[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Yeah, she should really ride that wind, right Kal? She really merely reminds you of Tien...

Absolutely. /s

Quote

Adolin lifted the cover, peeking in. “So . . . anything about swords in it?”

“Oh hush,” she said, and batted his arm in a playful—and somewhat nauseating—way. Yes, it was uncomfortable to watch the two of them. Kaladin liked them both . . . just not together. He forced himself to look around the room, which was occupied by lighteyes trying to drink away the sounds of the storm. He tried not to think of refugees who would be packed into stuffy public shelters, clutching their meager possessions and hoping some of what they were forced to leave behind would survive the storm.

First of all, thanks Kal for saying what we're all thinking.

Secondly, absolutely nooooo jealousy at play here.  

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

15 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Yeah, she should really ride that wind, right Kal? She really merely reminds you of Tien...

Oh yes, the suggestive writing (crediting @PhineasGage for pointing out some choice parts to me)... it's really a rabbit hole you can go down if you so choose...   This is a new one for me though, thanks for pointing out!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I think Adolin is in love with the idea of being in love. So he wants to settle down. I'm not sure that makes him ready so much as at least the most willing to put the work in for now. I'm not convinced that he'll stay that way once the gloss of the relationship has worn off a bit. 

Wouldn't that be amusing?

Both of them being like, "Yeah, that isn't exactly how I thought this would go."

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[DeployParachute]

9 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

That could work too - I am just worried that having too many level 5s might make the humans a bit OP and that makes it less interesting a read. As long as the level 5s aren't OP it is ok, but given how OP Kaladin and Shallan already are, it is something that worries me. You can only continue to have the other side level up with them before it actually starts becoming a bit ridiculous. 

Ah, the infamous "Dragon Ball Z" paradox. How too paint the continual progression of strength and power of your characters in perpetuum. 

Also, I'm curious to know just how you think Kaladin is OP? His powers have very clearly defined purposes and constraints so far that we've seen. He can do his lashings, and he might be able to control pockets of gaseous pressure soon, but it doesn't seem like we are going to have many more revealing aspects of what he can do additionally to what we have seen. His abilities seem well bounded by rules, and as readers we can pretty much guess at what the inherent limitations will be going into the future.

On the other hand, I feel that both Shallan and Jasnah are super OP. We seem to be constantly discovering new ways their powers can be used and applied, and soulcasting, as powered by sufficient stormlight, has a number of seemingly infinite possibilities not just in battle, but outside of it too. Their abilities seem to be able to be applied to large groups of people, in a variety of ways (especially illumination/transformation together resulting in soulcasted illusions?).  Kaladin's abilities have to be applied directly to people, through touch, and usually one thing/person at a time. I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.

[Starla]

A while back in this thread I commented that I felt like the “triangle” was used as a device to highlight Shallan’s identity issues. This has bugged me because it basically makes Kaladin a tool which is discarded in the end when Shallan decides that the personality who likes him has bad taste in men. I don't like Kaladin being used as a tool in Shallan's plot arc, but I suppose he was the most convenient option, being of similar age and proximity to Shallan, and nice to look at.

So along comes this comment from Brandon in last week's Reddit Beta Reader AMA (link):

Quote

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals. 

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

There was also a WOB that Shallan is getting better at the end of Oathbringer, though she still has a ways to go. This seems to confirm the idea that Shallan has validated, or committed to, a specific persona by choosing the man that particular persona prefers. And now that she has made a choice, she has set her feet on the road to recovery. This bothers me, as I have rambled on about in countless posts. Am I misinterpreting? I am hoping that if I ponder this question long enough, it will become clear at some point. 

Also, that one year gap between Books 3 and 4 is killing me. The first three books took place over seven months. Argh, so much will have changed.

[Awesomness]

@Starla Regarding this, there was an interesting discussion going on at the Shallan Davar Disgust Thread (xD)

I´ll quote one of the posts, but there was more interesting insight. 

