Words of Radiance Reactions (SPOILERS)

[Mr Maker]

I loved the book.

 

I only had a few minor gripes.

 

1. Kaladin's Oath:
I would have preferred it to be something like:
"I will forgive/protect those who deserve (my) vengeance"

 

2. Seth Dying and being brought back:
If he needed to live, I would have preferred Kaladin beating him soundly winning the honour blade, leaving him alive but with no purpose, tortured by the unnecessary death he had caused. Then darkness (can't remember the herald's name) could have turned up.

 

3. Oathgate: I didn't like the Oathgate being referred to as a 'Portal'

Edited March 19, 2014 by Mr Maker

[MistLord he/him]

I have a list of sentences as reactions from when I read them. Full book spoilers, obviously, and warning for excessive caps and boldness.

Sooo, I didn’t start transcribing until chapter thirteen, where Pattern mentions spren…of him. I went, out loud no less, “woahwoahwoahwoahwoahwoahwoah.”That’s… Woah.

HAHAHAHA Shallan has to milk Knobweeds now whilst Kaladin just buys the sap. Irony!

Oh Pattern’s a recording device kthxbai.

AWWWWW YEAAAAAAAAAH. Kaladin decides to stick Amaram with a spear HECK YES. Wait, cancel that, a knife so he feels it going in. YEEEEEEEEAH.

Kaladin accepts Dalinar as honorable? YEEEEEEAH.

ASKDHVNEKVAWEKVNWEKNVAWEKVNAWKNKWEF SUCH CASUAL REVEALS! THE SHARDS WEREN’T ABOMANATIONS WHEN THE RADIANTS CARRIED THEM! THERE ARE MAYBE NO RIGHT PEOPLE FOR THEM ANYMORE MAYBE THERE NEVER WERE AIODFNJKF.NK;LGNFAJK;VN

SJLGHSJKDFBVFHLAKJCVH,BFL WHEN ONE PAGE LATER DARKNESS ARRIVES AJSDFHJK.DFHAK.JDFHASDJK.F HE HAS A SCAR ON HIS CHEEK AND IS WATCHING ADOLIN AND RENARIN AKGBVHJAEK.JFGHAJK.GHJ.AKSGHJK.ASGH when suddenly I found out he’s not planning to hurt them, unless he’s lying. Huh. Oh his name’s Zahel. Oh. He might not be Darkness….but they specifically mention the cheek scar, Kaladin can’t figure his age but thinks seventy is too young. Huh.

Renarin has to be chosen by a master. Please, Kaladin, take him and have him learn the ways of the spear and be buddies. /dreamswithnochance

Hahaha Rock’s the only one not strange. WOAHAOWAHWOAHOWHAofhiohoawefhakusdhfauk.fhawe.ufhUSILHGLUFHLIAUFHAWEUILFHLAWUI EFHAWKHTF,WUFHUAWEJ,FHAWEFWEAWE,FAWE,UFH SYL ADMITS SHE’S A PIECE OF A GOD SO VERY, VERY LIGHTLY BRANDON WHY DO YOU TORMENT ME AAAGH,A,JKSHGSGH,SDJFGH

You know, there’s a strange feeling of my chest. It’s kinda like dreams being crushed, and it’s not even about anything specific. Just the casual way in which all the reveals are given.

Darkness – Zahel took on Renarin. Interesting.

DKLBUHJSDFKBVHJKSFDBHSDJKFLBHSDFKLBHSDLFJBHSDFJKBHSLDFJK BRANDON NO BRANDON I LITERALLY JUST BANGED MY HANDS ALL OVER MY TABLE LIKE A KID HAVING A FIT, AND THEY STING SOMEWHAT. GAZ DESERTED THE ARMY. BRANDON WHY ARE YOU SO FLIPPANT WITH YOUR REVELATIONS!

Oh yeah, this should be before the last one chronologically, but he took Kaladin on too. Plus, he says they don’t have the right metaphors. Iiiiiinteresting.

AWWWW KALADIN’S TALKING TO DALINAR ABOUT AMARAM YEEEEEEAH.

Aaaand Dalinar didn’t listen so Kaladin’s going Vigilante. And I’m actually OK with this somewhat.

NIGHTFORM PREDICTING WHAT WILL BE…THAT’S WHERE THEY HAD VOIDBING=FUTURE TELLING OHHHHHH

Also I love how Elokohar loves Kaladin so much, haha.

