beforehand, but it is suggestive. So she was at least "Shardblade level + 1" at the end of WoR but her exact level is unknown based on the book contents.

My whole point is that the level system does not imply abilities. We can't say "Shardblade level + 1" because each order is different. When I talk about levels, I simply mean how many oaths the Radiant has spoken (including the first Ideal shared by all orders).

Even on the Arcanum, I can't find the WoB that explicitly says the orders get the blades at different times.

However, here is the WoB on Shallans level

 

Quote

 

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

 

We know that Kaladin has said 3 oaths by the end of WoR (i.e. Level 3), therefore Shallan has said 4 (i.e. Level 4).

[Patrick Star]

4 hours ago, dbulick said:

I also took Kaladins use of the wind spren as a bit of precursor to him getting a new version of shard plate.  As far as not all radiants getting a shard blade, Dalinar will not be getting a new one.  The Stormfather says he will not be summoned whenever he is called, or something along those lines.

Of course not.  Stormfather's a greater spren.  Dalinar's gonna get a shard mech

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Referring back to the OP, Shallan also was in possession of Jasnah's most important notes after the shipwreck. As knowledgeable as Jasnah could be, there's no substitute for having years of research with meticulously transcribed quotes and interpretations.

[Starla]

8 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Jasnah has a shardblade at the end of WoR btw she forms it when she sees Hoid so she is at least on par with Kaladin if all things are equal among the orders (which they seem to not be since Shallan had a shardblade so early). I think Jasnah knew and knows a lot more than the others just kept her knowledge close to her vest. 

This reminds me of a question I had... did Jasnah have her Ivoryblade prior to the assassination attempt, or did she say the oath and achieve the blade in Shadesmar? If the latter, can a spren take blade form in Shadesmar? It's hard to imagine Big Ivory becoming a shardblade. The spren seem much more substantial in the Cognitive Realm.

[StormingTexan he/him]

5 hours ago, Govir said:

Even on the Arcanum, I can't find the WoB that explicitly says the orders get the blades at different times.

I knew I had seen this as well at one time. Here’s a couple thanks to the Arcanum.

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

In most orders, yes.

Questioner

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, um...you will find out more.

 

 

Quote

 

Kythis

Is there a specific number of the ideals that they have to do before they can get the shardblade?  

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the order.

 

 

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

9 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Edit: Also just FYI there was a WoB that specifically says Hoid did not come back with Jasnah to Urithiru posted in another thread. 

Aww!

[StormingTexan he/him]

31 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Aww!

I know.. I actually had mixed feelings when she appeared at the end of part 1 because I really wanted to see Hoid and Jasnah traveling. Maybe in an interlude but doubting it. Of course I was also thrilled to see her back and hopefully here her story.