WoR Chapter 84 code

[Aminar]

Peter, you have one more post to 666. Make it evil.

[Lomeon]

The zero-width spaces in the ebook are there just to make the paragraph reflow without the ebook reader adding hyphens. They and their placement don't have anything to do with the code.

Ok, so the code itself is the 154 character string of Arabic numerals.

 

I would also like to rule our any self-referential ideas such as page numbers.

[Aminar]

Ok, so the code itself is the 154 character string of Arabic numerals.

 

I would also like to rule our any self-referential ideas such as page numbers.

Page numbers yes, but I wouldn't rule out self referential things entirely. They would be odd, but Taravangian was pretty smart... Easily as smart as Reed Richards and his fourth wall breaching.

[Lomeon]

Page numbers yes, but I wouldn't rule out self referential things entirely. They would be odd, but Taravangian was pretty smart... Easily as smart as Reed Richards and his fourth wall breaching.

I'm comfortable giving him Hari Seldon level abilities to predict the future using probabilities (many of the things he says already sound similar to Seldon predictions), but not fourth wall breaching. I can't imagine Brandon writing him addressing anything out of universe, let alone revealing acknowledgement that he's a character written in a book.

[Pattern he/him]

A little bit back to glyphs, whether it's useful or not: I skimmed a bit through WoR and found the 10 basic glyphs (they are on Elhokars Shardsword) on page 513. (Shallan's sketchbook: Shardplate).

 

On the other hand stanzas of Parshendi songs reminded me somehow of the code, but I cannot grasp it properly. Have to look into that somewhen during the weekend.

 

p 211; 15th stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 219;  5th stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 227; 19th stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 233; 27th stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 246; final stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 258; 69th stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 272; 90th stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 279; 33rd stanza; Listener Song of Listing

p 286; 4th stanza; Listener Song of Winds

p 298; 17th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets

p 303; 27th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets

p 314; 127th stanza; Listener Songof Histories

p 325; 55th stanza; Listener Song of Wars

p 338; 40th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets

p 346; 279th stanza; Listener Song of Revision

p 355; 12th stanza; Listener Song of Histories

p 362; 51th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets

p 368; 9th stanza; Listener Song of Spren

p 377; 10th stanza; Listener Song of Spren

p 385; final stanza; Listener Song of Secrets

Edited March 7, 2014 by Pattern

[Krenn]

if we break it up into two-number sets, there are 35 unique number pairs, which is about right for a-z and 1-9, or a-z and several punctuation symbols.

it would also make sense for any code scheme that uses 6x6 grid tables...

[Fric]

if we break it up into two-number sets, there are 35 unique number pairs, which is about right for a-z and 1-9, or a-z and several punctuation symbols.

it would also make sense for any code scheme that uses 6x6 grid tables...

You may be on to something here. Maybe us the Alethi alphabet which I believe is 25 characters and then you get 0-9 as well which can represent all numbers? 

 

Though I'm not sure the Alethi alphabet would be applicable here since he says he created a new script of his own.  Also would he even us that alphabet as he himself is not Alethi, not sure if they use the same alphabet.

[Leiyan she/her]

I think there is really only one epigraph that important to breaking the code:

 

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1
(chpt 83)

 

This is from the same location as the code (Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation) and, like the number sequence of chpt 84, it is called a pattern.  Every single other epigraph (except chpt 84) is described as a "paragraph."  So, what is the pattern of this epigraph? and can we apply that pattern to the Chpt 84 code?

 

Also...why is it called a Rotation?  Was it originally written in a circular fashion?  Would it start from the center and spiral out, with the 2-15th rotations following, or would each pattern be written in a separate circular piece?

 

edit:  I also saw a copy of this epigraph elsewhere in this thread, but it included punctuation... I just double checked, and there is no punctuation in the chpt 83 epigraph.  So I don't think we need to code for punctuation in the chpt 84 code either.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Leiyan

[Armless writer he/him]

What about taking out the large ketek and try to decode them separately

[Everstorm]

This "Rotation" stinks of a Caesar cipher to me. For example, the Caesar cipher where you replace A->N etc. is called ROT13. Since we have numbers here instead of alphabets, it obviously has another layer of encryption on it, but keeping a shift of 15 in mind when looking at string frequencies etc. might prove useful.