The rail pulled free of the mountings…like they were falling up…

OK never mind mortar chipped at, carry on.

So decayform is like the lethal temptress….

Gaz spent some time around a lumberyard is all…huh…

This lot is crem, huh…bridgemen were crem…look where they got with a radiant leader.

What if there is something in Gaz’s darkness…

THERE IT IS AGAIN “’Spren are . . . power . . . shattered power. Power given thought by the perceptions of men. Honor, Cultivation, and  . . . and another. Fragments broken off.’ ’Another?’ Shallan prodded. […] ‘Odium’”

Huh, Cusicesh and the Nightwatcher are both considered spren. The Nightwatcher certainly isn’t, she’s Cultivation. I kinda like the theory that Cusicesh is an Adonalsium spren…

AHAHAHAHA Kaladin is more nervous getting on a horse than charging a shardbearer. YES.

Moash…guarding the balcony….Brandon!

Woah, slow down there epigraphs. Our gods were not who shattered these plains? Huhhhh….HUH…..

Huh, Eshonai is out on the plains…

I shouldn’t be drinking water whilst reading this, I almost spewed it out. The plain looks almost man-made…It IS…

WOAAAAAAH THERE. SHALLAN IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN SEE THE LIGHT AND IT’S HER MOTHER’S SOUL

SHALLAN MEETS BRIDGE FOUR LOL

KALADIN’S THERE YEEEEAH

SADEAS VIEWPOINT I SHOULD REALLY STOP WITH THE CAPS NOW.

Sadeas is going Mr. T here…

Hey Gaz is in this drawing.

400 or 500 pages later when I couldn’t record, here’s an overview:

IT’S SZETH AND HE’S ATTACKING AND KALADIN’S ARM NO NO NO NO NO HE HEALED IT! HE HEALED IT! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH

Shallan, give the man his boots back. Now.

YOU CAN MAKE NEW SHARDBLADES. WHAT. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH.

(One fight against four shardbearers later)

AMARAM LEADS THE RADIANTS. HECK NO, HECK NO, HECK. NO.

ARRESTED!?! YOU. NO. NO NO NO NO. KALADIN, YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION FOR VENGEANCE.

…That fleet story. THAT FLEET STORY. I KNEW there was a reason I liked Wit. I KNEW IT! THAT WAS AMAZING. IT’S….AMAZING.

I…I didn’t mean against Elkohar. Uhm…I don’t know…

You know, I always hate going back to Shallan chapters, my chapters right now are Kaladin > Adolin > Interludes > Shallan > Shallan flashbacks. I didn’t really like Shallan chapters in WoK either.

This interested in a madman…This interested in…Taln?

Also, I forgot, Kaladin mentions that the Braize is indeed that place…

Also, Eshonai’s interludes remind me somewhat of Marsh.

And now, at page 1015….

I…I…I…I…I…I have no words for this. It’s beyond bold, italics, caps, and even underlining. Brandon made the first ideal just so appropriate, and the second is just SO. DANG. GOOD. I mean, rivaling when Kaladin speaks the first ideal, it’s THAT GOOD. That shardblade summoning? MY WORD. Brandon. I literally clapped out loud when I read this. I….can’t even. OH man, OH man, OH MAN. I AM JUST…WOAH.

THE SHARDBLADES ARE SPREN! THE SHARDBLADES ARE SPREN, AND KALADIN’S IS SYL AND SHE JUST TURNED HERSELF INTO A SHARDSPEAR! YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!

IT’S A SHARDSHIELD! YES YES YES YES YES! I KEEP RUNNING OUT INTO THE KITCHEN AFTER CLOSING THIS DOCUMENT ONLY TO RETURN A FEW PAGES LATER!

I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON I KEPT THIS DOCUMENT OPEN. I KNEW IT. KNEW IT. I’M SITTING HERE, BLANKY LOOKING AT THIS SCREEN AS I TYPE. DARKNESS HAS NIGHTBLOOD. NIGHTBLOOD. I’M STARTING TO THINK WHAT’S-HIS-FACE THE TRAINER…ZAHEL…ISN’T DARKNESS. MY WORD, BRANDON, MY WORD. THIS IS…THIS IS…I…WOOOOOAH.

I JUST RE-READ THAT. I RE-READ THAT. HE GAVE SZETH NIGHTBLOOD. HE GAVE SZETH NIGHTBLOOD. SZETH HAS NIGHTBLOOD RIGHT NOW.

