[OB] Szeth and Nightblood

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I think what is going on with Szeth and Nightblood is one of the biggest remaining questions of OB. Some facts that happen on Oathbringer:

• Szeth uses Nightblood
• Highspren are paying attention to Szeth
• Szeth is accepted as a squire by a 3rd (maybe 4th) level Skybreaker
• Szeth swears the first Three Oaths of the Skybreakers

So...how exactly do those things come together? Options:

A. Szeth gains his powers from Nightblood

• Why couldn't he draw stormlight until he was accepted as squire then?
• Why is he getting the exact skybreaker surges?
• Why is he needing to swear Skybreaker Oaths? I really doubt Nightblood cares about the Ideals of the Skybreakers

B. Szeth gained his powers from the Skybreaker that took him as a squire 

• He went quite far from his knight, unlikely squire Skybreaker abilities stretch that far (specially if Windrunners are constrained to 50 miles considering Windrunners have the strongest squires)

C. Szeth gained his powers from Skybreaker Radiant until he swore Third Oath then he gained them from Nightblood

• Same problems as A and B, as he still went too far from KR before swearing the 3rd Oath

D. He bonded a highspren when he said the Second Ideal

• Where is the highspren?
  • He has seen them around, but if he bonded one specifically shouldn't it be more obvious?
  • Shouldn't the spren talk to him?
• That would however be impressive, shardblade spren + Nightblood? Evil run for your life .

If anyone has any ideas on what might be going on with Szeth and by extension Nightblood I'd really appreciate the input, as at the moment I'm stumped.

Edited November 18, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Darvys]

I believe Szeth had already bonded a spren as a child, the voice he mentioned hearing long ago similar to Nightblood's. Like Shallan the bond would have been there but dormant until he again spoke the oaths. Why the spren isn't visible despite Szeth feeling it's approval after the 3rd oath, i can't quite figure. Now that we know dual wielding is a thing, and knowing what Szeth can do already ... Odium should just go take a break for a few decades and wait for the current cast to die off really.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I think there is a separate Highspren but no idea why we haven't seen it yet 

[Sigsyl]

Is it possible that Naln being there maintained Szeth's squirehood with him being both the Herald and leader of the Skybreaker order? Maybe the Skybreaker who adopted him as a "squire" meant it more in the sense that she'd help him with his training etc. rather than his power being linked to hers? 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

On the subject of Nin, bets on a last minute, what have I done, Heel-Face turn and self-sacrifice to rescue our heroes when they look doomed?

[Darvys]

8 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

On the subject of Nin, bets on a last minute, what have I done, Heel-Face turn and self-sacrifice to rescue our heroes when they look doomed?

I think it'll depend on how Odium plays his conquest, so far he seems to want to keep both sides on the edge of morality until he's ready to sweep humanity from Roshar. Nale hasn't made it clear how far he'll be willing to follw Odium, the fact he is a full Skybreaker might be the ray of hope we can cling to, the fifth ideal makes it so that only his own judgement matters, he might hide behind the listener laws for now, but the moment they swerve from what he sees as just he'll probably take action against their god. I hope so anyway, i kind of like the guy.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

2 minutes ago, Darvys said:

I think it'll depend on how Odium plays his conquest, so far he seems to want to keep both sides on the edge of morality until he's ready to sweep humanity from Roshar. Nale hasn't made it clear how far he'll be willing to follw Odium, the fact he is a full Skybreaker might be the ray of hope we can cling to, the fifth ideal makes it so that only his own judgement matters, he might hide behind the listener laws for now, but the moment they swerve from what he sees as just he'll probably take action against their god. I hope so anyway, i kind of like the guy.

Or Jasnah writes another masterclass work of art logical essay...

[DSC01 he/him]

I have been thinking all along that because Nightblood is essentially an artificial spren, he ought to be able to form a bond on Roshar. That doesn't really seem to be the case at the moment, though. Szeth's powers do seem to come from a highspren.

I'm getting the sense that things don't quite work the way that we've been thinking--at least not for all of the orders. The highspren seem to have a different relationship to their Knights than the other orders. If the others' spren are like their childhood friends to them, then the Skybreakers' are like a work friend, the kind that you are friendly with on the job but never consider hanging out with outside of work.

On the other hand, maybe Nightblood's constant prattling has kept the not yet fully sentient, newly crossed over highspren at bay. Most of the newly crossed spren seem very timid, as well as being total dunces, so it would make sense for one to keep its distance with a frankenspren about.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

If Nightblood formed a Bond, surely it would be a unique one with unique powers? He's not exactly a Highspren - the law is not his driver, but his Command to DESTROY!!! EVIL!!!