15 hours ago, Ravioli said:

Okay, I'm going to have to take umbrage with your posts, because this is a shot at me, people I consider good friends, and all of us who worked very very hard on this thing. First of all, none of us think the book is perfect, but we are overall satisfied with how the book progressed. There was a section where we had to put what we were unsatisfied with in every Part and at the end of the book. The thing was filled to the brim, hundreds of thousands of words long. Our comments were much longer than the actual book. I personally made some very unflattering comments. However, I'll tell you a little secret, the beta readers are not all powerful. We get the third draft of the book. That means Brandon is already done with the story, plotting, and outlines. When we say "we discussed it" it means we told Brandon that something was missing or we felt left out. However, in the end, Brandon chooses to respond to our feedback or not. It's his story. He did choose to respond to some of our feedback and chose not to to others. That's his prerogative, it's his book series and his outline and his plots. So, when you say stuff like "broken promises to the reader," you made that up. No writer explicitly promises anything, you just infer that on your own. I'm sorry that what you wanted to see didn't happen, but oh well, everyone has stuff that they want in a book that they don't get to see. However, we all thought it was a good book and were satisfied overall. The book was so much more than the stuff you're pointing out. That is why we're saying "so much else was happening." Because we noticed and commented on how these things were missing, but we also saw why they weren't included. It's called giving objective feedback. If we all gave feedback on what we wanted as fans, the book would be terrible. 

Also, your other comment about who was chosen. There are more communities than 17S and people can express their love of the fandom in many different ways. Also, if only superfans tested the book, then the book would not appeal to the vast majority of people, you know, the ones who actually make these books a success. We are in the vast vast minority, and other voices also need to be heard. Brandon tries to makes sure that the entire range of his fandom is represented in his beta group.

Quote

maxal Just my two cents (FWIW) is that the beta readers were used to pressure test how he wanted the book to come across to readers. This means they may have reacted to a certain storyline and he was like, yes, that’s how I wanted them to react. Or they reacted in a certain way, and he was like, hmmm, I should tweak so I get my intended reaction. Note his intended reaction may not be that a certain storyline in neatly wrapped up! He may want readers wondering what happened to the Sadeas murder plot. We don’t know. But we do know that for some storylines (i.e. the romance arc) he took a lot of feedback and tweaked the storyline to try to get across what he wanted to get across. But we don’t know what he wanted to get across. And we don’t know why. (And neither do the betas, though they may have slightly more of an idea based on what feedback was taken and ignored or how a plot was modified as related to the feedback.) Chaos let me know if I’m mischaracterizing this! I appreciate all this insight!

^This, exactly this. Spot on.

Personally, it gives me a little hope to know this matters were addressed and discussed.

[Rainier]

6 hours ago, Ailvara said:

So, as a newly self-appointed SS Shalladin's devil's advocate

Ship's....lawyer? Sure, why not. 

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

There is so much foreshadowing and plenty of it cannot be dismissed as only being wishful thinking.

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Want a list of all the foreshadowing? We can definitely provide - we've been thinking about this a long time now.

4 hours ago, Awesomness said:

So, right now, I don't think they could be together if she hadn't chosen Adolin. But I refuse to think all that foreshadowing went down the loo with her marriage...

Ah, but can we tell what's foreshadowing and what's our own wishful thinking? I agree with you both that the foreshadowing in pointing due Shalladin, but I also acknowledge my own expectations and, yes, wishful thinking.

Also, it's good to be back. I'll try to contain myself to this thread, although I must say I enjoyed seeing both Adolin-hate and Shallan-hate threads on the frontpage. Everybody has their own little space, I suppose, although the latter moving too quickly for me to really catch up. When you have a point you want to respond to on the first page, but the thread is five pages deep already...

2 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Find me a similar suggestive thought process in Shadolin, I dare you... at this point I am starting to think that all these constant "wind" innuendos are unintentional and Brandon is wholly oblivious to writing them, seeing as what he apparently considers the proper pairing.

There is it again, wishful thinking or deliberate foreshadowing. We can tell where you're coming down on this topic.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Rainier said:

There is it again, wishful thinking or deliberate foreshadowing. We can tell where you're coming down on this topic.

Let us call them... easily misunderstood hints? If we are looking at it from the current canon.