I thought it wouldn’t get crazier. I was wrong. Adolin KILLED SADEAS.

Also, the parshmen are the voidbringers, regardless of whether they want to be or not. I like how he made it one of their forms…

DALINAR JUST BONDED WITH THE STORMFATHER…HE DOESN’T HAVE A BLADE, BUT STILL!

TRUTHWATCHER IS THE FOURTH RADIANT ORDER. IT’S RENARIN. FEATHER IS HAVING SUCH A GOOD TIME RIGHT NOW!

YESYESYESYESYES HOID EPILOUGE YESYESYESYESYSE

JASNAH LIVES!?!?!?!!? WHAT!?!?!?!?!

THEY’RE WORKING TOGETHER WHAT!?!?!?!?!?

Words cannot say how fulfilling it was to read such unadulterated emotions so alike to my own when I read them myself.

 

So I obviously had a pretty different reaction from most of the forum.  I hated this book.  Brandon is my favorite living author and I have thoroughly enjoyed everything else he has written.  However, WoR just didn't do it for me.  Spoilers follow but I won't use the spoiler tag as the first post and subject point that out.

 

First, Jasnah's death... [snipped for length]

Yeah. It felt more like a second rate TV series than the exquisite book that WoK was. It was an incredible let down for me, but it adds to the lore and Realmatics, so not all is wasted.

 

Since I don't want to get accidentally spoiled on the 17thshard forums, I'll put my reactions here on a text document... [snipped for length]

Holy crap, you're like the Sherlock of the cosmere. If you have any Realmatic theories, I'll be following them without much convincing.

 

Well the Diagram does account for the Knights Radiant - or, at least, for Surgebinders. And the sterilization of undesirable people actually is a fantastic idea for society. Think about it - for hundreds of thousands of years, it's been a struggle for human beings to survive. Only the strongest did. Now, in the last few hundred years, life has become a cake-walk. You can be a drug addict with six children by four different men with no job and just expect a government handout. In the past, this sort of person would have died. Now we support them, and it's bad for the species. In fact, not only has Survival of the Fittest been worked around - we go to great lengths to ensure the survival of our physical and intellectual inferior. It may be trendy to say, "Oh, yeah, that guys evil! How mean of him to want to better the lives of those who deserve it at the expense of those who don't rather than better the lives of those who don't deserve it at the expense of those who do! What a terrible guy!" But the fact is, it would be inarguably better for the species if the dregs of society were removed.

Wow. People are really short-sighted on these forums. You posted a completely valid point speaking of Darwinism applied to mankind and got 6 dislikes?! 

 

He doesn't believe it himself guys, he's just talking about it. As Aristotle said, "it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain an idea without accepting it." That's what he's doing. That's what you're not.

Edited March 19, 2014 by FeatherWriter
Welcome to the forums. Please don't double (or quadruple) post. Use the edit and multi-quote buttons for multiple responses, please!

[El Shardo]

Shallan being the one to kill her mother was predictable, but I'd always assumed it would have been some sort of accident rather than the result of her mother being a bit crazy. Very cool twist.

 

But at the same time, if the mother wanted to genuinly harm Shallan then I find it hard to believe one of the brothers wouldn't have remembered, especially the older one.

[El Shardo]

   

Well the Diagram does account for the Knights Radiant - or, at least, for Surgebinders. And the sterilization of undesirable people actually is a fantastic idea for society. Think about it - for hundreds of thousands of years, it's been a struggle for human beings to survive. Only the strongest did. Now, in the last few hundred years, life has become a cake-walk. You can be a drug addict with six children by four different men with no job and just expect a government handout. In the past, this sort of person would have died. Now we support them, and it's bad for the species. In fact, not only has Survival of the Fittest been worked around - we go to great lengths to ensure the survival of our physical and intellectual inferior. It may be trendy to say, "Oh, yeah, that guys evil! How mean of him to want to better the lives of those who deserve it at the expense of those who don't rather than better the lives of those who don't deserve it at the expense of those who do! What a terrible guy!" But the fact is, it would be inarguably better for the species if the dregs of society were removed.

 

Not at all, the 'dregs' are still part of society, killing them would be like stabbing yourself. And that's the mark of passionate society, we find ways to provide sustanance even for those who make decisions which would normally lead them to death and suffering.