[eshonai she/her]

Could the 'ketek' be a Vorin proper name?

 

EDIT: on further inspection, it seems unlikely.

Edited March 8, 2014 by eshonai

[Harakeke]

1118251011127124915121010111410215117112101112171344

8311107151425414341091614914934121225410101251271015

19101112341255115251215755111234101112915121061534

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjOZtWZ56lc

Edited March 8, 2014 by Harakeke

[Pattern he/him]

Also...why is it called a Rotation?  Was it originally written in a circular fashion?  Would it start from the center and spiral out, with the 2-15th rotations following, or would each pattern be written in a separate circular piece?

 

 

In fact I have already written the number on a piece of paper in spiral fashion to look what happens. Unfortunately this is much more arbitrary that the breaking up to number pairs or whatever. Going this path I could create a lot of pictures to decorate my room ;-)

 

Going back to pattern1 and pattern 15: In pattern 1 there are capital letters for the beginning of a new sentence or in proper names. One could write every sentence in a new line .At the beginning of the thread, 111 has been identified as suspicious. It could be the marker for a new sentence or a captial letter. Writing both patterns like this yield:

 

Obviously they are fools

The Desolation needs no usher

It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon

The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack

It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

 

111

      82-5 -10

111

      27-12-49-15-12-10-10

111

      41-02-15-11-71-12-10

111

      21-71-34-48-3

111

      07-15-14-25-41-43-41-09-16-14-91-49-34-12-12-25-41-01-01-25-12-71-01-51-9-10

111

      23-41-25-51-15-25-12-15-75-5

111

      23-4 -10

111

      29-15-12-10-61-53-4

 

In pattern 15, obviously not every 111 can denote a new sentence. And perhaps "10" end a sentence.

It's a bit flawed, since there is a double "10" and there are some "111"s not preceded by a "10".

Palindromes/possible keteks are also destroyed in this point of view.

I don't really like this decomposition, since there are sometimes residual numbers, sometimes not.

 

Doing the line break only if 111 is preceded by 10 yields:

 

111

      825 -10

111

      271249151210-10

111

      410215117112-10

111

      217134483111071514254143410916149149341212254101012512710151910

111

      2341255115251215755111234 -10

111

      2915121061534

 

Another aspect could be that we actuallly have a mathematical series. One of Taravangians intelligence tests?

Description of cryptics before bonding a human? (reference p.888 hardcover)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Pattern

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Do we know what language he would have written in? Glyphs? Stormwarden? Alethi? Thaylen? Would he have written like a female or male?

[Krenn]

In fact I have already written the number on a piece of paper in spiral fashion to look what happens. Unfortunately this is much more arbitrary that the breaking up to number pairs or whatever. Going this path I could create a lot of pictures to decorate my room ;-)

 

Going back to pattern1 and pattern 15: In pattern 1 there are capital letters for the beginning of a new sentence or in proper names. One could write every sentence in a new line .At the beginning of the thread, 111 has been identified as suspicious. It could be the marker for a new sentence or a captial letter. Writing both patterns like this yield:

 

Obviously they are fools

The Desolation needs no usher

It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon

The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack

It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

 

111

      82-5 -10

111

      27-12-49-15-12-10-10

111

      41-02-15-11-71-12-10

111

      21-71-34-48-3

111

      07-15-14-25-41-43-41-09-16-14-91-49-34-12-12-25-41-01-01-25-12-71-01-51-9-10

111

      23-41-25-51-15-25-12-15-75-5

111

      23-4 -10

111

      29-15-12-10-61-53-4

 

In pattern 15, obviously not every 111 can denote a new sentence. And perhaps "10" end a sentence.

It's a bit flawed, since there is a double "10" and there are some "111"s not preceded by a "10".

Palindromes/possible keteks are also destroyed in this point of view.

I don't really like this decomposition, since there are sometimes residual numbers, sometimes not.