Still this constant mention of wind in combination with Shallan and the strong connection between Kaladin and wind seems so clear... sigh

[Dreamstorm]

4 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Ah, but can we tell what's foreshadowing and what's our own wishful thinking? I agree with you both that the foreshadowing in pointing due Shalladin, but I also acknowledge my own expectations and, yes, wishful thinking.

.....

There is it again, wishful thinking or deliberate foreshadowing. We can tell where you're coming down on this topic.

So, I'm going to have to disagree a little bit here because I think there's a difference between wishful thinking in how you want the character arcs to proceed and analyzing what the author puts in front of you.  Maybe some fans were predisposed to want Kaladin and Shallan to be together before you even opened the book, but I bet most of us weren't.  I'm going to paste in something I wrote in a PM that I think pertains to this...

I think shipping has two components: (i) who you as a reader want to see character S end up with and (ii) what clues you're picking up from the author about who character S will end up with.  I see (i) as being very contentious in fandoms (and a lot of what I see on 17th shard - arguments about how Kaladin is better for Shallan because of x,y,z versus Adolin for a,b,c) and something which is impossible to resolve - based on our varying experiences, we as people want different things from relationships so readers will have varying views about what they want for the character!  (For example, I'm not even team Shalladin from this perspective, as I personally think Kaladin would be better with a younger Jasnah type - probably because Jasnah is my type of female protagonist, so that's what I want our main hero to want/get.)  BUT (my huge but), I see (ii) as pretty objective in a well-written book; the author should be leading you down the path of selecting one option.  That doesn't mean people who like one character versus another based on (i) will always be happy, but it should make sense in retrospect that the author was leading you there all along.  Besides the fact I hate how Shallan made her Adolin decision (a reaction which falls into (i) since it is emotional and related to what I, myself, want to see), I find it very clear from a literary perspective that (ii) is leading to Kaladin.  And if it's not, Brandon has really screwed it up from a literary perspective because although we can argue the emotional appeal of either choice until we're blue in the face, I see all of the subtle clues leading to Kaladin.  Maybe it's a big red herring, but I don't think Brandon is that kind of author.  I will definitely have disappointment if things don't proceed like I expect because I will have less trust in the author's craftsmanship, so I want to avoid that disappointment 

I feel like for me (and likely some others), the only wishful thinking that is going on is that I am hopeful that where it seems the author is leading us ((ii) in the above) is where we are actually going.  I strongly want that to be the case, so yes, I am interpreting the WoBs and such from that perspective, but I don't think it's tied to my emotional response to the characters; it's tied to not wanting to have been misled (either intentionally or through poor execution.)

One thing I would love to see from anyone is foreshadowing/literary subtext in support of Shadolin.  I totally feel convinced from what we overtly see on the page that they could have a productive relationship (don't want to argue this point since I know others differ in this view), but I don't feel guided into that conclusion by less obvious means.  Can anyone find something?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

One thing I would love to see from anyone is foreshadowing/literary subtext in support of Shadolin.  I totally feel convinced from what we overtly see on the page that they could have a productive relationship (don't want to argue this point since I know others differ in this view), but I don't feel guided into that conclusion by less obvious means.  Can anyone find something?

See, the thing is, that actually wouldn't need it. I agree, that it would be nice to see something more substantial as "he knows me" and "without you I fade", because while I agree, that they might be able to have a productive relationship, so could Kaladin and Shallan. But shouldn't a romantic plot be based on love,trust and selflessness? You see, when I look at Adolin and Shallan I see love, trust and selflessness... but only on one side - Adolin. Shallan never has given me the impression, that she really loves Adolin (I know, that she tells it to herself, but we know how good Shallan is at lying to herself - I'd never consider her to be a reliable narrator, not in her current state), nor that she trusts him (her lack of telling him about her past) and nor do I see selflessness (quite the opposite, she's acting rather selfish, by seeing the wedding as a celebration of herself).

But do they need subtle hints? No, not really. The possibility of the outcome we have now has been slapped in our face at the beginning of WoR - with the causal betrothal.

What bugs me is that the hinting isn't stopping (Veil still not being fond of Adolin, that god damnation sapphire wedding dress and, of course, the boots).