[frozndevl]

Finished last night, awesome!

 

I tend to read books without thinking of bigger pictures, but I am proud to say about a chapter into the book I had figured out the Spren were shardblades. I don't know if that was a theory I had read here before, but yay. I just thought that they would go inanimate instead of retaining their forms. 

 

Also, holy crap nightblood!!!

[ccstat he/him]

I liked it a lot, but was also disappointed with some things. Mostly predicted by the epilogues: my issues came when either foreshadowing stole the novelty or my expectations were too high.

 

I absolutely loved the moments that broke expectations, demonstrating that the world or magic were larger than I thought. This includes the moment when Pattern suggests Shallan "soulcast" the deserters into better people, the clairvoyant drawings Shallan does of Yalb and Shallash, and the huge differences between the various KR orders. Oh, and the ever-expanding number of secret societies (seriously, everyone and their axehound belongs to some shady group).

 

Additional scenes I loved even more than the others: boots, nightblood, Eshonai's mom, and Veil's meeting at the pavilion.

I also really liked seeing Shallan/Veil analyze subtext to conversations, demonstrating that she is actually clever, not just mouthy.

 

I felt cheated that Renarin and Mr T got so little face-time. There was clearly a lot happening with both of them, and the story felt deliberately constructed to show as little of either as possible.

 

My biggest disappointment was that Kaladin's arc seemed too obvious. As soon as Syl "died" I thought, "Oh, but he'll just fix that by speaking the next oath." It was hard for me to take his loss seriously when it never seemed permanent. On a reread, when nothing needs to be surprising, I'll probably appreciate his journey a lot more.

When his arm got sliced in the first Szeth appearance I was shocked and intrigued. It was a huge setback for his character. But he only had to deal with it for about 4 pages, and only about 30 seconds, before stormlight came in and fixed everything. This was my feeling for much of the book, that the costs to the characters were too low or too temporary. Nobody important stayed dead, or injured, or anything. Each instance made sense, but overall the heroes' accomplishments were cheapened.

Edited March 22, 2014 by ccstat

[Moogle]

When his arm got sliced in the first Szeth appearance I was shocked and intrigued. It was a huge setback for his character. But he only had to deal with it for about 4 pages, and only about 30 seconds, before stormlight came in and fixed everything. This was my feeling for much of the book, that the costs to the characters were too low or too temporary. Nobody important stayed dead, or injured, or anything. Each instance made sense, but overall the heroes' accomplishments were cheapened.

 

I had forgotten entirely about this! Kaladin losing his arm would have been a shocking twist and require character development from him as he could no longer use a spear properly. It did feel a bit "cheap". Oh man, what I wouldn't give for some sort of alternate universe WoR where Kaladin has to deal with that. Dalinar could have died to Szeth, Shallan would have had many more difficulties with her secret societies... we could call it "A Song of Storm and Light" or something.  Maybe not quite as brutal as ASOIAF, but I would be very interested in reading SA books that are darker.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I apologize now to everyone else who has posted their thoughtful reactions. I have only read a few of them, but I will now proceed to post my own, and rudely hope you read them. I actually don't really care whether you read them or not. I just need somewhere to spew.