 

Doing the line break only if 111 is preceded by 10 yields:

 

111

      825 -10

111

      271249151210-10

111

      410215117112-10

111

      217134483111071514254143410916149149341212254101012512710151910

111

      2341255115251215755111234 -10

111

      2915121061534

 

Another aspect could be that we actuallly have a mathematical series. One of Taravangians intelligence tests?

Description of cryptics before bonding a human? (reference p.888 hardcover)

doing it like that, it almost looks like a book code, where we look up pages and word counts... or maybe a chapter code, with chapter and word count.  chapter would make more sense, since the ebook and paperback editions would use different print layouts.

There are 89 numbered chapters, and the largest number at the beginning of a line is 82...

i did some preliminary experiments, but i didn't get anything intelligible by counting words. however, with epigrams, chapter titles, and headers, like '5 years ago', it's easy to mess up the word count.  I think our best bet is to focus on the longest single string, and see if we can force that to make sense, either as a book code, or as something else.

 

111

      07-15-14-25-41-43-41-09-16-14-91-49-34-12-12-25-41-01-01-25-12-71-01-51-9-10

i entered the first 150 words from chapter 7, then used a spreadsheet to count out the words, using various criteria for where to start counting, and what constituted a word. none of my results made any sense.  as such, i conclude that if this IS a book code, it's not based on chapters.  i supposed it MIGHT be based somehow on the epigrams from The Diagram, but i haven't tried to test that yet.

my results from chapter 7:

 

start with Title rain unexpected me of  kholin of  my breaking unexpected she Shallan this like like me of  open open me like in open she my loss start with epigraph from breaking death kholin 1175 kholin brought a breaking to she crushed unexpected unexpected death kholin I I death unexpected the I off brought like start with epigraph, ignore date from breaking death kholin still kholin brought a breaking her scrambled crushed unexpected unexpected death kholin I I death unexpected swat I her brought like from begining of actual chapter text of goblet it scent smoke scent her mostly goblet open her sent slapping slapping it scent still still it slapping the still disheveled her cot

start with epigraph, skip the attribution line

from breaking death she off she brought a breaking she'd goblet crushed unexpected unexpected death she I I death unexpected tumbling I mostly brought like

[hoidshore]

I would like to simplify some things based on the assumption that Brandon is not evil.

 

The pattern 1 message is given.

 

We need to break the pattern 15 message.

 

Brandon is not evil (would not require extreme lore like deciphering Alethi from small pictures).

 

The pattern one message is 310 characters (including spaces, but he's been trolling us or teaching us in that aspect).

 

The pattern 15 message is 154 chars including spaces.  So close to 310/2=155.  So close... but is he evil?

 

Capitals have been shown to be in the message. So, mod 52 (50 for the purists I guess, but we can adjust this later) was my first thought.
 

I wanted to ignore the frequencies of 1's and 0's but it's hard.  

 

We have the translated message from ceiling 2, pattern 1.  We need pattern 15,  May be a bad assumption that pattern 1 is every letter, but..  is pattern 15 every 15th letter, starting from... the second? the fifteenth?

 

Well played Brandon.  

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

I'm not gonna lie. I'm kind of disappointed in all of you.

I mean, it's been four whole days, and you still don't have this code cracked? Forshame!

No, but seriously. This has all been great work, everybody. I could never imagine doing something like this, I am nowhere near that awesome.
(Oh, and you are a very mean person, Mr. Sanderson)

[Satsuoni he/him]

I would like to simplify some things based on the assumption that Brandon is not evil.

 

Brandon may not be evil, but he listens to the whispers of Peter, who, on a bad day, might be.

That said, I am going to run some simulated annealing on the thing, and see what more gibberish would the thing spit in my face (assuming still English)

[Clowd]

I'm starting to think that it might be a simple substitution cipher with two interleaved messages.