And what is funny is, that due to the chasm scene, partly the scene on the boat and the other hints, I feel like, that Shallan's and Kaladin's relationship has more substance than Shadolin. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[+Bliev she/her]

@Starla I was just coming here to post similarly re: the WOB on this, which I think is related a lot to this. Brandon wanted Shallan to choose Adolin, and used the "triangle" as a plot point to demonstrate Shallan's personality/identity issues, not because he ever intended them to end up together. I know that's not at all how many readers interpreted it, of course. And it's true that once you release a book, you can't always control what interpretations people take from them. The below WOB is from the second you were referring to, posted here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/61704-uk-oathbringer-tour-forbidden-planet’s-london-megastore-2017-11-28/?do=findComment&comment=644684

Spoiler

 

Two things that stood out to me:

I think it's interesting that Brandon intended that (a) Adolin saw the "real" Shallan not bc of magic or because of chance but because he was paying so much attention to her. To me, that seems to be the major thing for Shallan, that someone loves her enough (no matter whether that love is mature/fully actualized/whatever) to pay attention to her and her struggles. She didn't have to act for him. And that gives her strength. And (b) that Shallan's ability to (mostly) control her personas and understand them, and to choose, was a big development for her character (and that Wit would agree). This supports my initial interpretation, which I was beginning to doubt after spending days on the forums! haha

 

 

For the record, I agree that I wish she didn't feel she needed Adolin to heal, it definitely seems more dependent than independent. Then again, we can't all be Jasnah and have her independence, I suppose. I see it a lot like how Dalinar healed and gained strength from Navani--once he let her in, and embraced her love and support, he was able to see himself as the man she saw. And sometimes that's just the impetus someone needs. Unconditional support--to give us a "comfy home base" free of judgment. Now, it remains to be seen whether Adolin will be that for her. But she thinks that he will be, and thus she makes her choice. Considering the overall theme of the book, I think the fact that she chooses at all is a major development for her. 

(my apologies to anyone for reiterating any points from pages 30-44, btw...I was keeping up for a bit and then sick kid made me miss a few days, lol)

[insert_anagram_here]

3 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Shallan/Adolin just feels so vanilla/passionless in comparison to Shalladin. Just randomly flipping through the book:

Yeah, she should really ride that wind, right Kal? She really merely reminds you of Tien...

Find me a similar suggestive thought process in Shadolin, I dare you... at this point I am starting to think that all these constant "wind" innuendos are unintentional and Brandon is wholly oblivious to writing them, seeing as what he apparently considers the proper pairing.

@analyticaposteriori if only I could give you more reputation...

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Spoiler

I think it's interesting that Brandon intended that (a) Adolin saw the "real" Shallan not bc of magic or because of chance but because he was paying so much attention to her. To me, that seems to be the major thing for Shallan, that someone loves her enough (no matter whether that love is mature/fully actualized/whatever) to pay attention to her and her struggles. She didn't have to act for him. And that gives her strength. And (b) that Shallan's ability to (mostly) control her personas and understand them, and to choose, was a big development for her character (and that Wit would agree). This supports my initial interpretation, which I was beginning to doubt after spending days on the forums! haha

 

I'll just assume, that the passage in the spoiler is your interpretation right?

The WoB merely states, that Adolin recognized her, because he picked up visual cues. This merely means, that he was more perceptive right there and that is why Shallan chose Adolin. See, love... love is nothing conditional. Love is just there. If she really feels loved by Adolin, why does she need this recognition to make the decision in the first place? Shallan's justification from the text is not that she feels loved, but recognized. If that means the same, okay, but I have no evidence, that it does. Feeling silly and giddy is not love, it is a sign of passion and infatuation, but love... is something else. Passion goes, love stays.

Secondly, Hoid merely would acknowledge it as a step forward, but would state, that she has long ways to go. There is no quantification put onto it, so I don't think, that there is any need to speak about big development.

[Dreamstorm]

35 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But do they need subtle hints? No, not really. The possibility of the outcome we have now has been slapped in our face at the beginning of WoR - with the causal betrothal.