 

~~~~

 

Well. I am likely about the last person on this site to finish the book. Ten points to me for savoring.

 

Initial reaction: Storm you, Brandon. You just managed to follow up one of the best books I have ever read with what may very well be the best book I've ever read.

 

IMHO, Words of Radiance is without a doubt a better book than The Way of KIngs. As much as it loved WoK, it had some flaws in pace and structure, namely relating to the way Dalinar and Shallan, she in particular, fit in to the narrative.

 

WoR is a much more cohesive novel. It has much more of a single plot, and that was the biggest problem with WoK, IMO. The fact that Shallan was there on the Shattered Plains for most of the book, that there was actual interaction between the main characters before the last 50 pages of the book, makes WoR feel much better. It is extremely solid, in that respect.

 

Shallan really came into her own in this book, as did Adolin. They were my least favorite characters in WoK, but now I love them in every way. We really needed to have Shallan's past to understand her. Even though she as well lived without it up until the end of WoR, she was actively hiding from it. She knew what happened, and it was always on her mind in some form, but we were missing that piece of her. We are now able to comprehend Shallan fully and love her for it, and feel for her.

 

Adolin's change was less profound, really I just feel Brandon got him more accurately. There was something missing in WoK, and I don't really know what, but WoR definitely got him right. I also loved the growing relationship between him and Kaladin. That was one of the best parts of the novel to experience, particularly in the relatively slow way I experienced it.

 

I was initially sad at Dalinar's being sort of sidelined for the entire middle 800 pages or so, but now I don't really mind it. We didn't need to see everything that happened with him.

 

I continue to love Kaladin. He is still the best character Brandon has created. This book only made him better. He has entered the ranks of of my favorite fictional characters ever. The whole sequence with him losing Syl and having to discover what was the best choice to make regarding Elhokar is perfect. I had worried that Kaladin might become a bit drier, since book 1 gave him a solid arc, but this book did even more. The line, "The king was Elhokar's Tien" really got to me.

 

The sequence of him and Shallan trapped in the chasms was also beautiful, probably my favorite part of the book (other than the end, of course). Very emotional. Perfect.

 

So, finally, I get to that ending.

 

Yay Renarin! You're a Radiant! I really hope he can Lightweave himself. I suspect, however, that his form of it will be different than Shallan's. The rest of you have probably already done all the speculating on that, but I came straight here so I wouldn't know.

 

So... Zahel... You're Vasher. That is amazing. I forgot how much I liked Vasher.

 

And Szeth. You're a Skybreaker. That's pretty cool too. But even cooler, Nightblood.

 

I may have had greater chills reading that scene than in any other book ever. Period.

 

Dalinar... I don't quite get this. Is the Stormfather his spren? Because that is kind of screwed up if so.

 

Thank you, Adolin. Sadeas is gone.

 

Jasnah, what did you even do??????

 

Oh Wit, always in the right place at the right time.

 

Gotta love The Lopen. He shall never be referred to as simply Lopen ever again. Always The Lopen.

 

Moash! Storm you!!!!

 

Taravangian, I really like you. You are cool. The Diagram is literally one of the coolest ideas ever.

 

And finally, I hate Amaram.

 

Also, is there any relation between Mraize and Braize?

 

Also, random thing I though was wicked cool: Braize is Damnation.

[kes_]

Coming out of lurking - Just finished second reading...

 

On the first reading I hated the book. On the second, I started to like some of it...

 

First, the bad, unforgivable sins:

 

The racial undertones of the book really creep me out. The bad, black people and the noble Aryans who will save everyone is just a trope that should never be expounded on for an epic series. I understand the eye colour analogy that Kaladin has agnozied over endlessly over the series, but even so, it still is just too much and a bit beyond the "pale".

 

Don't kill off characters and resurrect them. It is annoying and the worst sort of deus ex machina. I think it is fine to occasionally kill of a main character, it means the stakes are really high and makes you want to root for your favourites, but to bring them back at the end just undercuts all of that entirely. Jasnah is so one-dimensional it almost hurts (I suspect she has Aspergers), and Szeth played out his role - so losing them made sense.

 

Second, the mediocre - the characterizations:

 

Kaladin should have more depth. He is defined by his one conflict of hating lighteyes and Amaram and now that is gone, so what sort of interest as a character will he have remaining?

 

Shallan isn't a cohesive character: she is super-intelligent; her "wit" is shallow, obvious and annoying; a Radiant; ruthless; far too capable without any life-experience, etc. 

 

Jasnah is a typical Brandon Sanderson atheist strawman. I know he loves putting them in there to expound on grade school philosophy endlessly page after page...

 

Third, the good:

 

I like the way Taravangian and the Ghostbloods are the "ends justify the means" group, much like Amaram. The idea of his compassion and intellect being on a see-saw makes it pretty interesting as well. I'd love to see it carry through the entire series, but I suspect they will be in open conflict with the Radiants most of the time with resolution before the end.

 