 

If you take each pair of numbers as a letter, then you wind up with the following:

'11', '18', '25', '10', '11', '12', '71', '24', '91', '51', '21', '01', '01', '11', '41', '02', '15', '11', '71', '12', '10', '11', '12', '17', '13', '44', '83', '11', '10', '71', '51', '42', '54', '14', '34', '10', '91', '61', '49', '14', '93', '41', '21', '22', '54', '10', '10', '12', '51', '27', '10', '15', '19', '10', '11', '12', '34', '12', '55', '11', '52', '51', '21', '57', '55', '11', '12', '34', '10', '11', '12', '91', '51', '21', '06', '15', '34'

Now, there are 32 unique numbers in there, with the following frequencies:

'11': 10
'10': 9
'12': 8
'51': 5
'21': 4
'34': 4
'71': 3
'91': 3
'15': 3
'01': 2
'41': 2
'14': 2
'55': 2
'54': 2
'61': 1
'83': 1
'52': 1
'02': 1
'25': 1
'06': 1
'22': 1
'49': 1
'44': 1
'42': 1
'24': 1
'27': 1
'93': 1
'13': 1
'17': 1
'19': 1
'18': 1
'57': 1

now let's take every other number, leaving us with two groups:

Group 1:

'18', '10', '12', '24', '51', '01', '11', '02', '11', '12', '11', '17', '44', '11', '71', '42', '14', '10', '61', '14', '41', '22', '10', '12', '27', '15', '10', '12', '12', '11', '51', '57', '11', '34', '11', '91', '21', '15'

Group 2:

'11', '25', '11', '71', '91', '21', '01', '41', '15', '71', '10', '12', '13', '83', '10', '51', '54', '34', '91', '49', '93', '21', '54', '10', '51', '10', '19', '11', '34', '55', '52', '21', '55', '12', '10', '12', '51', '06', '34'

Now, Group 1 has a total of 22 unique numbers, while Group 2 has a total of 21 unique numbers.  This is much close to sounding like a simple substitution cipher!

 

Group 1's number frequency:

'11': 7
'12': 5
'10': 4
'15': 2
'14': 2
'51': 2
'61': 1
'24': 1
'27': 1
'21': 1
'22': 1
'44': 1
'42': 1
'41': 1
'02': 1
'01': 1
'71': 1
'91': 1
'17': 1
'18': 1
'57': 1
'34': 1

Group 2's number frequency:

'10': 5
'11': 3
'21': 3
'51': 3
'12': 3
'34': 3
'54': 2
'55': 2
'71': 2
'91': 2
'25': 1
'13': 1
'01': 1
'15': 1
'19': 1
'49': 1
'41': 1
'52': 1
'83': 1
'93': 1
'06': 1

Might be useful to refer to a frequency chart to help figure this out better - http://www.richkni.co.uk/php/crypta/freq.php

 

Python script here: http://pastebin.com/wC4m8DmL

(NOTE: this is by no means my best python script ever! just something I put together in a few minutes while pondering over this)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Clowd

[Satsuoni he/him]

That might be a good idea, actually. I'll check it out tomorrow if it is not solved by then

[shinintendo]

I think the key to solve this riddle lies here:

 

 

Ahbut theywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondBut wherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricityThey arewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwe craftaweapon

—From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first

 

I took the liberty to split the words up:

 

Ah ​but​ they​ were​ left​ behind ​It​ is ​obvious ​from​ the n​ature​ of​ the​ bond​ But​ where ​where ​where​ where​ Set off ​Obvious ​Realization ​like ​a​pricity​ They ​are​ with​ the​ Shin​ We ​must​ find​ one​ Can​ we​ make ​to​ use ​a​ Truthless ​Can​ we​ craft ​a ​weapon

 

1st clue - every second letter starting with the first-->every second letter in each word correspond with the number 1 or 1X

I intentionally interpret it so.

2nd clue - where x4 times, is there a pattern that repeat 4 times? or at the word "where" length?

3rd clue - the sentence is all mambo jambo, need to rebuild it completely to make sense.

4th clue - a​pricity​ is a strange sort of word, had to look up dictionary. prob not a clue lol.

 

Edit: Thanks Argent totally missed Floorboard 17: paragraph 2. 

now I'm sure both are a given to decipher.

Split up:

"There has to be an answer What is the answer Stop The Parshendi One of them Yes they are the missing piece Push for the Alethi to destroy them out right before this one obtains their power It will form a bridge"

 

1st clue - and every second letter starting with the second.

like last time, but with the 2 or 2x

2nd clue- "There has to be an answer What is the answer..." strange really.