What bugs me is that the hinting isn't stopping (Veil still not being fond of Adolin, that god damnation sapphire wedding dress and, of course, the boots).

What I'm trying to do is see what kind of evidence is on the Shadolin side equivalent to those little things you mentioned.  For instance, in the scene where Shallan chooses Adolin, she is sitting down and then when Kaladin lands on the wall, she stands up.  If that had been reversed, I would see that as a subtle clue that Brandon was guiding the reader towards Adolin being the "correct" choice.  I want to see if anyone can find those foreshadowing, less obvious moments which point to Adolin.  Otherwise, I don't see how you can ignore the Kaladin foreshadowing.

35 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And what is funny is, that due to the chasm scene, partly the scene on the boat and the other hints, I feel like, that Shallan's and Kaladin's relationship has more substance than Shadolin. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

But this is your personal, emotional opinion.  There's nothing wrong with that, but you're not going to convince anyone whose personal, emotional opinion is that Adolin is more stable for Shallan and that she should choose stability rather than the more intense relationship with Kaladin (or whatever any given Shadolin fan's opinion is - any and all of them are valid.)  My point is that we can vary in our personal opinions in who is the better choice for Shallan - that's so personal and very much shaped by our diverse experiences.  But, there IS an absolute truth about where the author is pointing us (or there should be, and based on what Brandon says in lectures, he subscribes to this), and so there is likely a way to objectively, taking one's emotions out of it, tease out that truth.  I don't see any "teasing out" going on with Adolin and I see so storming much with Kaladin, that I was fully won over to the Shalladin side.

28 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I think it's interesting that Brandon intended that (a) Adolin saw the "real" Shallan not bc of magic or because of chance but because he was paying so much attention to her. To me, that seems to be the major thing for Shallan, that someone loves her enough (no matter whether that love is mature/fully actualized/whatever) to pay attention to her and her struggles. She didn't have to act for him. And that gives her strength. And (b) that Shallan's ability to (mostly) control her personas and understand them, and to choose, was a big development for her character (and that Wit would agree).

I think you are quoting someone else... but what was really said what Adolin picks up on subtle clues which are related to Shallan's Lightweaving and so he notices when she is changing.  ("I'm pretty sure that Brandon said/implied that Shallan was unconsciously doing subtle Lightweaving each time her personas were shifting here.")  I personally speculate that this isn't that profound - I think it's just eye color (Shallan is lighteyed, Veil is darkeyed, Radiant is presumably glowing-eyed), but that's just speculation on my part.  On the second, Brandon didn't say it was a big development, he said that she had made some progress but had a ways to go.  ("The answer was that Wit would consider her to have made a step forwards, but still has a ways to go.")  Big difference in the emphasis!  

Also, the WoB on the fact Shallan is one person in the spiritual realm I think contradicts that idea that she's actually becoming different people when she becomes Veil and Radiant - so there was no "real" Shallan for Adolin to see.  She is all of them wrapped together.

@Bliev Just wanted to add that your interpretations of the scene and what it meant to Shallan are totally valid, so I don't want to knock them.  My big thing about that scene is that Shallan is sitting down when she talks with Adolin (and he sees the real her or whatever) and then she stands up when Kaladin lands.  This has enormous symbolism for Shallan's character as the author told us (very explicitly) in her chapter with Wit called "The Girl Who Stood Up."  This is the stuff I can't get past - that's such an easy tweak for Brandon to have Shallan standing up when she talks to Adolin and then sit down when Kaladin lands.  The fact it's written the way it is means that it is either intentional (wants us to see this symbolism and know that it means something) or sloppy (forgot he established this symbolism in the first place/doesn't follow through with it.)  I just can't see another way to interpret it, and I choose intentional over sloppy.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But this is your personal, emotional opinion.  There's nothing wrong with that, but you're not going to convince anyone whose personal, emotional opinion is that Adolin is more stable for Shallan and that's what she should choose stability rather than the more intense relationship with Kaladin (or whatever any given Shadolin fan's opinion is - any and all of them are valid.)  My point is that we can vary in our personal opinions in who is the better choice for Shallan - that's so personal and very much shaped by our diverse experiences.