Some of the fight scenes are pretty well written, especially those with Kaladin and Szeth.

 

Anyway, overall a pretty decent read, but not as good as WoR.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Welcome to the forum Kes! Have an introductory upvote. Some of the things you mentioned bothered me at first too but I've grown to accept them upon my reread and pondering about them so perhaps I can persuade you of their necessity in the book.

The racial undertones of the book really creep me out. The bad, black people and the noble Aryans who will save everyone is just a trope that should never be expounded on for an epic series. I understand the eye colour analogy that Kaladin has agnozied over endlessly over the series, but even so, it still is just too much and a bit beyond the "pale".

I think it more likely the idea of eyes getting brighter (just as the skin shines) was just a natural aesthetic aspect that developed as Brandon thought about what stormlight does to the Radiants. The idea for the "racial" divide came into being as he thought about how something like that would effect the culture. It's not so much something he added to create a racial divide but rather a result he knew would occur in their society based on his understanding of how society works.
 

Don't kill off characters and resurrect them. It is annoying and the worst sort of deus ex machina. I think it is fine to occasionally kill of a main character, it means the stakes are really high and makes you want to root for your favourites, but to bring them back at the end just undercuts all of that entirely. Jasnah is so one-dimensional it almost hurts (I suspect she has Aspergers), and Szeth played out his role - so losing them made sense.

I personally feel he "killed" Jasnah because it was the only solution to her plotline. Her trip through shadesmar obviously involves quite a bit of exposition including various debates with Highspren. He already broke the press with his page count so there just wasn't room to include her story. Having her disappear 7 chapters in and people wonder the whole rest of the book "what the heck is Jasnah up to" just wasn't a good solution. Having everyone think she was dead was a good way to wrap up her story until we can get more information in the next books. Plus, he did lay some hints that she wasn't actually dead. I was convinced the whole book that she was in shadesmar so wasn't surprised at the end when she showed up.

As for Szeth, Brandon actually admitted at a signing that he wished he could go back and not have Kaladin administer the killing blow. Seeing as Szeth is likely to be a skybreaker and the next book is dedicated to him, I doubt he played out his role. He's only just getting started

Edited March 24, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[Moogle]

The racial undertones of the book really creep me out. The bad, black people and the noble Aryans who will save everyone is just a trope that should never be expounded on for an epic series. I understand the eye colour analogy that Kaladin has agnozied over endlessly over the series, but even so, it still is just too much and a bit beyond the "pale".

 

The Alethi look like they're half-Chinese (epicanthic fold) half-Indian (with their tan skin). Black hair is the ideal. So... I'm not sure I can agree with calling them Aryan in any sense at all. As for bad black people, the Azish are black too and don't seem to be terrible. I do agree more with the Parshendi bit, though. Giving them black skin and then making them villains can definitely be seen as a negative racial undertone. I just never really shared your feelings here, though.

 

Jasnah is a typical Brandon Sanderson atheist strawman. I know he loves putting them in there to expound on grade school philosophy endlessly page after page...

 

I'm not sure I agree with you here. The only bit that I can recall being handled with anything less than tact that I can can think of is when she was talking with Wit at the end about God being in the hearts of men (whatever that was supposed to mean). She's generally portrayed as competent, right, and moral/just (killing the three thugs in the alley). It's just Shallan's rather silly PoV that makes her look anything else, and as we've seen, Shallan is something of a hypocrite when it comes to her condemning Jasnah there. I felt that TWoK made it quite clear that Shallan was a silly naive scared girl, and WoR didn't really change my opinion there (though Shallan's sudden super competence at spying was very annoying). You do have a point on the philosophy bit, though.

[Capnfury]

I finished the book a few days ago but have been thinking over it before posting. In fact, I think this is my first post on here although I may have posted some back when the BS forums were on his own website. Brandon has changed forever how I read novels and even his least favorite books I find more appealing than many others out there. WoR was below WoK for me in many ways but this highs in this book were higher than they were in WoK. I just want to address a few things in the books instead of retreading common ground.

 

1. Kaladin's conflict - I loved that I hated it. Kaladin made me so mad I want to slap him. I've heard people upset about Kaladin seeming to regress or have a this conflict after he seemed to "get better" after WoK but it makes total sense to me.

 