Edited March 8, 2014 by shinintendo

[Argent he/him]

For reference, here are all of the Diagram epigraphs from Book 5 (written in a monospace font), organized by source:

 

[Words of Radiance] Book 5 Epigraphs

 

As a set of fresh eyes joining the puzzle-solving endeavor, I have a few things to say:

• Being given both Pattern 1 and Pattern 15 from the Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation makes it a hint in my eyes.
• The fact that those are the only two that are patterns (as opposed to paragraphs) makes it also a hint.
• This is one of the two sources that are referred to as "book of ..." - the other being Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer. There are three paragraphs from the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer, and at least the first two are thematically related; I posit that so is the third one. From this, I will work under the assumption that the two patterns from the Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation are also thematically related.
• The Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation is one of three sources with more than one epigraph attributed to them - the other being the aforementioned Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer and then Floorboard 17.
• This source is the only one with "rotation" in its name. There could be something here, but I don't see it. I was hoping that with some rotation we'll get a fully symmetric string, but I can't see any permutation where this works.

I think the way we are supposed to approach this is to start at pattern 1 and see what needs to be done to it to turn it into a string of numbers similar to pattern 15. One is obviously a letter-to-number substitution. Another is likely the removal of spaces, and maybe capital letters. We are missing at least one step, of course, but I would probably try to think this way. I am ready to discard the other epigraphs, except for maaaybe Floorboard 17; so splitting Pattern 15 could be another step we can take in decoding this. I doubt we'll need to come up with 15 steps, but if I wanted to encode something, this is the kind of path I would take - I would come up with a list of steps I want to go through during the encoding, and then provide hints for each one, or at least most of them in places where they wouldn't be obvious, but would be logical.

[Harakeke]

I still think the most important clues are the palindromes...

[Krenn]

As a set of fresh eyes joining the puzzle-solving endeavor, I have a few things to say:

• Being given both Pattern 1 and Pattern 15 from the Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation makes it a hint in my eyes.
• The fact that those are the only two that are patterns (as opposed to paragraphs) makes it also a hint.
• This is one of the two sources that are referred to as "book of ..." - the other being Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer. There are three paragraphs from the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer, and at least the first two are thematically related; I posit that so is the third one. From this, I will work under the assumption that the two patterns from the Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation are also thematically related.
• The Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation is one of three sources with more than one epigraph attributed to them - the other being the aforementioned Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer and then Floorboard 17.
• This source is the only one with "rotation" in its name. There could be something here, but I don't see it. I was hoping that with some rotation we'll get a fully symmetric string, but I can't see any permutation where this works.

I think the way we are supposed to approach this is to start at pattern 1 and see what needs to be done to it to turn it into a string of numbers similar to pattern 15. One is obviously a letter-to-number substitution. Another is likely the removal of spaces, and maybe capital letters. We are missing at least one step, of course, but I would probably try to think this way. I am ready to discard the other epigraphs, except for maaaybe Floorboard 17; so splitting Pattern 15 could be another step we can take in decoding this. I doubt we'll need to come up with 15 steps, but if I wanted to encode something, this is the kind of path I would take - I would come up with a list of steps I want to go through during the encoding, and then provide hints for each one, or at least most of them in places where they wouldn't be obvious, but would be logical.

 

I'm starting to agree with you.  Also, by my count, pattern 1 text is exactly 310 characters, including spaces, but without including the attribution, and pattern 15 text is exactly 155 characters, which is 310/2.

 

edit: oops, it's 154 characters. still, the point stands...

based on the other epigraphs, we may need to try to using every second letter from pattern 1.

I'm currently working on the theory that we're supposed to convert pattern 1 into numbers based on their position in the alphabet, then add or subtract those numbers with the numbers in pattern 15.

If anyone has a link to a really good program for automatically solving numeric substitution ciphers, that would certainly help

Edited March 8, 2014 by Krenn

[hoidshore]

I'm starting to agree with you.  Also, by my count, pattern 1 text is exactly 310 characters, including spaces, but without including the attribution, and pattern 15 text is exactly 155 characters, which is 310/2.

 

That's an amazing observation!