That is true. Point taken.

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But, there IS an absolute truth about where the author is pointing us (or there should be, and based on what Brandon says in lectures, he subscribes to this), and so there is likely a way to objectively, taking one's emotions out of it, tease out that truth.  I don't see any "teasing out" going on with Adolin and I see so storming much with Kaladin, that I was fully won over to the Shalladin side.

Also true. It really is a difficult topic to discuss.

[DeployParachute]

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I actually think by marrying Shallan, Adolin has painted a great big "kill me" sign on his back. Someone's gonna end up geting him. 

Glad you mentioned this, because I wanted to say something similar on another thread, but it was too off topic, even for my standards.

See, this was part of my problem with realizing that Adolin was going to have little to no character arc or narrative during OB. Let's break down where this character stands now after the flop that I believe the handling of his narrative has been.

1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. 

2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore.

So, if Adolin does not have any more personal character arcs or growth to achieve (and no, sorry, I do not see "figure out how to revive my dead shardblade" as very important to the greater narrative), what purpose is he going to serve within the future books. Glad you asked ( though I know you didn't):

1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner.

2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has.

3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society

4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

[invisbleblue]

I'm not going to bother reading everything here so i'll just drop this:

I think she and Kaladin are making the wrong choice. Shallan and Kaladin's relationship has only just begun. Like Dalinar before him, Kaladin capitulated out of friendship and authority  at the expense of not only himself but Shallan too. Whatever Adolin has to offer, words of encouragement, stability and intimacy of the flesh won't be what satiates her soul, her yearning and her sense of purpose. Kaladin on the other hand offers her an intimacy of the soul, the deep understanding of being broken and something to work towards, to mend and fix. In my opinion women in this series have been represented in a very unique light, one that has given me a new perspective. Where some of us men might feel an innate desire to protect and provide for and shatter at the sight of a crying woman, some women might have a similar compulsion towards broken men or men who are somehow wrong or rough on the edges, to fix them or make them whole. A purpose whose reward and compulsion could be greater than stability and the safety of comfort. Dalinar, Navani and Evi are all painted in this light. A broken and quite evil of a man backed by women who could have gotten a much more comfortable accommodation, later to be shaped by these same women into something greater. The women in this book are very cultivation like. Adolin is a dun seed, a dun sphere, vanilla ice cream whereas Kaladin is a tempest, a storm with a gravitational pull of his own.

It's very difficult to put my thoughts into words. They're not really well fleshed out yet but they do make sense in my head. I've been wrong before, like the murder. The author doesn't seem to always put a cliffhanger in order to follow up but also as a feint. With ASK triangle we've got the only sliver of romance in the series and i doubt the author will allow this tension to dissipate without adding a new romance or a romantic tension/development into the book. Adoshall marriage would be all fluff and if kaladin trully accepted this you'd suddenly lose love in the book and i think that's unlikely. Shallan is still clinging onto the locked up and  tormented veden self which is not who she really is. Shallan is the girl that ran off on her own, with no parents and a sack of money across the dangerous world to pursue adventure and discovery, not the homely, courtly gal that'd settle for being comfortable. She's the girl that stares down the tempest and shapes it and not one to dally with dun spheres.

Also Kaladin should absolutely not stay alone. He's terrifyingly broken, disillusioned and burdened by what's happening around him and while syl, she's managing to stop him off the figurative cliff, time and time again it is not enough for him. He is stuck. He doesn't just need a woman but a sun that would radiate warmth and hope into his life. I think Shallan with her equally troubled past, a witty tongue and a sense of adventure that would keep his feet moving or his spheres running dry would match him perfectly.

Edited December 4, 2017 by invisbleblue

[Dreamstorm]

24 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

Ugh, your reasoning is very solid, which does not make me happy   I'm totally fine with Adolin being the light, fun, agreeable, non-dramatic foil to the rest of our characters who provides support and gentle nudging in their more substantial arcs.  From a Shallan perspective, I don't want her self-revelation to come from distress over Adolin's death - I think it would weaken that revelation, and also (assuming this happens) weaken any future relationship with Kaladin.  But, laid out like that, it does make literary sense  

@invisbleblue welcome aboard the SS Shalladin!