For a long time I lived very poor in a very rich area and saw very rich people ignore and sometimes abuse those less fortunate. In their daily course of living they developed a condescending attitude towards others without even knowing it and it started to affect me in nearly the same way it affect Kaladin. Is conflict is anything but superficial or forced and I could see why it would be something so hard for him to overcome that he would inadvertently forsake his previous oaths.

 

2. Pacing - This is how I would split up the book

 

first 15% - interesting

next 30% - borderline boring

next 30% - painful and frustrating

last 25% - pure awesome

 

I really struggled with that section in the middle-ish. Shallan traveling through to the SP along with what was going on in the SP was a bit tedious for me at times and seemed overly long Overall the book ended up being fantastic with lots of hints here and there regarding the over-arching story line. I enjoyed seeing Shallan coming into her own exploring her abilities and the climax (although at times predictable down to the scene) was maybe the most exciting climax of any book I've read.

 

Shallan's story is too alien from my own life experiences for me to find her character as interesting as Kaladin and for that reason and the slowness through the early middle WoK still holds the top spot for me.

 

Waiting 14-16 years to get the rest of this story may kill me.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Capnfury

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

The Alethi look like they're half-Chinese (epicanthic fold) half-Indian (with their tan skin). Black hair is the ideal. So... I'm not sure I can agree with calling them Aryan in any sense at all. As for bad black people, the Azish are black too and don't seem to be terrible. I do agree more with the Parshendi bit, though. Giving them black skin and then making them villains can definitely be seen as a negative racial undertone. I just never really shared your feelings here, though.

 

I agree with you for the most part Moogle, but to be fair, their skin isn't just black, it's black and red marbled pattern. Their armored carapace is described as orange or crimson. 

 

There is also the quote from tWoK from Dalinar: "Yet their faces--marbled black or white and red--looked so human." (tWoK pg. 381, locations 6944 Kindle Edition). 

 

I think because they are a proposed villain and mostly described as having black and crimson skin, that is what most people latch onto when thinking of the Parshmen/Parshendi. 

[Hobbes]

Is anyone else interested in Zahel's (Vasher) reaction when he sees Nightblade?  Which I'm assuming is happening at some point. Because otherwise, screw you Brandon Sanderson for bringing two characters from Warbreaker that are acquainted into Roshar, and then not acquainting them in Roshar.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Hobbes

[Aleksiel]

The racial undertones of the book really creep me out. The bad, black people and the noble Aryans who will save everyone is just a trope that should never be expounded on for an epic series. I understand the eye colour analogy that Kaladin has agnozied over endlessly over the series, but even so, it still is just too much and a bit beyond the "pale".

 

Mm, I strongly disagree with you here.

 

Parshendi are an entirely different species with black/white and red skin, so there's nothing racist here be definition. If you are looking for dark-skinned peoples, I suggest you consider Azish, Emuli and Makabaki rather than look at another species. 

 

I am not sure who you refer to as 'Aryan'. Alethi just don't have the physical traits for this. Do you mean the Knights Radiant? Their skin color doesn't change; they start to glow when they infuse themselves, which is very different. Glowing=/=white. If you consider pale eye color racist, I think you are taking it too far.

 

Kaladin has problem with (those who abuse) authority even though he still hasn't realized it and mistakes it for a matter of eye color. What's more, eye color sets different classes within the same ethnicity, so the issue is no way race orientated. 

[BrindIf]

The Alethi have a "race" issue, as eyes color is hereditery and associate with higher positions in the society.

But I don't see it as undermining the story or being commun, on the contrary it is one of the dimension of the novels I look forward to, especially from a fan of Victor Hugo. As long as the rulers are fair and honorable, is it OK to have a class of rulors and a class of inferiors?

Mistborn spoiler:

It was present in Mistborn too, with the Skaa class, but the main caracters were half-blood, and thus, the question of "is a race more legitimate to rule that the other" was not really solved.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

The Alethi have a "race" issue, as eyes color is hereditery and associate with higher positions in the society.

But I don't see it as undermining the story or being commun, on the contrary it is one of the dimension of the novels I look forward to, especially from a fan of Victor Hugo. As long as the rulers are fair and honorable, is it OK to have a class of rulors and a class of inferiors?

Mistborn spoiler:

It was present in Mistborn too, with the Skaa class, but the main caracters were half-blood, and thus, the question of "is a race more legitimate to rule that the other" was not really solved.

 

I mean to be "fair" the eye color thing is obviously a hold over of the KR surgebinding and slow eye transformation related to the Shards. I wonder if eye color changed by Surgebinding or bonding with a Shardblade is hereditary or not...

 

I thought that was shown to be a fallacy by the fact that Elend and his cohorts couldn't tell the difference in the crew (namely Dox) and noblemen? Dox wasn't a half skaa was he? he wasn't a misting...

[Moogle]

Aha! I finally hit on one of those things I felt really uncomfortable with on my reread.

 

So... Eshonai agrees to meet with Dalinar for peacetalks (one of the most important meetings possible). She says Venli is too important to the Parshendi to have her try out stormform, so that she has to do it. But... she's trying for peacetalks, and knows how amazing it would be if they succeeded (which they might have), so her earlier objection about Venli being too important applies equally to her as well. She fails to recognize this, and heads into the highstorm to take on stormform.

 

So she meets with Dalinar, and stormform influences her to the point where she tells him they're going to fight one side is all dead.

 

Because of this, Dalinar feels completely justified in continuing the Alethi's vengeance war against the Parshendi. His conscience is clean. They get to yell all gloriously at the end that Gavilar is avenged as they kill the evil Voidbringers.

 

Just... I feel really uncomfortable with this. It feels incredibly convenient for Dalinar, and feels like Brandon just realized this might be a problem, and so he had to fix the the obvious moral issues with the entire war. Urgh. Really didn't like this part. It feels icky. I think this (along with Kaladin protecting Elhokar) is why I felt vaguely uncomfortable for the entire last half of WoR.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Aha! I finally hit on one of those things I felt really uncomfortable with on my reread.

 

 

I agree with what you say about Eshonai and I'd like to add the fact Parshendi started the war trying to stop their gods from returning only to summon them in the end on their own. It was both ironic and unsettling. Something about it feels off, but I can't quite figure a way to put it into a coherent sentence.

 

How did Venli find the kind of spren they used anyway and why didn't anyone bother to ask her any questions about these spren? Was it never explained or did I miss it?

[Moogle]

How did Venli find the kind of spren they used anyway and why didn't anyone bother to ask her any questions about these spren? Was it never explained or did I miss it?

 

It's implied in an Eshonai chapter that Venli had previously taken stormform (before Eshonai, I mean). It seems likely that she was corrupted in her search for new forms, possibly taking something like stormform before, or some other form that let the listener gods control her and influence her to manipulate the entirety of the Parshendi into Voidbringers. The epigraphs imply that once the gods start controlling you, you can shift to other forms and they will keep control of you. (The epigraphs say that the gods gave them war form and other forms and had them use it.)

[Aleksiel]

...

 

True, but that's not what I asked.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

True, but that's not what I asked.

 

It is never explicitly explained, no. Only said that she had discovered it in her research and had taken it before offering it to the 5

[BrindIf]

I mean to be "fair" the eye color thing is obviously a hold over of the KR surgebinding and slow eye transformation related to the Shards. I wonder if eye color changed by Surgebinding or bonding with a Shardblade is hereditary or not...

 

I thought that was shown to be a fallacy by the fact that Elend and his cohorts couldn't tell the difference in the crew (namely Dox) and noblemen? Dox wasn't a half skaa was he? he wasn't a misting...

 

The fact that the eye color segregation has a legitimate origin doesn't change the fact that the present society is unfairly unequal. Ability to be a good ruler is obviously not hereditary.

 

Your question is interresting. And if Moash give up his Shards without being killed (which I doubt will happen), would he become darkeyed again?

 

Mistborn spoiler:

He, I forgot about Dox. I don't know if he had noble blood, but he certainly had the non-magical capacities of one.

What I remember is that in the rural Skaa, none would stand up for itself, and Keilser and the others would be the ones to take the decisions.

[kes_]

Oh, so since they are a different species (or maybe it is because they have some red to them), it is fine to enslave them? Frankly, part of me was rooting for the Parshmen to rise up and slaughter the slavers (i.e. all of the Alethi, etc.) since the entire society is basically built on it. But, of course, let's make them also evil so it is all justified in the end:

 

"This defect of character would alone justify enslaving him, if he is to remain here. In Africa or the West Indies, he would become idolatrous, savage and cannibal..."

 

Mm, I strongly disagree with you here.

 

Parshendi are an entirely different species with black/white and red skin, so there's nothing racist here be definition. If you are looking for dark-skinned peoples, I suggest you consider Azish, Emuli and Makabaki rather than look at another species. 

 

I am not sure who you refer to as 'Aryan'. Alethi just don't have the physical traits for this. Do you mean the Knights Radiant? Their skin color doesn't change; they start to glow when they infuse themselves, which is very different. Glowing=/=white. If you consider pale eye color racist, I think you are taking it too far.

 

Kaladin has problem with (those who abuse) authority even though he still hasn't realized it and mistakes it for a matter of eye color. What's more, eye color sets different classes within the same ethnicity, so the issue is no way race orientated. 

[Aleksiel]

Oh, so since they are a different species (or maybe it is because they have some red to them), it is fine to enslave them? 

 

That's not what I wrote, nor was an implication of some sort.