Though maybe that's close enough?

 

All I know for sure is that once the Radiants discover the scope of what Nightblood can do, they have their most deadly weapon against the forces of Odium, and maybe something threatening enough to Odium (I don't think it can kill him, but surely it can do a lot of harm, and Odium appears to have a fair bit of fear in him, hidden away) that they can bargain into another Oathpact or whatever.

 

Or just use Szeth plus Nightblood as the Champion of Honor

Edited November 18, 2017 by IndigoAjah

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, Sigsyl said:

Is it possible that Naln being there maintained Szeth's squirehood with him being both the Herald and leader of the Skybreaker order? Maybe the Skybreaker who adopted him as a "squire" meant it more in the sense that she'd help him with his training etc. rather than his power being linked to hers? 

We know Heralds can't have squires, but it would be an interesting question what comes first for these rules. Herald or Knight?

1 hour ago, IndigoAjah said:

On the subject of Nin, bets on a last minute, what have I done, Heel-Face turn and self-sacrifice to rescue our heroes when they look doomed?

I'm a bit less certain of this than 50%, maybe 40% sure that will happen. But thats a lot more certain than of T or Moash turning around. If it does happen it will probably be Lift who wakes him up. Honestly, Nale should just shift his 3rd Oath to follow Lift . That'd be hilarious, the 13 years old girl everyone with power (Nale, Fused) originally laughs at considering beneath their notice with a Herald sworn to see her will as the law . On that topic, I think we need more Edgedancers yesterday. They seem to be both the glue that keeps orders (and people) together, and the people that do those small details that allow others to focus on bigger things. 

35 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I have been thinking all along that because Nightblood is essentially an artificial spren, he ought to be able to form a bond on Roshar. That doesn't really seem to be the case at the moment, though. Szeth's powers do seem to come from a highspren.

I'm getting the sense that things don't quite work the way that we've been thinking--at least not for all of the orders. The highspren seem to have a different relationship to their Knights than the other orders. If the others' spren are like their childhood friends to them, then the Skybreakers' are like a work friend, the kind that you are friendly with on the job but never consider hanging out with outside of work.

On the other hand, maybe Nightblood's constant prattling has kept the not yet fully sentient, newly crossed over highspren at bay. Most of the newly crossed spren seem very timid, as well as being total dunces, so it would make sense for one to keep its distance with a frankenspren about.

See, this is why originally I thought no highspren would bond Szeth. I don't know what Nightblood looks like on the cognitive realm but I bet its terrifying. Its a good thing Szeth wasn't with the group that ended up on Shadesmar, or their first glimpse of Nightblood would have probably sent them screaming into some Voidspren. 

Plus...I'm fairly certain if Nightblood eats Szeth (as he already nearly did once) he would likely swallow too any spren bonded to Szeth. Odd that a highspren would take that risk anyway. Unless the fair possibility mentioned above that the spren was originally bonded to Szeth since childhood. 

31 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

All I know for sure is that once the Radiants discover the scope of what Nightblood can do, they have their most deadly weapon against the forces of Odium, and maybe something threatening enough to Odium (I don't think it can kill him, but surely it can do a lot of harm, and Odium appears to have a fair bit of fear in him, hidden away) that they can bargain into another Oathpact or whatever.

YESSS. They really need to send Szeth flying into the Everstorm with Nightblood drawn. There should be plenty of investure there and if not just feed on the souls of the Voidbringers, which work as investure too. 

31 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Or just use Szeth plus Nightblood as the Champion of Honor

I kept expecting since one third of the book this to happen . Dalinar as Odium's, Szeth+Nightblood as Honor's. Seems it didn't happen...at least not yet.

[+Bliev she/her]

@WhiteLeeopard you know, i think it’s pertinent what Nale specifically says: that he’s chosen to follow the Parsh and their laws, not Odium per se. And that many sky breakers have chosen to follow him. That sets up the possibility of a Parsh (e.g. venli??) convincing him that the Parsh law is not as clear as Nale thinks it is? I think it’s a bit more than 50% that they play a role against Odium in the end—but who knows.

 

And on the “more Edgedancers” tip: yesssssss. I think the epigraph about them when the Radiants left Urithiru is so interesting: that they were in charge of resettling the people and evacuating them, and that they’d be hit hardest by the abandonment. So true.