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Ailvara]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ugh, your reasoning is very solid, which does not make me happy   I'm totally fine with Adolin being the light, fun, agreeable, non-dramatic foil to the rest of our characters who provides support and gentle nudging in their more substantial arcs.  From a Shallan perspective, I don't want her self-revelation to come from distress over Adolin's death - I think it would weaken that revelation, and also (assuming this happens) weaken any future relationship with Kaladin.  But, laid out like that, it does make literary sense  

I would rather expect Adolin's death to be partly influenced by Shallan's revelation; now wouldn't that be tragic (and very interesting). 

[insert_anagram_here]

2 hours ago, Starla said:

So along comes this comment from Brandon in last week's Reddit Beta Reader AMA (link):

Quote

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals. 

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

I see this a lot on the forums on justifying the Shallan - Adolin perspective as a proper ending, but I believe it actually proves the opposite.

1. BS states here that the romantic angle was tweaked as he was building up the split personality approach. Not that the romantic angle was created to reference the split personality approach. The romantic angle preexisted the split personalities, so the argument that Kaladin's emotions are used as a plot device is null and void. 

(and none of this is new, since the chemistry between Shallan and Kaladin was obvious in the chasm scene in WoR, the the split personas as an issue surfaced in OB)

2. The fact that BS has taken such good care building the romantic (tri)angle, proves that he wanted both outcomes to be able to convince the readers. So all the foreshadowing and clues are obviously done deliberately and since nothing really ever happened between Shallan and Kaladin, it's pretty obvious we should expect something to happen there. At some point. I just don't know how soon that will be.

 

@invisbleblue sorry I've run out of reputation points to give you  but I'd like you to know I loved your post.

6 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

The women in this book are very cultivation like.

This particular bit reminded me of this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8310

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

As you look at the Double Eye, is there a pattern for Honor and Cultivation's disparate influences on each Surge or Order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are philosophers who think that there are, but-- it is more straightforward than those philosophers think it is.

Coincidence ? I do not think so...

 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

I may be a horrible person for saying/thinking this. But it would be fascinating if Shallan was the one who killed Adolin. There are a few ways that might end up happening too. That would be a fun road to go down.

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

And if it's not, Brandon has really screwed it up from a literary perspective because although we can argue the emotional appeal of either choice until we're blue in the face, I see all of the subtle clues leading to Kaladin.  Maybe it's a big red herring, but I don't think Brandon is that kind of author.

51 minutes ago, SLNC said:

What bugs me is that the hinting isn't stopping (Veil still not being fond of Adolin, that god damnation sapphire wedding dress and, of course, the boots).

So maybe not a red herring, but a blue herring.

34 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

There's nothing wrong with that, but you're not going to convince anyone whose personal, emotional opinion is that Adolin is more stable for Shallan and that she should choose stability rather than the more intense relationship with Kaladin (or whatever any given Shadolin fan's opinion is - any and all of them are valid.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think shipping has two components: (i) who you as a reader want to see character S end up with and (ii) what clues you're picking up from the author about who character S will end up with. 

I'm trying to figure out what I'm actually wanting and more importantly why I want those things, and I think I've come to something of a realization. The character I'm most invested (hah, more bad puns) in is easily Kaladin. He's the one I see as myself in the story (because nobody sees themselves as slaughtered bridgeman #27) and he's the one who success and failure feels most personal, in a way that simply doesn't hold with Jasnah, Adolin, or Shallan (Dalinar is my #2, so I'm more invested in him than these others, too). What this means is that I don't really care if Shallan is strong or weak, dependent or independent, because to me she's a character in Kaladin's story (and Dalinar's, to a certain extent). She can be other things to other people, but this is my personal, emotional opinion. 

Spoiler

By the way, this is why my favorite scene is still, easily, the scene at the Tower. Do windspren create the wind, or are they drawn to it? That combined with Adolin at his best, accepting death and honor and deciding that he'd rather go down trusting Dalinar than live having betrayed him. See how everyone revolves around Kaladin and Dalinar?

Now, this is all #1 from your criteria. This is how I read, and what I want when I'm reading. What this means is that I want Kaladin to get the girl that's the object of his affections, in this case Shallan. 

But it's #2 that led me to believe that Kaladin wants Shallan. It's the clues about their connection, their subtle similarities despite their obvious differences, that made her into (what I think is) the object of Kaladin's desire. It's #2 that makes me angry because while I'm firmly on Kaladin's side in everything because of #1, it's because of #2 that I'm on Kaladin's side vs Adolin in the Great Shallan Shipping Wars (2014-present). 

8 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

I'm not going to bother reading everything here

Don't worry, nobody is going to hold that against you, and frankly one of the reasons it was closed for a week or two is because it was getting repetitive. 

9 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

Kaladin on the other hand offers her an intimacy of the soul

This is a wonderfully succinct way to put it that also plays on the realmatic theories we all know and love so much with the Body/Mind/Soul as a person's connection to the Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual realms. Your entire post is quite good, as evidenced by the quick accumulation of credit you're getting. For what it's worth, most people still sticking around this long seem to be working on a similar idea: that this can't be it for the triangle because of all the foreshadowing and hints.

[DeployParachute]

29 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm totally fine with Adolin being the light, fun, agreeable, non-dramatic foil to the rest of our characters who provides support and gentle nudging in their more substantial arcs.  From a Shallan perspective, I don't want her self-revelation to come from distress over Adolin's death - I think it would weaken that revelation, and also (assuming this happens) weaken any future relationship with Kaladin. 

@invisbleblue

Agreed, I would wish for her realizations to come from a more internal place, but frankly, that had not been par for the course from what we have seen for her so far. Confronting hard truths has always seemed to be forced upon her from outside actors. I'd argue that future growth is likely to follow this trend.

So let's go further and talk about plotting support for an Adolin death scenario. Brandon had told us that he specifically worked at showing the reader that Shallan is capable of loving two different men for different reasons. As a Shalladin shipper, I can still recognize that the part of Shallan that loves Adolin is real, and has backing and support from the text. I also don't believe Brandon is the kind of person who believes that there is "the one" for everyone. He is more of "the one you choose" and that ties in heavily to where you are at in life, and what your goals are at that point in time. 

So, if you are Brandon, and you are exploring this facet of relationships and life goals changing over time using your main characters, how do you go about painting a convincing picture of a woman loving two men over the course of her life? Well, you lay out the foundation for feelings to be able to be present for both men, which he has done. Then it's a matter of exploring how one relationship ends, and the next begins. For Brandon, who has very pronounced religious views when it comes to honoring oaths and commitments for marriage, what are your options? I believe that divorce or adultery are still topics that Brandon would find he'd rather avoid for now (but I'm not saying he won't ever). So what is not taboo at this point? Death. Currently a widower being remarried is kosher, a divorcee is not. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by DeployParachute

[insert_anagram_here]

29 minutes ago, Rainier said:

What this means is that I want Kaladin to get the girl that's the object of his affections, in this case Shallan. 

But it's #2 that led me to believe that Kaladin wants Shallan. It's the clues about their connection, their subtle similarities despite their obvious differences, that made her into (what I think is) the object of Kaladin's desire.

Yes, I agree completely and the foreshadowing has always been there indicating towards this right from the beginning of tWoK. And the more you re-read the books form the beginning the more obvious it becomes.

What was the ship's name that brought Shallan in Kharbranth and into the focal point in the beginning of our story ? "Wind's Pleasure"

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Edited December 4, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

What was the ship's name that brought Shallan in Kharbranth and into the focal point in the beginning of our story ? "Wind's Pleasure" ...Coincidence? I don't think so.

Quote

“Ha!” the captain said, turning to Shallan. “The hunt is over!”
“Bless the Heralds,” Shallan said softly.
The captain smiled, flamboyant eyebrows looking like streaks of light coming from his eyes. “It must be your beautiful face that brought us this favorable wind! The windspren themselves were entranced by you, Brightness Shallan, and led us here!”

cough

Right on the same ship

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC